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Welcome to the world of knObs and hospital 'policy'You've done well to tell them what you've researched and not be cut off mid sentence in my book LMAO. It is complete and utter bull**** they way they carry on about it - I read a quote once that was something along the lines of 'obstetricians are the lunatic fringe of an otherwise normal world' and it couldn't be more true if you ask me.
Can't wait to hear the next installment Greg.
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Greg, awesome effort hun. If only there were more men like you in the world. My DP would have agreed if they said they had to cut my legs off to get the baby out.
I had to do all the standing up for myself on my own. No wonder I choose to birth at home for the last 2 babies.
I hope you and your wife have a beautiful birth. Can't wait to hear how it all goes for you both
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I remember my first pregnancy, I kept being told I had a "good sized baby in there", and I was actually scheduled for an induction on a certain date if he hadn't been born yet. This date just so happened to be around the time that I estimated I was due, but two weeks post dtaes as far as the docs were concerned (they moved my EDD forward two weeks at my 18 week ultrasound due to a "large baby" - I am only 5ft! And how your dates can be out by two weeks is beyond me!)
Anyway, I went into labour literally the night before this scheduled induction and birthed a 9lb 1oz baby boy, which none of the docs or midwives thought was possible considering my size. But while I was labouring, they kept trying to force an epidural onto me (I was very adamant about not having one) then they started threatening me that because it was the wee hours of the morning, the anethetist was about to go home, so it was my last chance - apparently I said good, let him go home! They started getting concerned that I was going to have to have a c-section, so they kept the poor guy around for nothing!!
Yes, I had drugs, and I let them do some stuff that I didn't really want (ie an episiotomy) but it was my first baby and I was uneducated.
Bravo for you and your wife researching ... IMO knowledge is power, even if sometimes it feels as though you are at a disadvantage because of it!
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Good on you Greg, Best of luck with the upcoming birth sounds like it'll be a quick one, Hope the blood pressure goes back down(Yours not your wifes). Bet you wanted to hit the midwifes & Ob heads against the wall!
Snoopea
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good old hunter health.
If the hospital is JHH, 5yrs ago when DH & I were expecting 1st bub we did the birthing condensed weekend class and got a tour of the birthing centre and labour ward.
the birthing centre had huge baths in the main birthing room and yellow curtains to make it look more like home.. the labour ward room had alot more metal around and my room came with a large bathroom with shower and toilet.. (no baths)
I heard from DH recently (as getting ready for no.2) that upon arriving to the front desk in the labour ward we were asked if birthing centre or labour ward... (even tho we had phoned ahead, you'd think they would know which???) perhaps we were given a choice... i opted labour ward positive id get the birth i wanted. And i pretty much did.
thanks for sharing, i was concerned as im pretty much doing my own care *sigh* and i swear the baby feels huge..all the best!
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Yes, it was John Hunter Hospital - and thank you to those comments since I was last here. Sorry for the delay - here's the update I promised in another thread. As you'll read, things happened soon after last posting here!
Well, as you can tell from my last message, I last posted in this thread about 2:30pm on 5th June. About 12 hours later, at 2:00am Friday 6th June, I was about to head off to bed - when my wife announced her membrane/water had broke. (I don't know what my wife has about early am births - but here we go again - just the same time as our first two children.) We live a distance from the hospital, so she went by ambulance, and I woke our children and got them ready to be picked up at the hospital to go elsewhere just for that night (I wish!).
Yes, bub was "due" 3rd July. So if the scans were accurate - (yeah right) - he was 4 weeks early. However, DW had recorded her periods for months and we had always thought he was 10 days older than the scans showed. Which would make him only about 18 days early. As we all know, anything from 37-42 is considered normal. (He was born at 36 weeks according to their date, but 37.5 weeks according to ours.)
The midwife did say, "His feet have less wrinkles than full-term babies." Of course his 3.3kg (7lb 4oz) weight wasn't over-sized after all(re: all the fuss & stress in the earlier messages above). But they still couldn't admit the almighty ultrasound might be inaccurate, saying, "Wow he would have been HUGE if he went "full term!" (Um... Yeah, right.)
My wife still isn't convinced...... but I think her labour was much easier than the previous two. When I arrived she was lying on her back!?
. Labour had not begun back at home, so I asked DW & midwife - have contractions started? "Yes." So I asked if she still had a long time to go. "No, bub will be here very soon." Ok - so is there a reason the bed has not been raised (so gravity could give a helping hand)? "No, no reason." Right - so I raised the bed.
