Conflicting Reasoning of Homebirth and Anti Vaccination

[Rouge]

Now another question stemming from Rouge's: I think it's pretty clear to me and others I think that you believe that hospital birth is a safer option, based on the value you place on medicine and drs, opposed to the value you place on the woman's needs, beliefs and feelings. So what are your trying to achieve here? I gather you don't expect to have your opinion changed, yet the responses you have received on birth choices have been some of the most articulate and well-explained I've seen on BB (and I've been around a long time, believe me). They have challenged my own thinking, and I have come away believing more than ever that women can be intelligent enough, strong enough and in tune with themselves enough to know what's best for them, more so than a dr, who only sees them for a couple of mins every few weeks, ever could.

Have these women, who have shared their own experiences willingly and openly, even made you question any of your own beliefs? Because if they haven't, then perhaps you might not ever 'get' what they're trying to say, so continuing a discussion that continually leads to impasse with you serves no more value to you, don't you think?

But even if none of your beliefs have been challenged or changed from this discussion, I hope that others reading this thread have drawn value from it, because I sure have.

Awesome This is what I was going to ask next. And I couldn't agree more with the last line. And I hope all those who have contributed to this thread, feel the same sense of pride that I do right now, because even in our differences we can come together as a community and share respectfully and without division. I call that Levelling Up

[onthefly]

But your conclusion is flawed - the assessment and calculation of risk is entirely subjective and unique to each individual.

[PumpkinZulu]

You're right, it's incredibly narrow minded.

Here's how I *know* your research isn't as extensive as you claim. Give me 3 examples of full on, super panic stations emergencies that could happen during labour, suddenly and without any prior warning that a woman's caregivers (meaning, experienced, highly trained midwife) had not foreseen or prepared for? Please, do. Because I can tell you, *most* situations that arise, a responsible caregiver will be able to predict to some degree, and manage appropriately, whether that be at home or a hospital transfer. And most situations do not just suddenly occur, they have warning signs.

I gave birth in a hospital. I planned a homebirth. When my waters broke, they were meconium stained. Not life threatening, but it was the policy to transfer (I was with a hospital based program, not because I felt safer, but because it was in its trial phase and I wanted to add a positive statistic so other women could access it also). I had a great birth, small amount of medication in the ambulance, and from then on had a natural, vaginal, physiological birth. Things like cutting the cord happened immediately without my consent, which was not necessary. Now I am pregnant again as planning a Homebirth with a private midwife. My hospital transfer was put down as a success in the trial, because it was a successful example of good Homebirth in action. But, when I arrived at the hospital, my HB midwife had not yet arrived. I had a hospital midwife who tried to ply me with drugs, and insisted I remained strapped to the bed for constant monitoring for my labour. Obviously I refused, and the shift when my HB midwife arrived was incredible. Homebirth is more than a venue, it's a philosophy, one you clearly do not grasp.

[TeniBear]

Thought the thread needed one of these

[Little Chicken]

L

You're right, it's incredibly narrow minded.

Here's how I *know* your research isn't as extensive as you claim. Give me 3 examples of full on, super panic stations emergencies that could happen during labour, suddenly and without any prior warning that a woman's caregivers (meaning, experienced, highly trained midwife) had not foreseen or prepared for? Please, do. Because I can tell you, *most* situations that arise, a responsible caregiver will be able to predict to some degree, and manage appropriately, whether that be at home or a hospital transfer. And most situations do not just suddenly occur, they have warning signs.

I gave birth in a hospital. I planned a homebirth. When my waters broke, they were meconium stained. Not life threatening, but it was the policy to transfer (I was with a hospital based program, not because I felt safer, but because it was in its trial phase and I wanted to add a positive statistic so other women could access it also). I had a great birth, small amount of medication in the ambulance, and from then on had a natural, vaginal, physiological birth. Things like cutting the cord happened immediately without my consent, which was not necessary. Now I am pregnant again as planning a Homebirth with a private midwife. My hospital transfer was put down as a success in the trial, because it was a successful example of good Homebirth in action. But, when I arrived at the hospital, my HB midwife had not yet arrived. I had a hospital midwife who tried to ply me with drugs, and insisted I remained strapped to the bed for constant monitoring for my labour. Obviously I refused, and the shift when my HB midwife arrived was incredible. Homebirth is more than a venue, it's a philosophy, one you clearly do not grasp.

Shoulder dystocia
Placental abruption
Cord prolapse

[PumpkinZulu]

LC, I'm not saying they don't exsist. I'm saying I doubt spenceee is really aware of the risks. I'm not too familiar with the specifics of placental abruption or cord prolapse aside from the basics, but I do know that there are several warning signs for shoulder dystocia. Anyway, I'm not dismissing the dangers of childbirth. I'm saying that homebirth is safe for low risk pregnancies, and not even low risk deemed by most of the medical world either.

[Rouge]

Moderator Message »
Ok please don't prove me wrong.

No flaming. No nastiness. Or I will ban you from this thread. Don't be a buzz kill. If you need to get heated do it in your own time and not in this thread.

