Cuddlepie - I'm very excited for you...Also, I think 2 does increase your chances - my FS originally suggested transferring 2 to me...and we did the first time when we had 2 to transfer...for my next cycle if we don't do PGD I probably won't do 2 but if we do get to do PGD and end up with 2 good ones I most definitely would ask for both of them to be put in.
CP - yaay at getting some goodies to put back. May at least one be THE one to go all the way.
You are also our last hope for xmas BFP as I am most defnitely out. The fat lady started singing today. Not unexpected at all after yesterday but I am still totally crushed by the whole thing.
The "getting" pg part hadn't been our biggest hurdle in the past so now I am faced with the trouble to actually get a pregnancy, let alone try and keep it.
Managed to beg and plead and appt with FS for Mon so feel a touch better that at least can discuss things soon and prob start another cycle in the new yr.
Also had a good chat with my nurse and the PGD scientist. Both seem to think our results "genetically" were actually very good ( for age group) so an option for us may be just to go to plain IVF with day5 transfer to help weed out any abnormals. Still about 20% chance of putting abnormal one back in but better than IUI odds ( maybe around 40%). I am still concerned why we lost so many embies , well all really - none frozen and none stuck. I CAN get pg so unlikely to be and implantation issue. Seems this time, we just had no good embies. Did the PGD do some damage? Do our embies not like the whole IVF/lab conditions? Did we just have a dud cycle? Questions I don't think anyone can answer but I am going to get a call from embryologist to hopefully give me some insight as to whether our loss of embies could be considered within the relms of "normal" or if anything else can be done.
Sigh.... looks like I'll be joining the January brigade. 2009 HAS to be a better year. 2008 has been the pit of all pits!
Meredith sorry about the HPT result. Don't mean to sound dumb, but is the fat lady AF? If so double The last two stim cycles I have felt so BLAH the day AF arrived. Humongous headache which I think is the hormones crashing. I hope you are not having that. I am glad you have squeezed in with your FS on Monday. It will be good to enter the New Year with an idea of what the next step is, what direction you will take. Like you I have been wondering about PGD damage, etc. I am also wishing I was with a clinic which did Day 3 PGD (even though I have read and respected the whole reason SIVF do it on Day 5). I just think the body is the place for these little beans. I can't ever imagine having two blasts to transfer on Day 5. This whole IVF cycle has shown you are very fertile, so chin up, hon. I truly believe you will get there!
Cuddlepie - I am THRILLED THRILLED THRILLED for you! Congratulations Ms PUPO I will join in the chant for your Christmas BFP
Sara - sorry about your stressy week. Are you getting a decent break over Christmas?
Buliej and Lisa
BW - hope you are putting your feet up and getting some sleep (while you still can)
AFM - Cramped like crazy yesterday afternoon, though spotting was minor. Bit worried about having a low estrogen level on Day 10 (yesterday) and how it will have affected my follicle growth. Clinic had told me AF can be late the cycle after IVF so maybe that has messed things up further. Then I read on the Net that pineapple causes cramping and not to use it after transfer (Cuddlepie take note). Maybe this is where I went wrong post-transfer because I ate about 1/4 of one afterwards and REALLY cramped the next day. So I am now off pineapple juice (which I have pretty much swum in for the past six months). My goodness I to and fro with this whole TTC business! Meanwhile a girl at playgroup today announced she was pregnant with No.3 and I hear about another IVF couple who are now pregnant with quads
Last edited by Where there's hope; December 12th, 2008 at 11:52 AM.
Meredith- My deepest sympathies, I have only had one failed IVF but even that was devistating, I did not think for one second that I wouldn't be pregnant with a little girl now.
I did read an interesting website the other day from the CSIRO saying that they believe that IVF and even further PGD damages eggs and creates more problems then it fixes. Will try to find it again and let you all know.
Hi ladies, thanks for all the well wishes and have been feeling quite tired and lying down a lot with back pain...
