60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

[Heaven]

True Arcadia! I never ever thought I'd end up homeschooling. I may have had some very narrow minded opinions of it myself in the past. But here I am. Never expected I'd breastfeed a toddler either. Parenting changed my mind on a lot of things. Who knows where the future will take us!

[Teeki]

I think JF explained it well that it's not *just* what the child wants to do, it's a partnership and the parents are providing a lot of interesting and engaging activities for them. Kids are by nature curious and inquisitive, if there are good opportunities provided such as I've seen, I really can't imagine that a child would instead choose to sit and play a game console all day. Especially if this has been their life all along - active, engaging, learning, why would they suddenly decide to just sit and do nothing?

Or, if you don't want your kids doing that type of activity, just don't buy a Wii.

[OceanPrincess]

Or put the Wii away, out of sight out of mind works a treat in my house

[emmalee86]

I guess there could definitely be questions when the children are older as to why their parents decided to homeschool/unschooling and perhaps they may feel like they have missed out on something but at the end of the day if that child is successful in life and gets to where they want to be then isn't that all that matters?

For personal experience both me and my DH never went well at school or in a structured learning environment, however when we both left school and found our passion we were motivated to learn because it was something that interested us and we are now both extremely successful in our fields.. And I think , from what I have read, unschooling follows that principal (correct me if I'm wrong) that if a child is interested In something that child will be more involved in a project/subject/lesson therefore they are getting more out of their child, the trick is just to expose them to a wide variety of subjects and see what lights the spark and running with that and exploring all aspects of that curiosity, and I think that is absolutely fantastic! I think that children should be excited to learn and be interested in what they are taught..

There are many things that I was forced to learn in school that, not that I even remember what was taught most of the time, has never benefitted me in life so I would be highly skeptical to say that school is in fact the better option for EVERY child..

There is never only one way to do things, there is never one right way to do things..

The more I follow this thread the more jealous I become that I am not in a position to do this with my daughter as I think she would benefit so much more from this than school!

[Ginger]

but what if the child asks you to get the wii out of the hiding place because that is what they want to do today. isn't it supposed to be about what the child wants?

[Tegam]

Ginger your responses are getting worse and worse.... A debate is fun to read, this is not.

We don't have a wii, my kids don't watch tv, they don't have iPods or anything electrical. They play, board games, they ride bikes they play in sand pits they draw. They go to school but they have all weekend to ask for this but don't. Dd1 and dd2 are 9 and 7 in yrs 5 and 2 they know they exists but still don't ask. No biggy.

I can't imagine that unschooling or gentle parenting would mean they could eat what they want, play what they want sleep when they want. It's team parenting. They spend all day interacting and encouraging their kids to learn. Not work all day and encourage their kids to leave them alone on weekends (how most of my friends use the electrical devises - cheap babysitting).

[Lenny]

isn't it supposed to be about what the child wants?

That's not the message i took out of JFs masses of responses. Encouragement, variety, interests, starting something and seeing where it leads. And a lot of hard work too, by the looks of it!

[meow]

Ginger, your low opinion of children's capacity for competence is highly obvious. It's a good idea you have chosen not to pursue unschooling but please stop placing your limiting judgements on other people's children. It's just dragging the thread down.

[Ginger]

I don't have a low opinion of children's competence. I am just a realist. I don't believe that unschooling will work well in practice. The wii could be a metaphor for many things. It's not about the wii. It is about children not being mature enough to completely direct their own learning. People are getting upset with me about the wii question because they can't actually answer it.

[Heaven]

And yet when asked what research you have that supports your beliefs you couldn't answer. And you also said you know no unschooling families. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but when it is an uninformed one I'm not interested. And when it also comes with insults, people generally aren't too motivated to continue answering ridiculous questions.

[Trillian]

I'm going to be upfront and say what I think you already know I'm not a fan on homeschooling or unschooling at all. However, what you do with regards to your children's education is your business. I respect your choices, even if I don't agree with them.

I do have a couple of genuine questions though. I'm not wanting a debate. I'm just honestly curious. So here goes...

One of the issues I have is that in many homeschool environments I see (particularly those which are religion based) children are 'kept from' those who are different. Even when it's not a conscious choice on the parents' part, they naturally spend the vast majority of their time with people who have the same attitudes/backgrounds as them (ie. their friends and family). Socialisation involves mixing with people who are your polar opposite, people you don't like and who don't like you, people who will antagonize you and make your life difficult and learning how to thrive in that environment. School, like life, is a huge melting pot of personalities, beliefs, values, backgrounds, attitudes, behaviours, ect. When you go there, you learn how to negotiate, and thrive in that every day. When I hear homeschoolers say, "little Joey isn't missing out on socialisation because we play with friends, or go to a homeschool co-op, etc every week", my immediate thought is that little Joey is missing out by not co-existing with people who don't like him, or who don't share his attitudes on life. Joey is being brought up in a protective social bubble. A controlled environment masquerading as educational freedom. How do you allow for this?