Midwives/staff came and went as contractions increased and DW yelled a bit.(Much less than her previous two pregnancies.) The midwife/nurse (not sure which) started fiddling with a syringe. To be sure our choices would be taken notice of, I asked what it was for. "It's to help birth the placenta later - AND - a Vitamin K shot... if you're having it." Those last few words made me think, "Well, ok - they may not bother reading about our choices, but at least it sounds like this is going to be easy to say no."
So I replied we did not want the Vitamin K, and would wait and see if the placenta came naturally first, thanks.
A couple of hours into labour, DW's panic voice set in as she yelled for me to "Please *HELP* ME!!!". (Sometimes you gals are such GIRLS about this pain stuff!)So I asked the midwife if it was too late to have gas. She said that was ok. So I held DW's hand, rubbed her arm, reminded her to "make the marbles rattle" when breathing in - and stop breathing the gas as the worst of each contraction passed.
DW had been having fairly mild contractions (no screaming) until then. Then the real pain began, and only about four contractions after starting the gas, baby crowned. Midwife noticed, told DW, and stepped closer. As she was getting her hands ready and about to tell DW to push, the next contraction quickly slid baby out and he was placed on DW's stomach. So about a three hour labour with a few breaths of gas to take the edge off the pain.
DW had leaked a couple of times on the floor at home. Her previous two births, there was very little fluid. But when this little guy came out, heaps of fluid followed him. (Obviously fluid was what was being measured earlier in this thread - not baby. So much - again - for "accurate" ultrasound.)
Hard stuff over? Hm... Now MY labour began.
They took him to the plastic trolley/bed, cleaned him up a bit, and checked him over before informing us his lungs hadn't fully opened yet. You could see his chest working to draw a full breath and he was making a squeaking/wheezing noise when breathing. They said this is common for early births and often corrects itself fairly quickly. That if it didn't improve soon, he'd go to Intensive Care (which is where he did go just a few minutes later). There they laid him on his belly for a while - which they said sometimes helps - and monitored him electronically (as it's against SIDS recommendation to lie that way). This didn't do it for him, so they put him on his back and on a CPAP machine with saturated oxygen for a few hours until he had full lung capacity.
We had asked months earlier it be noted we did not want the cord cut until it stopped pulsing. (We had read up to 40% of baby's blood capacity can come from the placenta after birth.) It was also important to us, as we would not be accepting Vitamin K - injection or oral. Man alive you've got to have your wits about you! Someone grabbed a plastic clamp and scissors to cut the cord immediately after he arrived. I nearly had to put my hand out to stop her cutting the cord, as it was nearly done before I even got the words out.
Note: Later, when my wife was moved to a ward, another lady came in. The midwife was in such a hurry for her to birth her placenta, she had tugged on it, and torn her inside. She bled uncontrollably, requiring emergency treatment and she was in agony afterwards, moaning involuntarily.
Our birth had been more easy and stress-free than DW's previous two. Bub had some minor bruising to his forehead from the quick delivery, but his head was not really out of shape, which meant it wasn't stressful as such - just a little faster than "normal". (Whatever normal is, when you're shoving something the size of a small watermelon out an opening the size of a baseball.)
It was obvious to all coming and going in the birthing room, that it had been a normal, stress-free, uneventful birth - and several people said exactly that.
He was wheeled to ICU by two staff. (Those darn medical trolleys - they'll mow you down if you don't have four hands on them at all times.) They said I could follow so I would be familiar with the doors and hallways, so I could lead my wife there later. As we walked they explained the hand washing procedure to be followed each time before entering ICU.
As the morning progressed, other people would describe the hand washing method at least another three different ways. Later I was also told we could not go into ICU via the path I had originally been led. Instead we had to walk a huge U-shaped circle instead of just the straight line through two doors. (So following the first time helped me remember to find it HOW exactly!?)
During and after labour, we had been asked multiple times by various people about not having Vitamin K. Every time a new person popped their head in, or there was a staff changeover, there was a new discussion of our reasons.
Our son had been in ICU for two or three hours and I kept going back and forth between he and my wife. At one point there was a staff changeover. So for each person that glanced at his chart, I had to say all over again... "No, we are not accepting Vitamin K or Hep B." Most just said ok. A couple asked why before saying ok. Most were respectful of our decision.
One person though you could tell was rolling her eyes in her own mind, as she claimed many diseases we don't see anymore would suddenly return if everyone stopped vaccinating. (Anyone that's made the effort to look into this, would know this statement is just plain wrong.) But having been without sleep and weary of explaining, I gave just one example... When Japan stopped vaccinating under 2-year-olds (I think it was), their cot death rate plummeted. Some time later they began vaccinating under-2s again - and cot death rates again rocketed Japan back to their previous position. (Yet while this evidence stares them in the face, $$$ are fundraised each year to research the cause of cot death!?)
