very interesting subject especially IF you have done ivf
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very interesting subject especially IF you have done ivf
As a mother who has conceived naturally and now sadly has to use IVF because of reasons which are privately my own (medical), i think it is up to the individual couple who are trying to have the baby/ies. It is not anyone elses business not now not ever, and i certainly don't think that it should ever be up for discussion as to how your child/ren are brought into this world. Everyone is being so critical of a couple having IVF for twins, but look at the news recently how a couple is taking their IVF dr to court because they got twins,and they only wanted ONE child. They want to send one of the twins to a private school with all the bells and whistles, while the other lives the "cinderella" syndrome and has to go to a public school, and the normal things in life while the other lives the live of luxury. I thought we were meant to be thankful for what we have been given not the other way around, but now i think this topic needs to be put to bed as it has now gone past the point of being a simple polling question to a full on debate. cheers kiya
I don't care how people (celebrities or 'civilians') conceive; I only care about what sort of parents they are and whether their kids are happy.
Kiya, the couple that sued their doctor never said one child would go public, one private. they sued for the cost of sending the additional child to a private school as they needed to put a number on their financial expectations. they've not said their children would be treated different to each other, they've simply said that the lifestyle they wish to give those children will be more expensive having two children. that situation, however, is not relevant to this discussion. they didn't have IVF just to have twins. they had fertility treatment because they couldn't conceive naturally.
i do believe we have a right to have an opinion on whether or not otherwise fertile people, able to conceive naturally, are able to access medical technology that has been developed for the purpose of helping infertile individuals to conceive. why shouldn't we have a healthy debate about it. the point of the thread was to ask if individuals are offended or insulted by the notion of people using ivf solely to give birth to twins - it has evolved into a discussion about WHAT IVF entails, why we don't think it's right, why we, as indivduals, are offended. the poll shows that over 60% of the respondants, and by no means all IVF/AC individuals, find the thought insulting/offensive.
you've said
and yet in the same breath, you've said it's up to the individual. I AM thankful for the opportunityto access reproductive technology because for me, it IS a need. i would be ecstatic to not need to access it ever. i AM thankful for the sake of my friends that they've not had to go through this. i just want other people to be equally thankful for the blessing they have in being able to conceive naturally, and not to take away from those in genuine NEED for a WANT that is highly unlikely to be fulfilled via IVF.:
I thought we were meant to be thankful for what we have been given
in Australia, this is entirely hypothetical - we have a medical system with ethics committees that are smart enough to stop this sort of practice taking place. but overseas, this isn't necessarily the case, and it scares me to think where it will lead...
Kelly, i know this topic has gone off point from what you started it out as, and i'm sorry if i have contributed to that in any way. i am just passionate about making sure people understand this from the POV of a long termer...
Well said, BG. :clap:
This was never going to be as easy as voting and not explaining why you voted the way you did. It is obvious to me now that many, many people not only have no idea about the workings of IVF, but are also blissfully ignorant (or have no empathy) for the those who suffer the kind of pain and despair that comes with long term infertility. I accept that that is the way the world works, and no matter how much I try to explain otherwise, there will be those who will never be able to understand more than they themselves have experienced. So yes, I believe all that can be said has been said in this thread.
As a seasoned IVF'er at this stage of my life do I find it insulting that fertile couples access IVF for twins...No I dont
But years ago whilst trying to fall pregnant month after month, I found alot of things insulting ,the parents that already had children accessing IVF and taking them to appointments or the the heavily pregnant woman that sat in the waiting room for the Fertility specialist /Obst. But I never bothered to look and see if there was "a story" that often is heartbreaking and really when looking at a waiting room how do you tell who is infertile. I know it has been debated that a child is not a need more of a desire. I know now that if my desire never eventuated that the want to live would of been no longer.
But after living IVF for the better part of 5 yrs and winning I am a lucky one. Some people will never see the other side of IVF when you can finally let it go.
Another one applauding here, too. :clap:
Yes, all that can be said has been said... sadly, those who don't, won't or can't understand will continue to be ignorant no matter what, and those of us who have been through the horrors of IVF and infertility will continue to beat our heads against brick walls trying to make people understand that it's not as simple and straight forward as it is made to seem at times.