I'm with N2L on this. I also agree with Ginger that sometimes the choice to unschool is often driven by selfish needs of the parents. I have seen it work, I have also seen it fail terribly. I've taught a child who made the transition from unschooling (well he was apparently meant to be homeschooled, but spending all day unsupervised in the town library accessing their free internet to play video games is not schooling.) and there were HUGE gaps in his learning. Huge. He was rude, had no social skills, did not form healthy peer relationships and thought he could do whatever the hell he wanted in my class because that's what he was used to doing. He was extremely unprepared for participation in mainstream schooling and more than likely life itself.

I think at a very basic level, unschooling can be a positive environment but what would you say about parents who are woefully unprepared for life themselves who want to unschool their children? Parents are not always the best educators. I'm sorry, but they're not. I'm not saying that you are in this category JF, but some are. The parents of the boy I had in my class were not fit to be in that role. They didn't raise a child who experienced a natural love of learning, they raised a self-indulgent little turd who had no respect for anyone or anything. What I do think though Jellyfish, is that you do unschooling a disservice by not acknowledging that there can be significant problems with it and that it doesn't always work out well. And I think N2L's post raises some extremely valid points. What do you do when you don't *fit* with the other unschooling/homeschooling community around you? The unschooling/homeschooling community is relatively small so how do you make up for not fitting in with other like-minded people? Would you agree that some of these people have an agenda and it's because of a greater dissatisfaction with life/govt/society that they would rather 'check out' and live off the grid as much as possible to the detriment of their child's education? Would you also agree that unschooled children can grow up to have a very very limited education if their 'interests' were very narrow? Because wouldn't it be a violation of the very tenets of unschooling if you're directing them away from what they want to learn? Are you prepared to give them the experience of things that you don't necessarily agree with or like so they can make a fully informed decision about something and whether they want to follow that path of learning? What if their desire to learn took them down a path that you weren't entirely happy with? For example, a child displays an extreme liking for chemical reactions and their thirst for learning led them to explosives and eventually weaponry - would you be happy with that? (I do understand that this is an extreme example, but it's not implausible) Would you support it? I think has the potential to open a pandora's box that some parents may not be prepared for or would be willing to travel down. How broad are you willing to take their education? If you let them follow their interest, what happens if that interest is something you can't provide for them? You don't work so I'm assuming that you rely on a single income so how do you afford to give them the experiences that they want? There isn't always going to be an *expert* within your community to access it for free (I do accept that this sometimes happens in a mainstream education environment as well)

And don't get me wrong, I am under no illusion at all that mainstream education is perfect, because I can accept that it does have it's failings and for some children homeschooling is the best option (even if it's not to a strict curriculum), but I don't fully support or endorse unschooling because despite what the ads say, you (the generic) are not always your child's best teacher. I don't think kids have the cognitive ability to make decisions about their own education until they are much older.

[emmalee86]

I think perhaps you have just missed the point or do not properly understand the concept and rather than researching to broaden your knowledge you have formed a very strong uneducated opinion...

With regard to the Wii question I actually don't think it has any relevance and only seems to prove that you have missed the point..

Unschooling is not for everyone, obviously, but I think it has it's merits and I think that it's great that there are different options for schooling our children because not all children are the same..

[Trillian]

As for the 60 minutes story, I'm not expecting anything positive. I remember the absolute hack job they did on attachment parenting years ago where they showed an EC'ed child crapping on the floor and made a comment about this is what attachment parenting's all about. They aren't interested in quality journalism, that's why they choose topics like this because they know it's going to divide. Hell, they may as well trot out the same old bottle v boob debate.

[Heaven]

I don't think you're talking about unschooling Trillian. Even if they called it that. Sounds like laziness to me. Unschooling doesn't mean uninvolved at all. You need to be constantly involved and attentive and one step ahead. I get your point, homeschooling isn't for everyone, that doesn't mean it can't work really well. The same as school, can be good or bad.

Ugh sorry, trying to type and feed a baby, not working, lol.

[Trillian]

With regard to the Wii question I actually don't think it has any relevance and only seems to prove that you have missed the point..

Ginger explained that it was a metaphor that could apply to anything. She hasn't missed the point and it's a valid question to ask and has yet been unanswered. Just because someone doesn't know someone in person who has done something doesn't mean they are uneducated or uninformed. Just as doing that thing doesn't make a person the authority on something. I make ****ing sensational pickles and preserves. Doesn't mean I'm an authority on it

[Ginger]

And yet when asked what research you have that supports your beliefs you couldn't answer. And you also said you know no unschooling families. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but when it is an uninformed one I'm not interested. And when it also comes with insults, people generally aren't too motivated to continue answering ridiculous questions.

That's funny. I could've sworn you did a hair flip and left the thread a few pages back. Anyways, it's an opinion. My opinion. I didn't realize that opinions on bb needed to be backed up with hours of google research. I must've missed that memo.

[Ginger]

Oh and btw, I'm still waiting for answer to my wii question. People keep dismissing it because they simply cannot answer it.

[Heaven]

That's funny. I could've sworn you did a hair flip and left the thread a few pages back. Anyways, it's an opinion. My opinion. I didn't realize that opinions on bb needed to be backed up with hours of google research. I must've missed that memo.

That's what I said. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. You should try reading posts.