excellent post bg
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excellent post bg
Briggies Girl - I know that the poll was refering too. But I was responding to the original post with regards to Angelina and Brad.
Your completely right, it is wrong that the media are using such a personal issue to sell more magazines. And I stand by my opionon with regards to how that may make Angelina and Brad feel. And (as I said in my post) I dont beleive that anyone has the right to question anyones reasons for using IVF or assisted conception It is for most people a very private personal decision and I imagine a very emotional time. It is an option that myself, partner and doctor have discussed for myself and I wouldnt like being questioned on my reasons for pursuing it if we decided to go through with it. So in that in mind I wouldnt questions others.
I personally dont find it insulting because everyone has reasons for pursuing it, BUT having said that i dont beleive that I am in a position have a strong opinion on the matter because I am not personally using assisted conception at this stage.
excellent Post Bg;)
I don't find it insulting, but I am concerned about the apportioning of medical resources to those who are in greatest need.
I'd hate to think that couples who are going through a long and possibly distressing journey to conceive via IVF might miss out on specialist care and attention when they need it because others are using it as a matter of convenience or choice, kwim?
I'm also concerned because when there is greater need, a demand-driven market tends to drive up prices, so again, a negative side affect could be an increase in the costs associated with IVF treatment for those couples for whom this is their only option.
Hi there Briggy's girl,
Yes i couldn't agree more with the quote that you posted.I too have been what you have gone through & my heart & hopes are with you. Couldn't believe the ignorance & heartlessness of one post that said "who Bloody Cares". Clearly this person has no idea or respect for other people. If she had of read the question again she would realise that it's not suggesting that non-IVF babies are any less of a human being. The topic relates to peoples feelings on the appropriatness of IVF to gain twins in healthy couples. I actually pity this woman for her shallowness.
Dear Smithy,
Good luck on your journey. I do understand what you're going through. I had 12 years of it. My thoughts & prayers are with you both. Good luck for your appointment.
You brought up 2 really interesting points Marydean.
I hope that there no-one is missing out, or being priced out.
I don't want to comment on Brangelina per se, as I don't know that they were conceived via IVF, although I do find the idea of choosing IVF for the sole purpose of conceiving twins rather insulting. I think the '2 for the price of 1 mentality' should refer to shoes, not human beings!! I think babies are being increasingly viewed as commodities, rather than gifts. People are so particular these days about when they want kids, how many, what month, what star sign, what gender, etc etc.
In my opinion, part of the miracle of childbirth is that it is mysterious and left to chance.
Who says that having 1 boy and 1 girl will make you happier than having 3 boys, or 4 girls?? (Just an example- nothing against anyone who does have 1 boy and 1 girl!!).
IMO all babies are gifts- you get what your given and be darn grateful for each one of them.
Hubby and I are fortunate not to have suffered with fertility problems (we are both under 30), but if we did, we would undergo extensive mutual detoxing and Naturopathic pre-conceptual care, and if after that we could still not fall pregnant naturally, we would be turning to adoption before IVF. I fully understand the desire to have ones own biological child, but I could never see myself being one of those people who are willing to sell their cars, houses, and their sanity in order to conceive a child through IVF, when there are so many underpriviledged babies and children out there desperate for a good home, and someone to call mother. I'm still thinkin of adoption even though I know I can conceive naturally!! I think Brangelina have set an awesome example by adopting children from 3rd world countries. That alone tells me that it is highly unlikely they would have gone to the extent of IVF to conceive twins.... Just doesn't fit the picture IMO!!!:doh: Ok, I'll shut up now!!
PS- In regards to my post above, I don't mean to offend any IVF couples out there! I'm not saying IVF is wrong or bad or anything like that. Personally its just not a decision I would make. My heart does go out to anyone who is struggling to conceive naturally, via IVF or otherwise.
PPS- Adoption IS an option if it gets too tough!! he he....
In Australia, it is infinitely easier to gain access IVF than to access the adoption of a child. Australia has one of the most difficult, invasive, expensive and lengthy adoption processes of any of the developed countries. For an average Australian who wishes to have a child, they would be FAR more likely to have one through IVF than adoption.
Australia also has adoption laws that mean you cannot even keep trying to conceive via Assisted Conception once you start the adoption process. So in order to try to adopt, you have to stop trying to have a baby by any other means. Makes it doubly difficult, don't you think?
I am under 30 and have fertility issues! It is not always a function of age!.:
Detoxing and naturopathic preconception care is a great idea, but doesnt always work.
Sanity does not need to be sold to undergo IVF, although these women do go through an incredible emotional rollercoaster each cycle.