BW
I thought that the majority of posts in this thread were great. It's obvious that people have some very strong opinions on this topic, and for the most part, I thought everyone was debating in an extrememly mature manner. I want to thank everyone for making this thread very enjoyable to read, thought provoking, and for teaching those of us that don't know much about IVF more about the procedures, details and emotions involved.:
Kelly, I don't think that the journalist should feel bad at all about the responses that were posted. There are some great responses that I think really encompass the entire issue. I understand if she no longer wants to run the article, but I think that an article could actually highlight some of the "unknowns" about IVF to the general public.
Not sure I understand.. does that mean those that voted that they were not insulted are ignorant and have no empathy for those undergoing IVF?:
From what I've read, insulted doesn't seem to describe a lot of the emotions expressed in this thread. If anything there is anger that otherwise fertile couples could take up valuable resources, envy has been mentioned as something people are feeling too. So I don't think not understanding how 'insulted' comes into the equation is showing a lack of empathy, it seems more like a misunderstanding of the emotions expressed. I personally think it was a badly worded question and has thrown off some of the responses.
:hug:BG & BW..:clap: just, thank you for having your say as some of us dont feel comfy enough doing this and you both couldnt have said things on this topic better and i agree in saying unless you have actually been through ivf then sometimes people just dont get IT!!
Liz - i'm pretty sure that comment had nothing to do with the voting results. i read it as being more about the comments that are basically telling people to "get over it", the ones that are saying those of us who do feel insulted and/or offended have no right to feel that way....:
No LIz, that's not what I meant, so I'll clarify.
There have been posters here who have said that they feel that there is no reason for an IVFer to feel legitimately upset, insulted, annoyed, whatever, by something like this. These posters, I feel, are the ones who are ignorant of the kind of pain and depth of despair that comes with long term infertility.
I voted that I was not offended either, so no, of course I didn't mean if you voted that you were not insulted, that you were ignorant of the pain of IVF.
*snap* BG, ditto.
hmm.. ok. Feels like it's a bit of a battle of words more than anything tho, because I didn't read those posts as saying that no-one has the right to feel insulted, but rather not understanding how people can feel personally insulted by other people's decisions on how they conceive.
I guess, again, it's all about personal experience how to take what things are said. I'm not an IVFer so dont' necessarily have an emotional response to these posts.
I have read through opinions and as someone who has been through IVF resulting in twins who didnt make it through the pregnancy and I am about to go again even though it is the most gut renching thing to do and physically changes you...... I am still not insulted by someone who can naturally conceive using it to have twins. My only thought would be.... why would you deliberatly put yourself through something that years later you are still trying to recover from.... wouldnt it be easier to have 2 natural pregnancies....... I ve done that too... and I know which option I would go with IF i had the option which i no longer do.
In My Opinion...... as long as the children are loved and cared for.
On the outside, it seems easy enough to say 'why should anyone care how anyone else conceives'? Or to wonder why anyone would be insulted. But to a long term IVFer, to whom the world can sometimes seem full of injustice, to hear that a fertile couple, by virtue of their money or their status, would use IVF for the sake of the 'fashion statement' of having twins, would and does upset. These are people who would give their right arm to be so lucky as to have one child naturally, who wish they would never have had to undergo IVF. For them to see IVF used as a matter of convenience and vanity, trivialises the very real, very raw journeys many IVFers are going through.
So yes, I imagine it then upsets them to hear people telling them that they have nothing to be upset about, because they do have a legimate reason for being upset.
ETA I don't think even one LTer who's posted in this thread is concerned by anyone who voted that they were not insulted by this topic. In fact, many (including me) voted that they weren't insulted. But when it is suggested that those who voted that they were insulted should perhaps 'concentrate on their own lives', 'not concern themselves with what others are doing' or that it's 'bizarre' that they would be insulted, that's an attack on their very personal reaction borne out of their difficult circumstances. I don't blame them for being upset. I'm upset on their behalf.
