Acupunture increases IVF success rates (two studies)

[Nix76]

Hi Seph,

May I ask where about's your acupuncture therapist is? I notice you are in Melbourne too!

[Justin Keane]

Hi All,

As there seems to be ambiguity surrounding the mechanisms of action of CM to assist IVF to the extent that you may not feel like complying with the treatment, let me try to 'disarm' it for you guys.

The treatmernt principles employed during ovarian stimulation primarily concern relaxation (systematically) and increased circulation (locally).

Additions to this can made on a case by case basis and of course there are variations depending on at which stage of the cycle you may be.

Some practitioners follow the acupuncture protocols of the aforementioned studies as these points were shown to achieve a certain level of effectivness, hence no detailed history etc.
However there is evidence of less high quality (studies not as well designed as the two acupuncture studies) that suggests CM (incl. CHM) is potentially even more efficous than reported in those well publicised papers, and for this reason many well informed acupuncturists and herbalists incorporate more into their treatments than the (now standard) acupuncture points.

I hope this clears some things up and I'm sure it creates some more qns but please ask away.

Justin Keane
Registered Acupuncturist CMRBV
Masters of Chinese Herbal Medicine student RMIT
Former Acupuncturist at BBPC (and member of prof. support panel)

[Persephone1]

Hi Seph,

May I ask where about's your acupuncture therapist is? I notice you are in Melbourne too!

Hey Nix,

Mine is in Brunswick. He's at the Brunswick Osteopathic & Acupuncture Clinic on Lygon Street. He's lovely, I'd recommend him to anyone.

Seph

[Nix76]

Hey Seph - thanks. Brunswick is a bit far for me - with working all week and all.

Thanks anyhow.

BTW - I like your signature : Hey! I put in an order for a BFP! Can I have an ETA please?

[Ping]

Hi Nix76

Thank you for your previous post of your first account experience in acupuncture. It certainly helps for people like me who have not had any experience at all. Glad to hear that the needles are painless.

All the best of luck for your ET today.

ping

[Nix76]

Hey there,

Well yesterday after an US to see if I am near ovulating while we wait until we can have a natural FET this month, I decided that I was going to get back on the TCM and acupuncture wagon.

However I was not really totally impressed with where I went before EPU mainly cos the Dr did not really ask enough questions about what my cycle was, where I was up to, why we were even doing IVF.... so I wanted to try find another who seemed a bit more connected to what my issue may be and therefore respond/treat accordingly.

I surfed the medibank web once again to find someone convenient and called her and over the phone she sounded pretty wise to the whole fertility side of things.

Had an appnt last night and personally I am more interested in the acupuncture side of things, but happy to take CM if they think it will help - and I do beleive it must do something - they have been using it for years right!

So - after an hour appnt and no acupuncture she had taken a look at my tongue, took my temp & my pulse or something like that as she had her fingers on my wrist for ages - she told me that my system was not in good enough shape to get pregnant right now. She also asked lots of questions which was good and understood what our issue was (which is nothing to do with me as it is a sperm issue connecting to egg which casues us to need ICSI).

She (not too persuasivly but just stating her opinion) said that we should hold off on the FET this month as it would be a waste of money and emby and wait until she could get my system ready.

Now yesterday I was feeling really tired and a bit down about it all as my US had shown no change since Friday last week, and it was not clear when O would be, and I had just a little bit to drink on weekend (but loads the last 2 weekends after we had the failed first ET) but I explained to her other than that I had not had a drink since May this year.
I don't know if any of this had anything to do with it - I mean can she see past that and really tell that I am not ready?

My question to you all who have had TCM/IVF experience - what would you do? Would you take what she is saying as something to think about? Would you put off a FET cycle and wait a month?

I am very impatient and I don't want to have to wait any longer than I have to but then I also want to give my body the best possible chance at this - so maybe I should have the month off. As far as MIVF goes - I am sure I can cancel this cycle - after all I am not on any drugs and I've only had a couple of US's and Ov pee tests.

We have 2 bubsicles in the freezer and I am also concious that if the first FET does not go OK we would probably want to get another stim cycle in before the end of the year. (for medicare safety net reasons and changes to the rebate in case it does have a higher cost impact on us) so I need to work out the effect of waiting another month for first FET.

Sorry for the long post - just wanted to state all the facts and I am keen to hear what anyone else thinks - interested mainly in those that know a bit about the TCM and have had experiences or heard stories.

[Nix76]

Oh and i forgot to mention I got sent away with a HEAP of herbs (looks just like twigs and tree bark to me) that I have to boil for 30 mins and then drink the broth (like tea) and do this twice a day (and it tastes horrid).

