... 567

thread: Conflicting Reasoning of Homebirth and Anti Vaccination

  1. #109
    Registered User

    Oct 2007
    Middle Victoria
    8,924

    i read this and it reminded me of this thread. The Most Scientific Birth Is Often the Least Technological Birth - Alice Dreger - Health - The Atlantic


    The Most Scientific Birth Is Often the Least Technological BirthBy Alice Dreger


    The Atlantic
    Mar 20 2012, 8:06 AM

    When I ask my medical students to describe their image of a woman who elects to birth with a midwife rather than with an obstetrician, they generally describe a woman who wears long cotton skirts, braids her hair, eats only organic vegan food, does yoga, and maybe drives a VW microbus. What they don't envision is the omnivorous, pants-wearing science geek standing before them.

    Indeed, they become downright confused when I go on to explain that there was really only one reason why my mate -- an academic internist -- and I decided to ditch our obstetrician and move to a midwife: Our midwife could be trusted to be scientific, whereas our obstetrician could not.

    Many medical students, like most American patients, confuse science and technology. They think that what it means to be a scientific doctor is to bring to bear the maximum amount of technology on any given patient. And this makes them dangerous. In fact, if you look at scientific studies of birth, you find over and over again that many technological interventions increase risk to the mother and child rather than decreasing it.

    But most birthing women don't seem to know this, even if their obstetricians do. Paradoxically, these women seem to want the same thing I wanted: a safe outcome for mother and child. But no one seems to tell them what the data indicate is the best way to get there. The friend who dares to offer half a glass of wine is seen as guilty of reckless endangerment, whereas the obstetrician offering unnecessary and risky procedures is considered heroic.

    Ethicists talk about birthing choices as if they are informed and autonomous, but I can't count how many women have said to me they "chose" pain meds during birth even though they were never told the risks.

    When I was pregnant, in 2000, and my mate and I consulted the scientific medical literature to find out how to maximize safety for me and our child, here's what we learned from the studies available: I should walk a lot during my pregnancy, and also walk around during my labor; doing so would decrease labor time and pain. During pregnancy, I should get regular check-ups of my weight, urine, blood pressure, and belly growth, but should avoid vaginal exams. I should not bother with a prenatal sonogram if my pregnancy continued to be low-risk, because doing so would be extremely unlikely to improve my or my baby's health, and could well result in further tests that increased risk to us without benefit.

    According to the best studies available, when it came time to birth at the end of my low-risk pregnancy, I should not have induction, nor an episiotomy, nor continuous monitoring of the baby's heartbeat during labor, nor pain medications, and definitely not a c-section. I should give birth in the squatting position, and I should have a doula -- a professional labor support person to talk to me throughout the birth. (Studies show that doulas are astonishingly effective at lowering risk, so good that one obstetrician has quipped that if doulas were a drug, it would be illegal not to give one to every pregnant woman.)

    In other words, if the regular low-tech tests kept indicating I was having a medically uninteresting pregnancy, and if I wanted to scientifically maximize safety, I should give birth pretty much like my great-grandmothers would have: with the attention of a couple of experienced women mostly waiting it out, while I did the work. (They called it labor for a reason.) The only real notable difference was that my midwife would intermittently use a fetal heart monitor -- just every now and then -- to make sure the baby was doing okay.

    My obstetrician and his practice had made clear that they were rather uncomfortable with this kind of "old-fashioned" birth. So we left, and engaged a midwife who was committed to being much more modern. And the birth I had was pretty much as I have described. Yes, it hurt, but my doula and midwife had prepared me mentally for that, assuring me that this kind of special pain did not have to result in fear or harm.

    We did end up with one technological intervention: because my son had meconium in his fluid (this means he'd defecated in the womb), the midwife explained to me that right after birth, the pediatricians would be scooping him up to suck out his trachea (his windpipe). The idea was to prevent pneumonia. They did this, and three months later over breakfast my husband presented me the results of a randomized control trial that had just come out: it showed that babies in this situation who only had their mouths and not their tracheas cleaned actually had lower rates of pneumonia compared to those who got the tracheal intervention. Another intervention that turned out not to be worth it.