I'm not insulted but I don't agree with it either, for all the reasons that have already been said. If there's a natural alternative, it seems frivilous to use a difficult medical method, though it sounds to me like anyone who WOULD do that probably isn't informed on the reality of it (such as the fact that it doesn't guarantee a twin pregnancy). I can completely understand how one would be insulted if they'd been through IVF. It must be awful to go through that, particularly if it's been a difficult journey, and then see others doing it for no real reason. I don't think that fertile couples should have access to fertility treatments no matter how big their bank balance. The other thing is, I don't agree with someone deliberately having twins because of the extra complications that can arise.
I find it a bit wrong.. because the way I see it is that they are using up those resources (ie the doctors, nurses, appointments etc at the fertility clinic) that could otherwise be used by someone who does actually need them. So, in that sense I think its pretty unfair, maybe even selfish, and I dont agree with that sort of thing happening.
that would be interesting to find out whether any IVF clinics would treat fertile couples to conceive twins, or for people who would be willing to pay huge sums of money (maybe not in Australia but overseas)
slightly off topic but interesting how suddendly so many hollywood people are having twins "naturally".
Well I'd like to thank the people on this thread that have helped me
hollybolly for her awesome post back there, yep I'm not insulted but it raises emotion.
BW for this line: None of us NEED to be a mother. But that biological urge is there for a reason. If it weren't there, where would the human race be?
And minky for making me think, so that next time when I'm sooo envious sitting next to that heavily pregnant lady at the IVF clinic I will wonder what her story is and know that maybe it's her little IVF miracle after say seven tries? Thanks so much minky.
And for the record I asked my DH his opinion of all this and he wasn't offended at all and wondered if he was missing something? I suppose his opinion influenced mine because I never know what I'm feeling :/
But I know that if I had to wait in line because someone fertile had pushed in in front of me I would be ropable.:angry: I have never had to wait at my clinic?
When I thought "journalist" I thought some middle aged bloke not a mother with a toddler.
I think that's how the rumour started, elixa. Many hollywood women are having twins in their late 30s and 40s, and are openly admitting to using IVF in order to get pregnant. This starts an assumption that all people having twins used IVF and off we head down the slippery slope to "no fertility problems, they used IVF merely to have twins". People forget that sometimes twins happen naturally. Sure, not as frequently as with IVF, but it still happens.
Smithy, thank you. While undergoing IVF I was always pretty determined to make people understand the realities of it. Now that I've come out of the other side with success, I'm even more determined. I know there are times you just can't stand up and be heard because the emotions are still too raw.
BW
Hi girls,
I have not contributed to this thread because of exactly what you said here BW.
but I think I can now as many of you lovely ladies have expressed some of the emotions I have been feeling.:
I know there are times you just can't stand up and be heard because the emotions are still too raw.
I don't find the concept of having IVF to produce twins "insulting" but I do find it upsetting. I didn't vote as it is not quite the right word for me. In some ways it is resentment that someone can do what I can't but that they still want more. In some of the posts in this thread people have said everyone has the right to choose how they conceive. And that upsets me because no-one who has to do IVF would choose to do it. being infertile takes many choices away as you are forced to do somethings you would never wish to do. Just a few I can think of:
* stick yourself with needles a few times a day
* subject yourself to anaesthetic and surgery
* use your sick leave/annual leave/days off for doctors appointments/surgery
* ask your co-workser to cover for you for appointments
* sometimes have to tell your boss and co-workers about needing to do IVF
* work your social life around surgeries
* have sex when necessary (and not when you want to)
I am one of the lucky ones as medically I find IVF a breeze and have never had any problems, although I have had to undergo an unnecessary procedure. But I find the social aspects and the lack of choice and the things that are imposed on you to be really difficult. I guess it is having choice and control taken away. So for someone to still have control and choice over their fertility but then still want more, it upsets me. Yes, partly the green eyed monster but hopefully we are all allowed a little of that.