She only thinly hid her (tsk, tsk... what bad parents) attitude. She brought up her own "healthy vaccinated children", as if I was directly rubbishing her decision to vaccinate them. I really didn't want to get into it - none of her business really. She soon realised I was not ignorant on the subject, and she wasn't going to change our mind.
After another two or three hours of peace and quiet, then it really began...
Some doctor introduced himself. He was Indian, Pakistani, etc. (not sure) - and despite my wife & I knowing people of various nationalities - it was near to impossible for us understand him. He spoke far too softly, with long pauses, and then a barrage of words blurted out in one burst. His accent was so thick, and he was already moving onto another sentence before your brain had "locked onto" his previous comment.
He bluntly said he wanted me to cite our reasons for not accepting Hep B or Vit K - and he would then present "all the latest information" that would contradict the lot. Several staff gathered around (some obviously trainees the doctor had brought in tow) as I explained our newborn son was not sexually active, nor an intravenous drug user, and we do not want vaccines containing who knows what preservatives, such as mercury or formaldehyde pumped into his bloodstream. He quickly conceded, "I agree with you there is probably no need Hep B", but that mercury is not used in vaccines (which is simply not true).
He kept on demanding I give reasons/info why we didn't want Vitamin K - and again said he would quote studies that would contradict everything we provided - and our son had "bad bruising on his head that could lead to a brain bleed" - and "it may not even happen for a few weeks, so you should accept the oral Vitamin K."
I said, "It doesn't really matter what you quote, there will be just as much information to contradict that info right back again." I thought that was the end of it, but he kept right on pushing.
So I pointed out that every person that morning (and there had been several) had said the birth was uneventful, albeit a little faster than normal. They had even said this to each other as well (not just to calm any parental fears, etc.) as they handed off to each other. I said therefore, I know from my own research that means an extremely low risk of HD - and that the midwives - who deliver dozens of babies each week - said his bruising was mild, typical of a quick birth, but nothing to be concerned about. That he (the doctor) is the first one to refer to the bruising as being "bad".
He kept right on going...
Finally my lack of sleep and his goading caused my patience to evaporate. I got control of myself soon enough that I didn't punch him in the nose, and said, "Alright then - if you're so adament, find us a natural source of oral Vit K - at a child-suitable dosage - and we'll consider it. Until then OUR ANSWER IS NO."
He'd pressed all the wrong buttons by now, and wasn't taking no for an answer. So my voice had raised. He said I should lower my voice. I didn't think of it at the time but I should have said, perhaps if you LISTENED in the first place, I wouldn't NEED to raise my voice. He again asked the same thing - for reasons - saying it was just a harmless, natural vitamin, not the same as what's in the needle version.
Instead I said that we had already explained this several times today and would not be explaining it again. That I haven't been to sleep for a day and a half - I'm tired of defending our decisions to every person that strolls by and picks up his chart - and if you want our reasons - go and find one of those previous staff members it has been explained to today - and ask them our reasons.
He kept on demanding info.
So I said,
"OK THEN! :
* We've already had one child affected by so-called "safe" vaccines and will not be risking it again.
* Rates of vaccine damage are higher than deaths from the disease they supposedly prevent.
* The Vit K injection is not a natural vitamin - it's synthetic.
* The oral version is the same as what's in the needle.
* It is several thousand times an ADULT dose.
* That my wife's cord was not cut until it had stopped pulsing, which some suggest reduces the risk of HD.
* That data from 1950s (I think) studies that is used to bolster the widespread use of Vitamin K, was flawed and manipulated.
* Babies are just born Vitamin K deficiant. That's just the way it is.
* It hasn't yet been proven either way that Vitamin K deficiency does not have a legitimate reason, nor that it is anything other than completely normal for a newborn."
He replied that it's not a vaccination, it's a natural vitamin - so is not dangerous. I again said it is NOT natural, it is SYNTHETIC, thousands of times an adult dose, and his gut will colonise naturally with Vitamin K once he begins breastfeeding - and - my wife would breastfeed RIGHT NOW if they just allowed her to. (They were feeding him with nutritionally-void S-26 formula powder.)
Somewhere amongst all this I said we had been told by a few medical people throughout the pregnancy, that unlike some other places, the John Hunter respected people's right to decide. I said it seems the truth is, our decision is only respected when it agrees with yours.
This 20 minute long circus ended with the doctor saying to the other staff present, "The parents will inform us what they decide in relation to Vitamin K."
(I thought we already had.)