[Maruschke]

Correct me if I am wrong (I really mean that) but I thought HB'ers recognised there are some things that go wrong even in a low risk birth, that might be treated better in a hospital, but they also believe that there are things that go wrong in a low risk hospital birth that might be better treated at home, and hence on balance, they choose to HB. That's not to say there aren't things that go wrong and badly, but their risk assessment comes down on the side of HB rather than hospital birth. It's not the case that they believe nothing goes wrong.

So yeah you can list three things but does it really matter? Not sure I am explaining myself well. The fact that placental abruption is more risky at home than at hospital, doesn't imply that on balance home is riskier than hospital (in their opinion).

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

A girlfriend of mine's first bub had shoulder dystocia - the doctor pulled him out so hard that he dislocated his little collarbone. Bub was severely bruised all over and required several chiro treatments, which no one recommended to her, she only tried it after 3 weeks of constant screaming by her bub. By that time she was so traumatised that she didn't bond with him properly, and suffered severe PND.

Her second bub was a home waterbirth. Again, shoulder dystocia. The IM was prepared for that though, and literally used just two fingers to rotate him slightly, and he came straight out. Birth was 90 mins, 10 pound bub, no stitches, no emotional trauma. Mum was out shopping the next day.

I know I don't have any experience with birth, but I already know I would not be comfortable birthing in a hospital. I have been abused by doctors, flat out lied to by doctors, and laughed at by doctors - all in normal appointments. Why would I put myself in a position to be subjected to that again? Where is the evidence that my doctor is going to listen to ME, and not just follow generalised statistics?

[spenceee]

PumpkinZulu, I dont see how giving a list of these things is going to help but here goes. 1. a prolapsed cord that cant be returned, 2. a resus situation that requires the insertion of a breathing tube or 3. signs of foetal distress (cord compression that cant be corrected by position, wild heart rate, cord around neck) that indicates to the MW a genuine need for an emergency CS. Proper management for all these situations is a hospital transfer. I really do not belive that giving you this list will change your point of view regarding me as anyone with access to google could make this list. I think it is best that we let it go for now as one or both of us is likely to get infracted based on where this is going.

Sushee/Rogue - Honestly I really don't know how I would have handled it. I guess that my first priority would be understanding why My wife wanted to make that decision, the rights of the mother outrank the father but in a strong relationship the wishes of the father/partner carry weight as while it is her body it is our baby. Secondly would be increasing the rate at which I researched HB, Thirdly would be (assuming that my position did not change as if it did then conflict solved) making sure that I was satisfied that my wife fully understood her choice, I would want her to talk to an OB as a part of this but would also talk to a midwife for my own understanding.
Again assuming that we were on opposite sides of the fence I guess that plans would go ahead to birth at home. I would then move onto finding out everything I could about minimising risk, understanding emergency response times of ambulance services, knowing which hospitals we would likely be transferred to and the wider logistics of birthing at home to make sure I was able to help if needed.

I suppose the answer would be that I would be scared but I would go along with it. reminding myself that while we read all these horror stories and medical peculiarities on the internet in the end most pregnancies are really just a "wait and catch and cuddle" affair and I would prepare for the worst but hope for the best.

@MadB - this is where your post comes in - you are right - for some the risk of intervention does outwheigh the potential need of emergent care. I hear you 100% and it is true that I am on the other side of that personal assessment. I do get you though.

Truthfully regarding my position today and whether it has changed - when I started researching some time ago when my wife first became preganant I was definitely of the mindset that HB was crazy hippie talk from one eyed uber naturalists, I recognise now that this was itself ironically a one eyed view. Today I see it as a relaxing atmosphere for the mother that offers an intimate setting with what will probably be the same outcome, probably... For me however, the peace of mind of being prepared does still outwheigh the benefits of being at home. Whether at home or hospital if it was my child that was tragically part 1/1000 then I think I would regret not being at hospital more than not being more relaxed during labour and birth but I can never truly know that as I will never be pregnant or give birth to a baby. I will always be an outsider even if I am right there in the room. I am jealous of women for that experience. But yes I think some of what you are saying is getting through.

[BellyBelly]

This birth for me is a birth with a new partner who had NO idea about homebirth and not been with me on my journey to doing what I do now. The big thing on his mind was risk, our independent midwife quickly eased his fears and his whole family love my IM. So what you may think you feel and believe now, may change when you actually experience that form of care. We love her visits, the family come along too

[PumpkinZulu]

I'm out

Marushke, I do and did in this thread already acknowledge that


Cheers.

[Inertia]

Sydney mother's epidural nightmare

This has not, and will never, occur at a home birth. The claim that hospital birth removes all the risk because medical help is at hand is disingenuous. It is simply not true. My 'medical help' was too busy with a full delivery suite for an extended period of time while I bled out. Personalised care from a dedicated homebirth midwife would have prevented me a great deal of future issues that will arise from losing 3l of blood.

The hospital system is not flawless, making the original point unsustainable.

[Arcadia]

I think inertia raises a good point. While ever we are busy talking about the location of birth we are failing to examine the key difference, which is the model of care. One on one, known care to the mother.