Can I say also that "assisted conception" is a business in America and some other countries, that does not resemble even slightly what we are able to do in Australia. In the US, as well as being able to transfer two embryos, you can buy eggs, sperm and surrogacy. In most states of australia, you cannot do any of that. I think the journo was right in deciding not to publish the story, even if only for the reason that it gives the wrong impression of what can be done in australia. I get a bit annoyed, with anything in the media that comes from the US and they try to localise it. We are very different societies with different laws and norms.
Anney, you just reminded me about the one thing I'd forgotten about... they way people treat you differently because you are using IVF to conceive. Because I became so ill after egg collections, it was necessary for me to tell more people at work than I wanted to. One in particular then figured she had free reign on asking me where we were at with cycles, and when we were transferring. I simply could not get her to understand that her questions were intrusive and upsetting and the equivalent of asking someone when they were having sex if they were able to cencieve the natural way...
Yes, IVF turns your whole life upside down.
BW
What you said Sushee - but i can never put my thoughts into words like you do!
I only hope that the money that is paid/received by all IVF treatments goes towards improving outcomes for all in terms of conception.
Insulted isn't the right word, but I do worry about the futrure and designer babies.
Hey I don't really care about Angelina and brad.
I'm pregnant with twins and I always get people asking me was it natural.
Yeah it was, just because I'm having twins dosen't mean I used IVF, it can happen
without IVF.
Cathie
I have been through 12 years of infertility, 5 of those years were IVF years which resulted in me being pregnant but unfortunatly i miscarried them both. sadly not all IVF results in a happy outcome. The last time i went on IVF i nearly died as a severe side affect of the combination of the drugs & the egg collection itself. I put on 24kg in 4 days, just in fluid, had 2litres of fluid drained from my chest cavity so i could breath, my liver was failing & i was cathiterized due to the impact on my kidneys. Oh & not to forget my ovaries had swollen to the size of oranges, close to rupturing, the pain was excruciating & lasted a week. The inability to even sit up in the hospital bed or wipe my own backside was as you could imagine-degrading. This is far from a sympathy vote but is the true story of the other side of IVF that we don't often hear about. The toll it takes on your body in every way imaginable is hard, not to mention your marriage-if it survives-mine didn't. Fortunatly good things come to those who wait. I conceived naturally, out of the blue to my wonderful partner of 4yrs. Iam 14wks preg, had a few scares along the way but all is good. Life is great. Yes, i find the idea of using IVF on a healthy couple to achieve twins, insulting.
I don't really find it 'insulting' per se but I do get jealous and think 'Bloody hell, all I'm asking for is one!'
I have been through IVF (ICSI cycle) and do find it a little insulting that someone would choose to go through IVF that does not need to.
We, like many couples have been down the long hard and heart breaking path of trying to conceive for three years (charting and other hormone treatments). We then had to go down the IVF path which was another whole level of emotional and trying times (and not to mention time consuming and expensive - not that we cared at all).
I feel frustrated that someone would chose to go through a multitude of Drs appointments, scans, hormone treatment, injections, procedures, invasive tests etc, when we didn't have a choice.
I am feeling emotional just typing this post and words are eluding me, but I simply feel that it is unfair and shallow to just want twins. I just want a healthy baby and if we were blessed with twins then we would be able to say bye bye to this process that we would not have chosen to have in our lives.
Now up to Cycle No 4 , TTC bub #2. One little angel....
I voted that I don't need assistance & find it insulting.
In actual fact I was told twice I needed IVF but conceived naturally.
I guess it's not exactly insulting but I do think it's wrong for people to be asking for more than one baby. I do not have any issues with people getting two transferred but of course I'm talking about infertile couples here.
I am very glad I live in Australia where this scenario would not be possible.
In the US IVF clinics have very different rules to ours. In general if you are under 30 they transfer 2, 30-38 3 is the usual, 38 to 40 4 is standard and over 40 they will transfer as many as they get. Some less scrupulous IVF clinics there will implant more than these amounts in younger women. It supposedly increases your chances but what it really does is it helps increase their statistics for pregnancy rates which of course are far higher than their statistics for live births due to the m/c risk for multiple pregnancies.