Meredith, I am so devastated this cycle didn't work out, I know how much you put into this. Its more frustrating when you didn't have a problem of 'getting pregnant'. Seems the whole process makes you wonder whether it is solving the problems or adding more complications. I think all your doubts are valid. It actually makes me wonder as well. Glad that you manage to have an early appt with FS to discuss next step. The option of simply doing IVF sounds quite good to me, especially they've done one round of PGD and can gather some ideas how genetically sound of your embies. That would give me a lot of confidence of doing IVF for the next round. So at least that is one very important insight coming out of this PGD cycle and I hope this will be a foundation for you to find some answers.
Lisa K, that article sounds interesting, would love to have a read when you find. I hope you are doing alright in this silly season.
]WTH, thanks for the advice about pineapple, I had some today so I will try to control the intake. A couple pregnant with quads? As much as I love a big brood, I don't how can I cope with that - just the pregnancy part. I am actually quite scared of being pregnant with twins (here is some positive thinking )
Sara, how are you going? I hope work will soon be quiet down, I know everyone is trying to dump stuff before Xmas, its a bit mad out there hey? Hope you are in good spirit.
Buliej, I sincerely hope you are right about two will have more chance...hope you are doing well
WLAB, you funny drunken girl, well, I think I will just have to listen to your order and take 'cosmopolitan' off my drink list...damn..
BW, well done for making it to maternity leave, YAY!
Last edited by Cuddlepie; December 12th, 2008 at 06:23 PM.
WTH - Oh sorry, just hate naming the darn wwitch but yes, AF ( or the very early start of AF) has shown her face today. Feel a bit like crazy woman today - up and down like a yo-yo which i am sure is the hormonal dive. Like you, I am so confused about all the pros and cons of all this stuff. Every cycle seems to bring new complications and raises more questions. Wish I lived in ignorant bliss and let the Drs just decide but it aint that easy!
CP - give your belly a rub and tell those bubbas hey need to snuggle on in.
Lisa - That article does sound interesting. Would love to read it but probably just going to scare me more
Did talk to head embryologist today and perhaps feel a touch better. She didn't seem to think our "drop off" was unusual. Said it can be very individual to each couple and each cycle. A point she made that I guess I hadn't really grasped, is that from any one stim cycle, you can only expect 1 or 2 embies ( no matter how many you start with) that could potentially become live babies. So even getting some frozen doesn't mea that many or any would ever produce a child. In 12yrs, she said the most "cihildren" produced from one batch of embies (fresh and frozen) was four and that was only one couple in 12yrs ( and probably a lot younger than all of us!). So truly, it IS a numbers game and guess we just have to keep going through this until the right one comes up. Also found out that quite a few of our embies did grow on to blast by day5 or 6 but some were missing inner cell mass (part that becomes embryo) - so not viable and oters just starting to degnerate so not suitable for freezing. One of our PGD abnormal ones also made it to blast so does reflect the risk in a non- tested cycle.
Will need to speak to FS on Monday but going by my conversations with all the staff today, we are probably going to go with just straight IVF next cycle but brave the wait to a day 5 transfer. Our PGD cycle did at least show that we produce more "norma""l than abnormal embies, at least for the chromosomes tested .If we are still getting some duds for other genetic/developmental factors, then PGD isn't going to help pick them out.
Off camping this weekend and determined that my main concern will be that the stupid rain stops
Not sure if I should throw that in the mix but when I was talking to the scientist asking if I could also do a screen for chromosomes missing she said that it quite often happens that there are false positives so that you're losing embryos that are perfectly fine - not sure if you want to do down that path Meredith but it may be worthwhile to check if there is any chance your blasto when had tested positive could be a false positive?
I will have to do down the PGD path since the whole point of IVF is to exclude embryos which have my bad gene, so the whole discussion scares me a lot and I need to try to think about the "Stopsigns" so that I not despair about it.
Just got a copy of the letter that my FS wrote to my GP yesterday and it droves things a bot home. Maybe I should change FS, she just is so negative. It says that I had a very poor response to FSH and that she hopes the next cycle will bring and adequate response and "hopefully" EPU and PGD testing. While this is my hope as well, my ultimate goal is not to just do testing but to actually get pregnant.
Meredith: I am really sorry that the witch showed. Hope your appointment on Monday helps you to see a way forward, the information from the embryologist sounds helpful.
Cuddlepie: There's the spirit, get off the cosmo yes work is certainly mad out there, make sure you don't let them stress you as well.