    So why is it that, over a decade later, when the evidence still supports a low-interventionist type of pregnancy and birth management for low-risk cases, we've made virtually no inroads to making birth more scientific in the United States.

    I put that question to a few scholars who work on this issue. One of them, Libby Bogdan-Lovis of the Center for Ethics and Humanities in the Life Sciences at Michigan State University, happens also to have been my doula. (Lucky me.) Libby noted that a big part of the problem is the way birth is conceived in America -- as "dangerous, risky, and in need of control to ensure a good outcome."

    Libby pointed out that institutional strictures contribute to the problem: "Insurance companies generally cover hospital birth, not home birth, they are more inclined to compensate doctors over midwives, they compensate doctors and hospital-based midwives for doing something over doing nothing, and the health care system's risk management approach backs those who can demonstrate that they did everything possible in terms of intervention." All this in spite of the fact that, as Libby notes, "attempts to control birth are fraught with real medicalized risk and commonly lead to cascades of interventions."


    Raymond De Vries, a sociologist in the University of Michigan's Center for Bioethics and Social Science in Medicine, has compared birth in the U.S. to that in the Netherlands, where he is a visiting professor at the University of Maastricht. He finds that, in the U.S., "obstetricians are the experts and the experts have come to see birth as dangerous and frightening." De Vries suggests that the organization of maternity care in this country -- "the limited choices that American women have for bringing their baby into the world, what women are not told about dangers of intervening in birth, and the misuse of science to support the new technologies of birth" -- actually constitutes an ethical problem, although we typically do not recognize it as one. Medical ethicists "would rather look to the [comparatively rare] problems of in vitro fertilization and preimplantation genetic diagnosis than to the every day issues of how we organize birth here in the U.S.; they would rather talk about preserving women's 'choices' than to explore how those choices are bent by culture."

    So true. Ethicists love to talk about women's birthing choices as if they are informed and autonomous, but I can't count how many women have said to me that they "chose" pain medication during birth even though they were never told the risks of pain medication, never had anyone express confidence in them that they could birth without medication, and were never offered a doula to walk and talk them through the pain. What kind of "choice" is that? As Libby Bogdan-Lovis told me, "Today's average childbearing woman thinks the notion of an unmedicated birth is the equivalent of suggesting that women should eagerly embrace torture."

    If I wanted to maximize safety, I should give birth like my grandmothers would have: with the attention of a couple of experienced women mostly waiting it out, while I did the work.

    I think of all the choices I made, the one that shocked my peers most was not getting a prenatal ultrasound. But just a few years before I became pregnant, a major U.S. study -- involving over 15,000 pregnancies -- published in the New England Journal of Medicine showed that routine ultrasounds did not leave babies safer. That work was led by Bernard Ewigman, now chair of family medicine at the University of Chicago and NorthShore University Health System.

    I recently called Dr. Ewigman and asked him why so many low-risk pregnancies now involve routine ultrasounds. He suggested that it was partly emotional -- people like to "see" their babies -- and partly due to the unsubstantiated belief that knowing something is necessarily going to lead to better outcomes than not knowing. But, he agreed, routine prenatal sonograms in low-risk pregnancies (that is, pregnancies in which there have been no problems) do not appear to be supported by science, if the outcome you're seeking is reducing illness and death in mothers and children. Routine prenatal sonograms don't seem to be dangerous, but they are also not health-giving.

    Dr. Ewigman told me, "The approach you took to your pregnancy was rational and well informed. But most decision-making when it comes to medical issues involving a pregnant woman or baby are not well informed and not based on rational thinking." He added: "We're all very interested in having healthy babies and it is pretty easy to make the kind of cognitive errors that people make, and attribute to technology benefits that don't exist. At the same time, when there are problems in a pregnancy, that very same technology can be life-saving. It is easy to make the [problematic mental] leap that technology is always going to be necessary for a good outcome."