This apparently will start to help my system and will not interfear with my FET if we still go ahead.

She did say tho that if we decide to cancel FET and focus on fixing my system this month then she would give me other stuff that will help clean out and then prepare me for next month.

I felt like I was in witches den getting given 'eye of newt' etc etc.. LOL! Should have tried casting a spell on my concoction on the stove last night! It certaibly stunk the house out!! But at least DP had 2 sips to try and share my pain!

Oh - the things we do for a baby!!

[mitf]

Hi Nix,

I have had some interesting experiences with acupuncturists as well. I wasn't happy with the first one who had to look up a book to decide on my preparing for EPU treatment. Then I found one who specialises in fertility who was a little bit better before progressing to my third acupuncturist whose appointment sounds much like yours. It went for about an hour and a half and we spent most of it talking about my medical history and infertility issues plus she did the whole tongue, temp & long pulse taking as well. We did manage to fit in acupuncture in the last half hour. I have been back a few times for acupuncture though and things are going well so far. The issue that I have is she is keen for me to progress with Chinese herbs and I am not sure how I feel about them. Trying to do a little research on that at the mo.

Anyway enough about me..... I think cancelling your cycle on a TCM practitioners advice is a tough call, particularly one who you have just met. I have noticed from some of the other ladies posts that they take on board a lot of advice from their TCM practitioner (Juniper for one is on a 4 month break and she almost got a natural BFP so obviously something is working - maybe you could PM her for more info).

I have just had a month of after my Stim at my FS instruction. It has been a little painful but hopefully it has done my system some good. Did you have a month off at all in between your stim and first FET?

I am also a little impatient and would hate to be told that I needed to take another month off. How are you feeling? Are you feeling healthy & positive? If so I would probably continue as planned with the FET. Although if you are feeling run down, tired or just generally out of sorts maybe a break would do your system good.

I wouldn't worry too much about the occasional drinks either. I too have been enjoying a few drink in-between my cycles but otherwise have tried to exercise regularly and eat well.

Good luck with your decision.

mitf xo

[Nix76]

Hey Mitf, thanks for taking the time to reply.

Since my last post on this - I went back for 2nd appointment yesterday lunch for acupuncture. She checked the tongue again, temp and wrist thing and she was happy as she thought I had 'pepped up' looking better and not as weak. We did the acupuncture - interestingly needles went in pretty much same spots as the last guy - but this time she hooked them up to low level electricity current. She also had this heater thing hovering over my belly I assume to keep me warm or maybe to do something else and she kept using a stethoscope to listen to my lower abdomen / belly area. She was in and out of the room checking on me all the time, more listening, then turning the elec up whereas the last guy put the needles in left me for 30 mins, came back took them out and that was it. During this time too she was talking to me about other patients showing me their sperm results (names covered) and explaining their story and still discussing our fertility aspects and how it related to us.

All up - it was a different exp and a bit weird as it is all new - but I got such a better feeling with her and I really feel comfortable to listen to what she says and take her advise. I get the feeling she really knows what she is doing.

However, we are still going to proceed with FET this month - provided I can predict the surge. I didn't have a break as did down reg stim cycle, emby never implanted in the 2WW and then this is the month after. FS didn't say I had to have break or anything. It was up to me if I wanted to go straight back into a FET.

I discussed with Julie (TCM Dr) yesterday that we would still like to proceed and she said she was feeling more comfortable about me doing that as I had responded well overnight to the herbs and to the acupuncture and she said that she was happy to work with me and try and get me ready for "putting baby back in". I love how they talk!

In regards to the herbs - mitf - I tell ya it was so weird when she was dishing it all up for me. If your TCM Dr is like mine and when s/he speaks of getting you on to herbs - are they meaning tablets or the raw material? I thought Julie meant tabs as that is all I got from the last guy (but did not take them) She says the raw thing is better as it is stronger and she can make it up specifically for me whereas tabs are already made up and not as specific to my needs.
We went into her front room where there were loads of drawers all with stickers on front and Chinese character writing on(I thought they would be filled with paperwork). She pulls out 5 paper throw away plates, puts them on the table, then reading from my card and the notes she had made she starts to pull stuff out of different drawers. I am talking stuff that looks like twigs and dried plant root and dried sliced grape vine stems. She would tell me what it was if she could relate it to something in english. As I said in earlier post I felt like I was in a witches den!!! She put it in 5 individual bags and I have to put in pot with water, boil for 30 mins then drink 1 cup - twice a day. Use each packet twice then throw away and start with new packet.
It tastes pretty ordinary but I think I may be getting a bit more used to it now I have had 4 lots. But like my DP says - they keep finding new medicines in the amazon and there lots of things out there that people use in non western society so I'm sure there is some logic and benefit to it.
Supposedly I am meant to pass a lot of wind today and go to the toilet a lot. Cos when I told her I only go every 2 days about - she thought we should get me going every day! Its all to help the system!!