WTH: Yes I am talking two full weeks off over Christmas and can't tell you how much forward I look to that. Pregnant with quads urrghh that sounds a bit much, hope they have their family close by. Understand about the girl in the playgroup announcing she is pregnant with No 3, it's just really heartbreaking when other people seem to have it so easy. Do you have date when you'll be starting in Jan or is it also dependent on when AF arrives?
Buliej, Lisa & BW: Hope you're doing well and have a great weekend.
Sara - My lab states about 10% chance of false -ve or +ve so can work either way. Yes, we could have "discarded" a good embie and we could also have put back in an abnormal one. I can't think that far into it though, as we will never know and the test is only as good as it is. If you do a blast transfer in just plain IVF cycle, there is 20-25% chance of the blast actually being abnormal with potential to create pg so I guess paired with PGD the risk is certainly significantly reduced.
HOwever, given our stats from this cycle and that most of our abnormal embies wouldn't have even been able to get to implantation stage, we will most likely take our chances without the PGD next time. Save some money to be able to do more cycles if necessary and maybe save some embies from unnecessary damage. I am trying to look at the positive spin to this crushing failed cycle and I guess that was learning that we should still have plenty of good embies left in us..... just have to get the right one to stick!
I can understand you being upset by reading that letter. Makes it sound so harsh. I think if you have any doubts about your FS, you should at least have an appt with another to hear their take on things.
Realistically, you've only had ONE try at IVF and certainly not worthy of a "right off" without knowing how you will respond to different drug protocol
CP - hope you are travelling along ok. You ARE 3 weeks pg!
WTH - have fun this w/e!
Buliej, LisaK - hope you girls are ok
Last edited by MeredithD; December 13th, 2008 at 08:21 PM.
Sara, the rain sure stopped for your camping, its too hot today! Anyway, i hope you are having fun.
About the FS, it sounds a bit harsh the way she described it, like Meredith said, it is only your very first cycle. But sometimes I think they like to throw us into 'older age women group' and overlook the individual case. See how next cycle goes, if you still have doubt, maybe start to shop around for 2nd opinion. You knew the process I've been through earlier regarding changing FS, he did brought a lot of new things on the table which has never been discussed with my old FS, even the way he does procedures is very different from the previous one. So I guess my learnings from this is 'Every FS has his/her own approach and style, you never know which one suits you better until you try it. Good luck hun!
Meredith, I like the way you said that I am 3 weeks pregnant! Give me so much hope! Thanks! I have been feeling quite concerned as I still have a bit of cramp and feeling tight in the lower abdominal area. I've never had this in the past transfers. So just called nurse and she said its quite normal and could be part of the side effect 'pregnyl boost injection' I had. Its not severe or anything but its there just to make me worries. I fear that my body is not in top shape then the embryos won't be able to implant. Anyway, I hope it will get better soon.
Also I agree with your theory, seems doing IVF with 5 day transfers at least have some quality controls on filtering stronger / healthier embryos and it does resolve your DH's worry to some extent. I hope you find the middle road to keep going hun!
Cuddlepie - I think the cramping is mean't to be a good sign. Realistically, it could very well be implantation cramping. Maybe with two beans in there you might notice it more?? Can't help but get my hopes up for you
Meredith - I was interested that you are considering not doing PGD next time. The SIVF brochure says 2/3 are normal by Day 5. Starting to wonder about this myself. But then I see all the sigs on IVF threads with MC at 8 weeks, etc. It might be wrong of me but I automatically assume it must be chromosonal (as it is 50% of the time). So if they did PGD it might not have happened. But then, if they did PGD a good one might get damaged or discared. It is all such a toss up.
Sara - I agree with Cuddlepie and Meredith about perhaps getting a second opinion. I suppose you would need a new referal from your GP to see a different FS and it might be difficulat to arrange both appointments at this time of year. Certainly, I would do so if the next cycle does not pan out for you. My IVF cycle will start as soon as AF comes. it does not come on Dec 31 as I cannot do AM blood test on Jan 1 (pub hol) and so would be commencing Orgulatron cycle on Day 3. Think that might lower the follie no. In any case, starting in around two weeks and once again, no down reg
Lisa - very interested in that article. Seems the negatives about IVF's don't make the news (the IVF factories have much better PR units). I wonder if it damages eggs in future cycles (eg, the cycle after IVF). I am counting on my follies being better this cycle from the two months of stims which is why we are trying naturally...