Not all women are allowed to adopt. The waiting list is huge, it is incredibly expensive, and there are not as many children that we are allowed to adopt, even if we want to. The application process is incredibly invasive and doesn't guarantee an adopted child at all.
For some women, IVF is the only way they can fulfil their biological (natural) desire for a child. This is what IVF is for, its not a twin factory, and it shouldnt be used for fertile women who can conceive naturally (im ok with same sex couples and single women using it).
YES i find it offensive. Offensive, and incredibly hurtful. Its like a slap in the face.
ditto what sushee said - adoption in australia (including inter-country adoption) is just as expensive, and infinitely more difficult to achieve than a child through IVF. and given age restrictions (i'm only 28, DH 43) a lot of us would be excluded.
even the adoption of "special needs children" - the ones that need someone with open arms and an open heart, as well as the strength to take them on, is extremely restricted. you also can't concurrently be applying for adoption and going through assisted conception - there is an either/or mentality which is just ludicrous. why shouldn't you, given how difficult adoption is, and how many people want to adopt, be able to continue assisted conception - if you get an IVF miracle before you are at the head of the queue, you step out of the race and someone else gets to move up a spot...
adoption is australia is just damn hard
You obviously have very little idea about adoption. It's a very tough option.:
I am by no means an expert on the adoption process, but I have seen some of the hoops that need to be jumped through.
Keeping in mind that an IVF stim cycle has the potential to put me in hospital for a week or more while recovering, and the emotional toll of the miscarriages has been immense...
IVF is a much easier, cheaper and more accessible option than IVF, not to mention that it's quicker in many cases. The actual process of adoption in Australia is incredibly difficult and time consuming. You're looking at a 5 year wait for most countries for ICA, which puts a whole lot of people in the catch 22 situation of needing to stop fertility treatment to be able to adopt, but by the time you finally get there, you're then too old. But now also too old to conceive even through IVF.
The medicare rebates for IVF made it possible for us to pursue it as a treatment option. There are no rebates or financial assistance for adoption, and from all I have read, it is FAR more expensive than IVF treatment in Australia.
Not to mention that all the detoxing and naturopathic treatment in the world can't actually fix some fertility problems. There's no magic cure for DH's sperm problems. There's no simple way to make me ovulate. There's no natural remedy to the immune and clotting problems that make it hard for my babies to stick. Sometimes the only answer is to break out the big guns.
BW
JB
I'm sure you don't mean to be offensive to AC couples, but I do feel that the comment you made:
Does make it sound like you think people who do IVF are being selfish for wanting their own biological child and that they should adopt an underprivileged child instead. I have no interest in adoption, if I couldn't have my own biological child then I would choose to have no children at all, that's just how I feel - I want my own biological child who shares my and my husband's genes. I think that's a pretty normal desire too and I don't feel bad about it. Adoption isn't for everyone, even if it were easier to do here than it is.:
I could never see myself being one of those people who are willing to sell their cars, houses, and their sanity in order to conceive a child through IVF, when there are so many underpriviledged babies and children out there desperate for a good home, and someone to call mother.
Not trying to have a go, just pointing out how that comment could be interpreted as a criticism of people who've undergone fertility treatment to have a child.
I hope you never have to go through the adoption process as you obviously have no idea of the logistics or cost involved. Fr one thing last year in Victoria a grand total of 14 children were placed up for adoption. If you wish to go overseas at present the current wait time is on average five years. During that five years you are waiting you CANNOT be undergoing any form of assisted conception, so what do you for that five years? twiddle your thumbs? (stupid stupid policy IMHO). Also the minimum cost to adopt a child is in the ballpark of at least $30,000 and that does not include the airfares and visas etc required to go to said country yada yada yada......
Also if you have ever in your life suffered from depression, have a chronic condition such as asthma, diabetes, arthritis, anything that makes you less than "perfect" forget it because although they are not supposed to be able to discriminate on the basis of health, the reality is that there are so few children availabel to adopt and so many people wanting to adopt that thee officials can be very very picky about who actually gets a child at the end of the day.
Personally i think having to twiddle my thumbs for five years doing absolutely nothing and having no child during that time, forking out an astronomical amount of money with no guarantee of a child at the end of it woukd be far more soul destroying than taking the more proactive approach of IVF. At least with IVF I am doing something and each test and/or cycle even if it fails brings us closer to understanding the reasons behind my infertility and closer to my goal of holding my own flesh and blood in my arms some day soon.
:clap: Mel :clap:
i have to spread the love though...