My birth experience was a small piece of my wonderful care provided by my midwife. She sat on my bed and rubbed my legs as I talked through fears at 20 weeks. She came for dinner and chatted with my husband about his fears about birth. She washed my legs with a warm cloth when I was too shaky to have a shower. She came day in day out to help with breastfeeding and baby care...she rang me whenever I was about to burst into tears (she is psychic).

Compare this to women in my mg whose only known care provider (the ob) missed the birth, or another woman whose husband was running up and down corridOrs yelling because his wife was unattended and she was birthing ALONE! Hospitals may have medical help within reach, but whose reach? How do women get to decide who attends them and in what capacity?

At a Homebirth the midwives are there because they have been chosen, and their role has been carefully discussed and analyzed. I trust my midwife with my life and my children's lives. She was always there when I needed her. There's no clock or shift change or overseeing ob or drugs on hand 'just in case'. Just me, my body, my baby and the people I know and love.

How can anything compare to that? And truly that should be the aim of hospitals...to deliver personalized and excellent care.

[Loveinamist]

Compare this to women in my mg whose only known care provider (the ob) missed the birth, or another woman whose husband was running up and down corridOrs yelling because his wife was unattended and she was birthing ALONE! Hospitals may have medical help within reach, but whose reach? How do women get to decide who attends them and in what capacity?

At a Homebirth the midwives are there because they have been chosen, and their role has been carefully discussed and analyzed. I trust my midwife with my life and my children's lives. She was always there when I needed her. There's no clock or shift change or overseeing ob or drugs on hand 'just in case'. Just me, my body, my baby and the people I know and love.

How can anything compare to that? And truly that should be the aim of hospitals...to deliver personalized and excellent care.

Great points! My hospital experience was a midwife who I didn't know and trust and who patronised and undermined me. That was when she was actually in the room. I was left alone for alot of my labour. I remember about 20 mins before I began pushing (so I must have been in transition) me struggling up the corridor, clinging onto the walls for support, looking for her, crying and calling out for someone to help me.
She came along, hurried me back to the room, telling me that what I had done was 'against health and safety'. As soon as I was back in the room I had a sudden gush of blood so I was strapped down with monitors because she didn't know what was happening. It turned out it was just a major contraction which fully dilated me and pushing began soon after.

Having relayed this story to other midwives they said that they would have been able to tell from observing me that I was labouring pretty quickly and there was no need for all the monitors etc. It turns out my midwife was very inexperienced and couldn't even find my cervix when she did a VE (she had to get someone else in to do it), she didn't recognise the signs of labour or transition. Hospital does not always mean competent professionals! And it certainly doesn't guarantee personlised care!

If there was a next time I would definitely have a homebirth for the reasons outlined by Arcadia!

[glenny_c]

I have LOVED this thread! Apart from one or two people who seem to have got their backs up for reasons I can't fathom?!?

I think it's amazing to have conversations like this with people who share the same mindset as you, and those who don't. I think everyone (with the exception of a couple) has been very respectful. For me, this thread hasn't "changed" my position on either topic. I still feel most comfortable in a hospital setting and I still strongly believe in vaccination for MY children!

This thread has opened my eyes though and allowed me to understand more about other's points of view. Whilst they are not the decisions I would make for me, I completely respect other's rights to choose for themselves and their families. And although I am not a HBer, You have moved me to write in support of HB to my govt members.

[HotI]

L

Shoulder dystocia
Placental abruption
Cord prolapse

My understanding is that the method to resolve Shoulder dystocia that results in the least damage to mother and baby is the Gaskin maneuvre, which was discovered and published in peer reviewed journals by a midwife.

The interesting thing with the next two is that they can happen anytime during pregnancy, or at the begining of labour when most women will still be at home wherever they have chosen to birth their baby. The scary thing is that hospital health professionals rarely discuss these with women, what to look for and what to do if you think it is happening. My homebirth midwife discussed these with my DH and I and described what to do while waiting for medical assistance. That is one of the benefits of having personalised care, information can be provided to minimise risks that occur with birth.

[BellyBelly]

Glenny_c, thats awesome

Arcadia - totally hear you on that. My midwife is so in sync with me its not funny. We think of things at the same time, she tells me to come for a walk/fresh air away from the house when she can see that I am about to burst into tears. They know you in a way no-one else ever could. Given the massive emotional upheaval you have in pregnancy, which men usually have no idea how to deal with or help you with, my midwife has been an incredible source of support. Love my man to bits, but men are fixers and most just dont do / cope well with the emotionally demanding stuff that can come up in pregnancy - and I could never expect any man to understand the massive emotional waves and crashes you have during pregnancy, which are not fun for us either. I think my partner finds it a relief that she's there for me for that, understands why and that its normal because she talks to him about it too, and gives advice on how he can help. I cant expect him to meet all my emotional needs and to address my fears. My obs never gave me a hug let alone asked how I was coping. It was a strictly professional (but friendly) relationship. This is personalised love, support, counselling, nurturing and advising all in one - while knowing that I have great medical care at the same time. A carer who has spent so much time with me and knows me, my partner, my family etc so detailed as this, surely has a massive advantage picking up when something isnt right at birth. And I have a massive advantage knowing this, and knowing and trusting her so much too.