AFM - had a great weekend doing lots of fun stuff. Can't believe it's over. Oh, and we BD, too
Hi WTH, I like your theory of trying it naturally after two stim cycles. They did say that the drugs sometimes could be in your system for a while. And there are a few cases of trying IVF with no avails and got pregnant naturally when on a break, so I am hope the miracle will once again proved in your case. I think we will be doing the same if this cycle doen't work out, will be trying naturally in Jan before doing a FET in Feb.
Sara,
One of the things that several people said to me while I was doing PGD was that not very much was known about the best methods for egg collection from non-infertile women. And that they were still building up that body of knowledge.
I don't think I would be seeking a second opinion yet as long as your FS has some ideas that make sense to you about what they would try differently next time.
Your FS is just thinking in steps - once they are able to get some embryos for testing then there is a pretty good chance that you will be able to become pregnant without further challenges. If not then they will deal with that when they get there. It can sometimes feel like you are a little thing on a production line in a factory though...
hope camping went well!
Kate
Last edited by Kmn; December 15th, 2008 at 09:13 AM.
Hope everyone had a great start to the week. My camping went very well, we did walks along forsest, cliffs and beaches for two days, swam on the beach, camped under the stars and full moon and as a result I now feel much better.
Cuddlepie, Meredith, WTH and Knm: Thank you so much for your advice to my early morning rant. I've decided to just go with my FS for the next cycle, if that doesn't go well may try Dr Lok.
Meredith: Thinking of you today, hope your appointment goes well. I understand that you may want to go without PGD, just wonderign what is the price difference? I've never asked since it wasn't an option and it's not a separate item on my bill.
Cuddlepie: Keeping fingers crossed the cute little piglets are safe and warm in their new home.
KMn: Thanks for your advice, made me feel much better.
WTH: Yes, I am also really scared AF comes on Dec 26 and or Jan 1.When I talked to the nurse she said if it comes on Dec 25 or Dec 31 to call them as you can come in any time of the day not only in the morning. But you know, I go with CP on that one, hoping that your weekend activity pays out so that AF won't show her face for the next 10 months.
From my hormonal up and downs over the last week actually wondering if AF will show her face this week with some spotting, in that case I'd have to wait for the next one after that, would be much happier about that outlook.
Sara - glad you had a nice w/e. Hope AF shows soon so your next cycle gets you right on track for IVF next yr. BTW, the PGD component of our cycle was $2100.
CP - hope you are feeling ok. On the home stretch now darl!
WTH - hope your "efforts" over the weekend bring some good news!
I wouldn't stress if you need to start FSH on day3. My clinic routinely starts all antagonist cycles on day3.
We have defnitely decided not to do PGD next cycle although part of me would still like to for the "saftey". Mostly I guess, our decision is made because we did actually learn something from the last cycle. We had a bit over 60% normal embies which is on par with most women in my age bracket and not to bad odds really. Also, of the abnormals, only 1 of the 5 could have actually implanted and become a pregnancy (then to be miscarried). We had no abnormalities that could have progressed and maybe resulted in a need for termination ( which is apparently "abnormally good"!). We do not actually know why our "normal" embies failed. Maybe we have other issues not able to be picked up by PGD ( hence, it is not THE answer to getting a healthy pg), but also,no one can rule out the actual PGD process itself. If we just do "plain" IVF and go to day5 then we should be able to reduce our odds of putting back an abnormal to no more than 20% which, at this point, I accept as an acceptable risk if it means I may stand a better chance of actually getting pg ( and we can save some $$ to allow for more cycles). I think I was a bit naive but I really thought this whole process would work for us. Even if we didn't get pg first time, I expected 1-2 frozen embies ( given our large starting nos) to at least try again. I am still not sure whether we are making the right decisions but it seems to be a reasonable option given the info we have.
My FS appt went ok this morning. Don't know that she had any more to offer than the embryologist or PGD scientist. She did, however, feel a bit more strongly than them that the PGD biopsy may have led to some of our losses. She also thinks, that maybe my borderline overstimulation may have led to poorer egg quality. It was defnitely one of my concerns so a note to all you ladies wanting to see large egg numbers.... it does sound great but no help at all if they are not top notch quality.