:clap: Fantastic Mel :clap:
I too have to share the love ;)
It seems there's lots of us that love Mel way too much.
Fantastic post, Mel. :clap:
BW
Wouldnt life be easy if EVERYONE could fall pg from rolling into the wetpatch on the bed!
Mel - your are a friggen star honey! Love being shared!!!!!!!
All very well said Mel. Of course.
And JB - from now on can you get it out of your head that;
a) fertility issues are age related
b) adoption is easy - or easier than IVF
c) that fertility issues are related to health issues that can be fixed by healthy living
d) that you have any idea of what you would do if you couldn't conceive - you can, therefore you will never know what you would do in that situation, and can't possible say that it's not something you would do.
Mel :hug: and to all of you going through IVF!
I have had a hard time trying to think of the right words to say in regards to this topic.
I don't think it's right that a couple that are able to conceive without assistance should be allowed access to IVF services. Personally I'm not insulted but I do feel for those who cannot achieve or sustain a PG without help.
I also agree wholeheartedly with Marydean when she says
The thought of someone who needs IVF being bumped or having their waiting times increased by someone who wants to use it for social or convenience reasons saddens me immensely.:
but I am concerned about the apportioning of medical resources to those who are in greatest need.
So far I have stayed out of this discussion because I was not really sure of my opinion on the original question.
However, Jellybean, your statement:
has left me absolutely breathless with its insensitivity and naivity.:
we would undergo extensive mutual detoxing and Naturopathic pre-conceptual care, and if after that we could still not fall pregnant naturally, we would be turning to adoption before IVF.
How I would dearly love to have the option a) to make the choice to have a child with my husband's genes and/or b) to adopt a child with my husband.
Please tell me how detoxing and natropathic care would have made my husband produce sperm? Believe me, we had one natropath guarantee just that - we gave her 6 months, and she could not do as she had promised. This was when we were clutching at straws for anything to work.
Please tell me how a man finding out he can never be a father biologically, and his wife, can hold on to all aspects of their sanity? Needless to say, when you are told that you will NEVER be able to produce a child biologically it does things to your mental health - we were lucky to survive the bouts of anxiety and depression and come out the other side with a marriage and the intention to have a child.:
I could never see myself being one of those people who are willing to sell their cars, houses, and their sanity in order to conceive a child through IVF,
And of course, because of these diagnoses, we will never be able to adopt.
So we are putting all our time, money and energy into having a child via IVF.
And my answer to the original question - no I am not insulted, just amazed that people would put themselves through the pain and heartache that we have, in order to have twins.
Top post Gargy.
I hope my post didn't annoy you, I did wonder if my going on about biological children would be offensive to people involved in donor processes. If it was insensitive, I apologise.
I have wondered what I would do if either DH or I couldn't have a biological child, and I do know that it's something I can't possibly decide on because it hasn't happend to me. To be honest, I feel that even if I couldn't be the biological mother, I would use donor eggs with my husband's sperm or vice versa because a huge part of it for me is to carry the baby in my body to to give birth, I feel like that would be integral to *me* feeling like a mother. Not that I'm saying people who haven't done that aren't real mothers - of course they are, just talking about my feelings.
So anyway, I really hope that my post didn't hurt your feelings or come across as insensitive.
xxxx
Ahhh JB to be so sure of how you think you would behave or choose to behave if you were in a position that you had to. Interesting perspective after you have already had two children of your own. If you do choose to go down the adoption path, I wish you all the best as it is probably harder than IVF in some ways. As the other ladies have so well outlined adoption is near impossible and getting harder to access all the time.
I actually shared some of your perspective when I was in my 20s. I felt it was a worthy decision to choose to have a child through adoption (when I hadn't even contemplated I may have difficulty conceiving my own child)because of many ideological issues I felt strongly about at the time...that was until I turned 31 and had the most amazing and overwhelming physical and mental urge for me to procreate. I never expected it to happen (hadn't thought about it much) and then one day BOOM! As an subfertile woman I sometimes wish it had never ever been switched on.
In my experience adoption is a long and arduous process and I really admire anyone that commits to going through it these days. As Mel said it takes years (ACT is now looking at 6+ years), you are at the beck and call of the adoption authorities, you can not undergo any Assisted Conception while going through it and must wait at least 6 months after finishing AC to be able to even submit an expression of interest to start the application process, or risk having to start the process all over again. You need to remain in the same state (you can't move away, take a job interstate etc) while your file is overseas (for an unknown period of time), having every aspect of your life looked over and judged etc. Adoption in Australia is increasingly difficult to access and success is not guaranteed.