I think do your research if it makes you feel more comfy, speak to your FS and maybe give the herbs a go. Sounds like your TCM Dr knows what you are going through so will compliment you. And if it doesn’t help in the fertility side – at the very least it has to help your health itself.

Its certainly an interesting ride this whole journey!!

[lise]

Nix, i thought i'd respond though I don't really have much experience with acupuncture. I go to a clinic just down the road from MIVF, and i've only been around 4 times. The first time they did everything you mentioned - taking my medical history, talking about IVF, where we're up to and what we've done, looked at my tongue and took my pulse. I then had the acupuncture itself, and it was like you also mentioned - she stuck the needles in and left me alone. The other sessions have pretty much been the same, checking where i'm up to, checking tongue and pulse and then the acupuncture itself. Nobody has mentioned herbs or anything like that yet, and to be honest if they did i'm not sure what my response would be. I'd probably take it if it wasn't going to do any harm, but i'm not sure i'd take the advice of a TCM practitioner over my FS if it came to cancelling a cyle or anything like that. But that's just me. I did a science degree at uni, so whilst i'll try most things, deep down I know I personally trust my FS more then my TCM practitioner.

I think you're right - you've got to do whatever you feel comfortable with, which will be different for everyone.

Hope this helps somewhat and sorry if I seem a bit negative, i'm just trying to give an honest response.

lise xx

[Nix76]

Hey Lise,

Thanks for responding.

I agree with you - if there was a decision to be made i would take FS advice over TCM. But I think in the end I have found it to be complementary so far.

I guess the one thing that still mystifies me a little is that after our first cycle did not work, I only spoke with the nurse over the ph and she pretty much left it up to me as to if we wanted to wait a month or go back into FET straight away there was no advice which was better - other than Ov may be delayed after a stim cycle. There was no discussion about what my body my be ready for, no checking of my body as such. Only now when we are doing scans to try catch Ov are we checking my body.

So maybe given that TCM Dr looked at ME a little more in depth it gave me some confidence that maybe I should listen to her a bit. Mind you - is looking at my tongue, taking temp and pulse really all that much more?!

I think we all need to find what works for us and makes us comfortable. I am sure that if I get a BFP this time round that it won't be just related to the herbs and acupuncture!! But I will never know if it really did help either!!

[dory]

I know its quiet in here at the moment. I have started accupuncture for a variety of reasons and thought I would share.

I was suffering from quite severe anaemia and went to try and find a way through the debilitating fatigue and mind fog. The first consult was long and included full medical history, pulse check and treatment including accup****ure and use of heat lamp. There was a tonic (liquid) that I was prescribed in addition to recommendations for dietary changes I could make. Gradually the fatigue receded. I can't say whether it was the accupuncture or not.

I have also attended for assistance following recurrent miscarriage. No BFP yet, but its only my first cycle. What I have noticed however is changes in my menstrual flow and it has been pretty much as the accupuncturist has predicted each time.

The other odd thing is accupuncture was great when I got water stuck in my ear and couldn't get it out for over 12 hours and it was gone in 10 seconds after accupuncture.

The last reason I went to accupuncture was for digestive issues. I haven't noticed any significant changes, but I wouldn't expect to see them already.

I had previously had accup****ure for sports injuries. Cant say if there was an improvement in function at the time because of the swelling but it seemed to heal quickly and I was back on the pitch quick smart.

I have a GF who goes to Shen Therapies and just raves about it as does her SIL. I have never been there, but I have an objection to some of the comments on their web page about miscarriage, so can't go out of principle. Besides my GF has to have something all to herself.

[JustOneMore]

Hi Ladies,

I am thinking of trying acupunture and was wondering could someone recommend a clinic here in Liverpool/Campbelltown/Camden Area.

Thanks heaps for your help.

[Sarah1]

Hey Girls,

Wish I had found this thread earlier. I took a 4 month break from IVF treatment & went to see Maria Berry for chinese herbs. i would highly suggest her - she is located in Ascot Brisbane. She has a lovely manner and spent alot of time talking to me and putting in place a treatment plan. She worked for over 20 years in china in the fertility clinics. Each month I filled out a temperature chart & could see the changes each time. I had acupuncture with Stacy Robson at the same clinic once a month around ovulation. I now have a lovely little boy. I would def suggest giving Chinese medicine ago.