Why anyone would "order" twins I can't imagine. One bub keeps me pretty busy.
I'm torn on this, in so many ways it is wrong because there are so so many people genuinely struggling to have just one baby, but then at the same time its kind of like, well if they are silly enough to waste the money, time, emotions etc on it well more fool them.
Overall, isn't the important thing that the babies are loved? If someone is willing to pay to have twins put in them then to me it shows that they are committed and will cherish the children.
Such a hard one to decide on!
I think whether or not you 'pay' to have your child (twins or not) you should be committed to loving them and caring for them, shouldn't you? To me, having a child IS a commitment - you don't need IVF to show you have a commitment to your child/ren. As much as I love my (IVF) son, I don't expect I love him anymore deeply than a mother who conceived naturally. I don't think IVF or the amount of money spent necessarily equates with the amount of love you will give your kids.
ditto sushee - i was thinking the same!
having the money to be able to pay to have your child doesn't show you love them any more or less than a naturally conceived child. some of the best parents i know struggle to get by week to week - and others that have money to throw away frivolously aren't all that great as parental role models. a child isn't a fashion accessory that you should "pay" to have, and certainly paying doesn't make you love them any more - it doesn't show a strong desire to have another child - it shows an attitude of getting what you want simply because you can!
if you have the capacity in your heart to love, you'll love your child no matter what. my children, when i have them, will be loved irrespective of whether they come from IVF or a quick roll in the hay with DH. that is the kind of love you should have for a child - not the kind of love that is conditional on you "getting it all your way"...
I don't think I'd feel any differently about DS if I'd have "paid" for him. I have enough love for more babies, and the joy is I don't have to worry about not being able to pay the mortgage or dying in the process of conceiving. That's wonderful for me and I am very blessed to have that - but that doesn't lessen the love I have for him or any potential future child.
This has been so eye-opening and tbh people do need to know more about the specifics of IVF - AND the specifics of what can be done in which country. OK, so Australia has a good record, the US is concerned more about money (now there's a shocker).
Thank you all so much for sharing your stories, ladies, no matter how insulted and hurt you are feeling about this issue.
Hi there,
I will start by saying that I dont believe ANYTHING I read in the celebrity mag's.
I would be rather dissapointed if someone I knew used IVF for the sole purpose of having twins. Why not just try for 2 close together??
There are soooo many couples having trouble with having 1 baby and probably cant afford IVF if you can afford to waste money on your own selfish 'wants' why not help someone else?
Interesting topic! As some one doing IVF for medical reasons, and about to have a cycle where two embryos are put back, I dont find it insulting that someone not 'infertile' would undergo treatment to try and have twins.
From a rational perspective I guess I wonder at why you would do that given the extra risks associated with any medical treatment (eg stim medication/pick up operation etc), and the risks of a twin pregnancy, and yet DH and I are willing to take on the risk of twins to achieve our baby(ies).
However, there are many reasons why 'fertile' people may use IVF/AFT (as stated earlier by BG), and from an emotional viewpoint I guess I dont feel that I can judge them just because their use of IVF is for a different reason than us.
As argued by many others, IVF is not a walk in the park emotionally or medically, so I figure if people make the choice to do IVF (for medical or other reasons), and try for twins, then they must have a very good reason. Personally, I dont want to judge if that is a good or bad reason to do IVF, as I hate it when people do that to me!
IVF doesnt guarantee you even one baby, let alone twins, so to do it for the sole purpose of having two babies at once is a serious misuse of the treatment IMO. There are women on waiting lists, and those who can only afford to do it every so often, and these are women that need it. So why the drs are allowing 'fertile' couples to use the system is beyond me.
I don't have fertility issues and i don't find it insulting.
If they can afford to have the IVF and raise the kids without government handouts let them do it.
I guess this is a complicated question, because the info about Brangelina is just a rumour, and what they are rumoured to have done wouldn't be allowed to happen in Australia anyway. I think the Australian system is good, keeping the AR treatments for people who need them. I would hate us to go down the US path where money can buy you anything and the poor get no health care.