Infertility can take a lot of time to diagnose, and then surgery or IVF seems the magic cure all, but not always. By the time adoption becomes more of an option in your mind years can have passed with the prospect of staring down at least 6 more years of the same old waiting. For me that would take me out to 10 years since starting TTC and I would be 45 by the time the child (if I were still eligible) would arrive. So no I don't agree with your PS that Adoption is an option if it gets too tough, and it misses the point that many things about infertility are tough, adoption is just as tough if not tougher than the rest of them.
Devon,
Your post was not insensitive - actually it would probably be how I would feel, if I had the choice.
Thanks for your understanding.
Also thanks for your comment about my post - I'm feeling a little raw which is why I've stayed away from here for so long.
Had to share the love Dusty - :clap:
The silliest thing I find about this thread...the way people dont realise how insensitive they are when they say im not being insensitive! Who are they kidding?? themselves???
i'm really hoping by the outpouring in this thread since this post that even ONE person learns that comments like this are amongst the most insensitive an infertile person can hear. it's almost as bad as "just relax" or "go on holiday, stop thinking about it" - they are comments that cut to the core, and do nothing but show that there are far too many people that think this journey is easy.:
FWIW, i'm pretty sure it's clear now how much adoption ISN'T an option if it "gets too tough". it's a case of one or the other, and they're both equally emotionally trying for those going through the process. if you really think ivf or adoption are easy, go and do some reading about what an ivf cycle entails, or find your local states adoption application process. look at the times, the expense, and the wishy washy maybe outcomes - and then tell me that either is the easy way out.
i'm sure there is not a single person who's posted here of their IVF journey that would CHOOSE to go through it over natural conception. hell, even those in same sex couples or single women take the lesser option (IUI) with minimal invasive procedures. it's devastating in the first place telling you that you have minimal to no chance of natural conception, and every step of the way feeling like you're fighting a losing battle.
i would love to be one of those individuals that doesn't understand IVF - on this one ignorance truly would be bliss. for those of you for whom this is the case - think a bit before you post. we are REAL people, with REAL feelings, laying our hearts on the line to try to help you understand - don't kick us while we're down
I agree, it's a bit like saying, I'm not racist but... (!) This isn't a comment about any specific posts in this thread, but rather a general comment about how you can never really understand the heartache unless you have walked that path yourself. I imagine this is especially true for couples who are going down the AC path, as the desire for a baby is so meshed with our deepest yearnings, and it's such a personal and deeply private journey. So people who have not experienced it are often largely ignorant of the enormous physical and emotional trials of that path. Hence the unwitting insensitivity.:
The silliest thing I find about this thread...the way people dont realise how insensitive they are when they say im not being insensitive! Who are they kidding?? themselves???
I think if, after all that, ANYONE is under any illusion that adoption is somehow an 'easy' solution to infertility, and even a solution to the very real, very complex issues associated with infertility, you truly need to educate yourself on the facts before contributing further to this thread.
Yet again this has become an attack on why someone would choose to do IVF, which is NOT what the topic is about. Make no mistake that we will not tolerate further derogatory comments about why anyone would do IVF or allusions to the state of mind of those who do IVF. If you really feel like an intellectual discussion about why someone with infertility would chose to do IVF, please feel free to email me. I have lots to say on the subject.
So now that we have made our points clear on that particular subject, can we please get back on topic.
Had second thoughts about posting :)
:
Are you kidding? I seriously read this and the previous post about 10 times to try and even comprehend why someone would post something like this. Sorry - I'm sure I'm going to get a smack on the hand for posting this or even get kicked off but I am gob-smacked.
Jellybean - go and get an education. Read a few stories on BB in the long term TTC or google IVF and get a clue.
Sorry - again - I'm stunned.
I'm still absolutely dumbfounded at how someone can so calmly state so precisely what they would do when faced with infertility. Fact is, it's a bit like quantum physics... Which may sound a bit odd, but we're talking about being able to observe a particle, but the act of observing influences the particle and therefore changes what's happening.
What I mean is that you can calmly and precisely state that this is what you would do when faced with infertility, but you can never really know until you are actually in that situation. The reality of infertility changes everything you have ever felt about having children and what you would do.