Next cycle my FSH will be dropped to 150 and we will aim for about 8-10 more mature eggies ( rather than 20 with a lot being immature.). If this doesn't work, we may go back to OI/IUI for a bit as at least we were getting pg this way. We would just be taking our chances of getting a "good" one
Another interesting fact my FS told me when discussing getting frosties etc ( hopefully will do next time!). Apparently, they ( at MOnash) and researchers in Japan, are finding they are getting better pg rates with frozen blast transfers. No one has figured out quite why but poss some women aren't as "receptive" to pg after a stim cycle. In Japan, they are starting to freeze ALL blasts and only doing frozen transfers. Sounds interesting but would still scare me to much to not do a fresh transfer.
So, I will be joining you all in Jan for another lap of this rollercoaster. GIven I don't cycle naturally, I will just take provera to bring on bleed and start another antagonist cycle around 15th Jan...... counting the days already!
Last edited by MeredithD; December 15th, 2008 at 07:44 PM.
Interesting information there, Meredith. At one point when we'd lost three from three pregnancies, we started asking our FS about PGD, and despite how things were looking he advised against it - particularly because it can't check for all chromosomal problems, and he suspected that continuing to grow our embryos to blast stage and then freezing them and doing frozen transfers was our best bet. At that point in time it had been our only option with the continual hyperstimulation we were dealing with.
Strangely enough, though, I think the answer for us was in reducing the hyperstimulation and egg numbers and getting slightly better quality. After having collections of 26 and 32 eggs, ending up with 4 and 7 blastocysts and only having two from each cycle thaw and be able to be transferred... It does say a lot about the filtering process we were going through... but on the next cycle we got the numbers down to 20, still had quite a few immature eggs (my levels were getting a bit borderline on getting a fresh transfer in, so they took me to EPU a day or two early - I simply wasn't going to cope with another hospitalisation from OHSS!) We only got three fertilise so we couldn't grow to blast, but one is kicking me now, and the other two are waiting in the freezer... Which goes to show that sometimes the answer you believe you are striving for isn't necessarily the only answer out there. I certainly believe there's something to be said for aiming for the best quality eggs possible and minimising the handling of them to reduce the potential for lab procedures to damage them.
I still have a vague feeling that my miscarriages were caused by not being on the right doses of the right meds at the time rather than anything else.
I hope it's food for thought, Meredith, and perhaps helps you feel a little more comfortable with your decision.
Cuddlepie, still keeping an eye on you and hoping.
Just want to come in to say a quick 'hi' work is a shocker before Xmas ...
What a few interesting points Meredith, one is being egg quality and another one is no fresh transfer only FET in Japan. I have been having the similar thoughts purely because I know my body is sensitive and doesn't like to be poked around, so fresh cycle never worked for me (never means 'past two cycles'), hence I am now a bit regreted that I've put two in, feels like wasting them. Both FS and scientists said to me that fresh transfers have higher success rate than FET, but again I guess sometimes nobody knows better than your own body. Definitely food for thought for future cycles.
BW, thanks for keeping an eye on me, I need those prayers!
Cramps is gone, feeling pretty chilled out purely because my mind doesn't have much hope in this cycle, reason refers to 1st paragraph...at least I have one frostie to look forward to in Feb should this cycle fails....
Hi to all!
Last edited by Cuddlepie; December 16th, 2008 at 11:04 AM.
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sorry about the HPT result. Don't mean to sound dumb, but is the fat lady AF? If so double
Congratulations Ms PUPO
As much as I love a big brood, I don't how can I cope with that - just the pregnancy part. I am actually quite scared of being pregnant with twins (here is some positive thinking
)
you funny drunken girl, well, I think I will just have to listen to your order and take 'cosmopolitan' off my drink list...damn..
yes work is certainly mad out there, make sure you don't let them stress you as well.
it does not come on Dec 31 as I cannot do AM blood test on Jan 1 (pub hol) and so would be commencing Orgulatron cycle on Day 3. Think that might lower the follie no. In any case, starting in around two weeks and once again, no down reg
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