I guess what I find a little bit annoying (if the scenario with Brangelina is true, which I'm not saying it is) is that the super rich can get anything they want, anytime they want and the rest of us plebs have to go thorough the whole waiting game and might not end up getting what we desire more than anything else in the world. But it doesn't really apply to us here in Australia, so it doesn't really have any impact on my life. I like to try to ignore celebrities because I don't think they deserve all the attention they get.
As for fertile people being allowed to have IVF to conceive twins, as people have said - there's no guarantee that you'll even get pg through IVF, let alone conceive twins. The thing I find most irritating is the total lack of awareness out there of what is really involved in IVF (I haven't done IVF myself, just OI and IUI, but I've definitely spent some time in the world of fertility treatment). I can't stand the general perception that IVF is an easy option when it's pretty much the hardest option you can take and no one who knows anything about it would even contemplate it unless it was their only option. Our two years of TTC, miscarriage and 6 months of fert treatment almost destroyed me, lost me 2/3 of my friends and we are still feeling the impacts on our marriage even now I am pg. And I didn't even go through IVF. So what I find insulting is the media and society being uneducated and perpetuating the view that IVF is an easy and guaranteed way to get a baby.
"Brangelina" are a VERY public couple, and we all know that what is printed by the media often has no scrap of truth to it.
I guess at the end of the day no one really knows what goes on inside a relationship other than those in the relationship. IMPO i dont think it is fair to speculate on wether it was right or wrong untill they admit that they did in fact use assisted conception to conceive the twins.
TTC is an emotional rollercoaster as we all well know. Angelina has redialy admitted that she has had mental health issues in the past, maybe TTC was taking a toll on her health?
I dont think anyone has the right to question ANYONES decision to use assisted conception. As it is a personal decision. I think the real question here should be how would you feel if the whole world was questioning your reasons if you were using this method for conception??
I think people are forgetting that they have now adopted 3 children, and no doubt more in the future. They spend a hell of a lot of time working with charity organisations around the world, not to mention the millions and millions of dollars that they donate.
I think it is sad that people are focusing on their methods of conception as opposed to their humanitaran efforts. That is by far the greatest injustice of this whole issue.
Elyse - if you ready the majorty of this thread, it is "Brad and Angelina aside" - even the initial poll question. what celebrities do in their life is of no consequence to me. i'm not a gossip monger, i don't read anything about them, or any other celeb, and i really couldn't care less what is going on in their lives. their humanitarian efforts, their mental health issues - they are not relevant to this discussion at all
what IS relevant is that the media use something that is EXTREMELY personal to a lot of us, and make it into the latest gossip to sell a few extra issues in a slow news week. the mentality that "if you can afford to pay to have your children conceived to your liking, who cares" - sorry, but a lot of us DO care. this attitude that money is able to buy you what you want is ridiculous and it's that attitude that so many of us find highly insulting. we're by no means living on the poverty line, but we have to work damn hard to save the dollars to pay for a treatment we have NO CHOICE but to undertake if we want to have a family. i have to submit to invasive, humiliating medical tests, risk my health every time, face a higher than normal chance of miscarriage, just to have a CHANCE to conceive even one child. i KNOW there is no guarantee of it working - and i sure as hell know there is no guarantee that there will be a twins pregnancy if two embryo's are put back - and i find it insulting that people think i'm taking the easy way out to do it this way!
I'm not specifically talking about Brad and Angelina here, but when a couple uses IVF for the SOLE purpose of having twins, that to me, goes beyond IVF for the purpose of treating infertility, and becomes about taking for granted what your body can already do naturally in the pursuit of a 'fashion statement' (which, truthfully, is FAR from guaranteed, anyway).
I do believe that it's fair for people to have an opinion on the matter. I know I would have strong opinions if IVF were used to help a convicted child abuser conceive a child, so there is a line in the sand that we all have as to what we feel is acceptable and unacceptable to us. And no, I have no problems with anyone questioning why I used IVF to conceive. I know why I have - I am infertile. Which is what IVF treats. I've certainly not kept it a secret, so why would I have a problem with that?