For example... my husband, absolutely adamant that we would never do IVF. Even when faced with our initial diagnoses of fertility problems, he was all for taking the low-intervention approach to conception. Sure, it was going to take some help, but IVF was still completely off the table. Then the true extent of our combined fertility problems came out when we saw the fertility specialist for the second time... the low-intervention approach MAY have worked if it was just my side of the problem we were dealing with, but DH's sperm were so bad that IVF with ICSI was our ONLY hope of ever conceiving. No IVF, no ICSI, no baby. I was always willing to do whatever it would take, but when DH was confronted with the reality of the situation, he was quite happy to go through the IVF process. Just one cycle of egg collection, whatever frozen embryos we get, and that would be it. Lets just say that three egg collections, three miscarriages, seeing me become incredibly sick twice, five embryo transfers later... we finally have success.
You can form whatever ideas about what you would do when in this situation, but the reality of actually BEING in the situation will change all your ideas, plans and preconceived notions about IVF and what you would and would not do.
To use an analogy some may find easier to relate to: It's easy to say you would never steal bread to feed your starving child... but what happens when you are faced with said starving child? When it's steal bread or starve to death? You can't say for sure what you would do, because as soon as you are in that situation your reality changes, your frame of reference changes. Would you really allow your child to starve to death because of a decision made in happier times that you would never steal bread?
On another note... if my sanity were all it cost me to conceive the child I am now pregnant with - it was damned well spent! I think that being forever childless would have done far greater damage to my sanity, despite all that the IVF journey threw at me.
I don't think there are enough rep points to give to those beautiful empathic people who have never been faced with fertility problems yet are so incredibly supportive of those in the midst of it. I won't say understanding, because if one thing is (hopefully) becoming more and more obvious in this thread - it's simply not something you can understand unless you live it. Thank you to those who just listen and offer shoulders to cry on when needed. I don't think I have the words to adequately express how much I appreciate your words and support both in this thread and in the rest of life.
BW
Why do people post with their opinions when they have NFI about IVF or Adoption?
How could you possibly know what you would or wouldn't do unless you were in the situation, unable to conceive children naturally?
Great posts Melbel & Lenny :clap:
JB, it's great you would consider adoption. DH and 'I talked about this pre-TTC: he would rather do IVF than adopt because of biology (although was happy to remain childless, but knew that it wasn't an option for me). Thankfully we didn't need either, but the point is that even in the cold, people make different decisions. We may have changed our minds should we not have DS, but who knows? Thankfully, not us.
That doesn't make me a better or worse person than you. Just that our decisions would have been different. Adoption has different requirements to IVF and different perspectives from prospective parents. It has different needs legally and financially. They aren't really comparable TBH because the processes are SO different and require different parts of yourself to be exposed and laid bare at different times and in different orders.
I just want to give huge hugs to the other women who have gone through this decision which I know we would ALL rather have remained hypothetical. You're all heroes and thank you all for sharing your journies with us.
Since my original post, I have become more educated about IVF - I was fortunate to conceive naturally, but did have 4 miscarriages and took years to have the children I have, so I do just want to say that everything is relative - someone who has never had a miscarriage can't understand what it is truly like, someone who has children of both genders will never truly understand my longing for a girl, someone who has never gone thru IVF (like me) will never understand the obvious complexities and heartaches, but I do want to say - there are probably alot of us dealing with different types of heartaches in our journeys to have children, do we really have the right to judge anyone's feelings? I know since this topic, I am far more understanding of others pain, it doesn't however diminsh my own personal struggles - just gives me more empathy. I used to cringe when someone would tell me "it was an accident or it wasn't planned", but long ago I realised how can they possibly understand what I went through to have my 3 beautiful angel boys... I pray success for everyone in their stuggles to have a child - what ever option they have to endure or are fortunate enough to be blessed with and am thankful for all the wonderful people in here who have helped open my eyes. I still do not feel insulted, as simply, I do not know what others struggle with, I only know my own...
Okay now I really am feeling like I'm being ignored. I understand the high emotions involved but if everyone does not get back on topic NOW, I will lock this thread. Final warning.
hi
i had trouble having Ds1 and fortunatly after years of natural theropy i fell PG the week before i was due to start my first IVF cycle, but fell naturally with my twins.
I'm not insulted as i believe technology is their to be used, BUT in sying that i worry about the complications having twins can have as most are premi.
I 100% understand the hearsbreak of having fertility problems can have i like to think that if having twins makes someone happy than so be it. i always wanted twins and i hope that those who do wish for the joy of twins can have them. and i prey that those having fertility problems also get their dreams too.
No matter the method a single or couple use to bring children into the world is private and sacred. I find it very upsetting and offensive anyway we do not know the facts and therefore cannot pass judgement on how the twins came to be. I can tell you from personal experience that IVF it's not easy regardless of who you are and is not something chosen lightly. Why don't we just celebrate the birth?