He never examined our son and saw him for less than two minutes (assuming he even looked at him, instead of just the chart). He spent seconds on his chart, we could barely even see this supposed bruising (which completely disappeared a few hours later). And we never saw him again over the few days (despite being with our son in ICU most of the time, trying get him to breastfeed so we could go home).
Any-way...
Our son's lungs opened fully in a couple hours. Problem solved I thought! (But they always manage to find another one.)
Initially they wouldn't let him begin breastfeeding, saying he was having a hard enough time breathing without also having his mouth full. "Hm... Sounds reasonable, ok..." I felt something was wrong with this - that we should breastfeed him - but I didn't know why I felt this way. A few days later someone mentioned babies are nasal breathers! So they had used his not-fully-opened-lungs as a reason not to breastfeed him - then used lack of breastfeeding as the reason to place a tube down his throat and feed him that S-26 rubbish. What would it matter if he had a mouth full of nipple, seeing he had a CPAP machine and tubing fitted into his nose, pumping in pressurised air saturated with oxygen, to make up for the lesser lung capacity!? (It's not like being against the breast could have closed his airway.) They also said S-26 was near to everything he needed nutritionally. We now know it is not even CLOSE to true.
To make matters worse, tube feeding S-26 formula resulted in him having no appetite, because he was more full than a breastfed baby would be. (All bulk but little nutritional value.) So of course he didn't even want to breastfeed when it finally was allowed. (While on that subject... While some there had said to us we couldn't breastfeed him - eventually someone asked WHY WE WEREN'T. After explaining why, they then they snorted a laugh and said, there's no problem with us breastfeeding - go right ahead!? ARGH!) So no breastfeeding CREATED a risk of HD, by not colonising his gut with Vitamin K naturally.
(Note: Are we the only ones who find it strange Vitamin K deficiency was so important earlier, that it required public criticism of our choices - but now was suddenly of so little importance? Is Vitamin K only treated as a matter of life and death when it comes via medical intervention in the form of a needle sold by a drug company!)
No breastfeeding prevented my wife's breastmilk from coming in. Despite being told the S-26 would prevent his blood sugar falling - by the next morning it had fallen. So they inserted a glucose drip. They did this without informing my wife, despite the fact she had been in ICU a few minutes earlier AND had made a point of telling them she would return in few minutes - and - was a 2 minute walk away in the maternity ward, with a phone at her bedside when not in ICU.
From then on, my wife and I spent as much time with him in ICU as possible. Trying to breastfeed, in order to fix the mess their guidelines/procedures made of his blood sugar. So we could get home and away from the unnecessary medical intervention. Then - surprise, surprise... Whereas the drip was put in that morning... Once the S-26 was removed and he was finally breastfed - his blood sugar immediately corrected. Just a few hours later, he was so well, that he was transferred to the maternity ward with my wife. A ward doctor came by, gave him and the chart a once-over and said, "Ok - good. So you'll be going home today?"
EXCUSE ME WHILE I SCREAM.
So his breathing (which corrected itself in a couple of hours) - and how it's typically treated in ICU - led to a negative spiral of medical meddling that made his health worse. When he went into ICU, he was the strongest in there. It was so FRUSTRATING watching him decline, knowing he just needed to BE BREASTFED.
Once allowed to breastfeed (and my wife's milk came in properly, which was also caused by all this foolishness), he quickly became so boringly normal, that we realised had we insisted, we probably could have gone home days earlier. As it was, after feeding we could have left right then had it not been a long weekend. (Staff who do some new hearing test were not at work.) DW had to take up a bed in maternity for another two days waiting for that test. We ended up leaving and having the test later.
I should say - MOST people in ICU were great. They have a genuine care with what they do - and an interest in the reasons behind your choices. Willing to listen - and even LEARN - realising maybe they don't know everything (like some pompous doctors do).
That's not to say I agree with the way and in what order medical things were done. (For instance... Pushing synthetic Vit K like it's the most important discovery to mankind - but at the same time deliberately withholding breastmilk from a baby, which provides natural Vitamin K.) Most of them are trapped, forced to follow a set of flawed guidelines. Many of them quietly nodded at the sense in our choices.
Sorry this was so long. But I know people will come and read, so maybe it will help someone else in some way. Some people are happy to do whatever someone in a white coat says. Others need to question, research, then decide what they want for their birth. Be prepared to make your choices understood (over and over again) - and ready to put your foot down in case you're treated like an uneducated bumpkin from some weird cult. If there's a next time for us, I won't worry about offending. They may talk about us in whispers afterwards - but at least our family will all be alive, together, and healthy.
By the way - new #3 son has been 100% healthy - since we LEFT hospital.
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Congratulations man, Well Done!
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