    Dr. Ewigman and I talked about how some people derive false certainty from prenatal sonograms, thinking that if the clinicians see nothing unusual, the baby will be born perfectly healthy. I explained to him that that was one reason I didn't bother; I knew from my own research on birth anomalies how often sonograms mislead. He observed that our culture has "a real fascination with technology, and we also have a strong desire to deny death. And the technological aspects of medicine really market well to that kind of culture." Whereas a low-interventionist approach to medical care -- no matter how scientific -- does not.

    I'm not against taking into account, when making birthing choices, the kinds of hard-to-measure outcomes that may matter deeply to some pregnant women. I get that there are some women who don't want a baby shower like mine, where most of the gifts consist of yellow and green baby clothes, instead of pink or blue. I get that some want to have those fuzzy pictures of the babies in their wombs. I get that some might want to abort if a sonogram were to show a major anomaly.

    And I get that some women want a particular experience of birth -- I mean, I really get that now that I have had a birth that left me feeling more powerful, more humble, more focused, and more devoted to my lover than I ever thought I could feel.

    But I wish American women were told the truth about birth -- the truth about their bodies, their abilities, and the dangers of technology. Mostly I wish all pregnant women could hear what Libby Bogdan-Lovis, my doula, told me: "Birthing a baby requires the same relinquishing of control as does sex -- abandoning oneself to the overwhelming sensation and doing so in a protective and supportive environment." If only more women knew how sexy a scientific birth can be.

  2. #110
    Registered User

    Oct 2005
    North Queensland
    2,528

    Some interesting thoughts.


    My stance on these matters, as it always has been - always will be, is each to their own.

    There is always going to be someone who either agrees or disagrees with your way of doing things. Unfortunetely in todays society, people seem to think they are entitled to an opinion on what every one else is doing when it comes to birthing and raising our children.

    If you want to home birth you're baby thats perfectly fine with me. You are entitled to that choice. Same goes with non-vaxxing.

    What bothers me is how society treat the people who have exercised their right to birth at home or non-vaxx. Society treats them as idiotic, hippies who've simply made these decision just to go against the grain. But society doen't realise is that these people are very well educated on these matters more so than many health professionals.

    As for birth rape, I think as man, birth rape isn't something you should even begin to try and imagine. You say the term is sensationalised but until you know what its like to be in labour, have a man with his fingers so deep inside your body you're literally crawling up the bed to try and escape him, you can never understand how wrong you are. Birth rape is real and sadly it happens all too often, even today.

    I could go on all day but I wont.

    I do just want to touch on the faith part. How do you have faith in your own bodies ability someone asked.

    If you dont have faith in yourself than who will? If you dont have faith in your bodies abilities than the battle is over before it has even begun.

    Birth as we know has been happening for millions of years. Its in every molecule of a womans body, passed down from generation to generation. The faith is there - you just have to be open to believing in it.

  3. #111
    Registered User

    Jul 2008
    summer street
    2,708

    Great article, thanks HotI. I think it sums up some excellent points on our culture's obsession with technology, that more is better.

    Sara, you make some awesome points, especially about bodily faith. I think the trouble comes for many when this faith is tested, I.e. They struggle with fertility, birth and breastfeeding, so how do we encourage people to maintain faith in their bodies despite these setbacks?

  4. #112
    BellyBelly Life Subscriber
    Add sushee on Facebook

    Sep 2004
    Melb - where my coolness isn't seen as wierdness
    4,361

    Great point, Arcadia. I think having conceived via IVF and therefore having had a medical team partly responsible for my pregnancy meant that I was more open to medical assistance in my pregnancy and birth (to start off with). Faith in my body had definitely eroded as a result. It wasn't until further into my pregnancy did I realise my infertility and my ability to birth were mutually exclusive. But then again, I had 3 children beforehand so had that context. I imagine had I conceived my 1st child via IVF, the circumstances of birth would have been much different. I think I would have accepted an elective c/s straight out.

  5. #113
    Registered User

    Sep 2007
    Brisbane
    5,729

    Great point, Arcadia. I think having conceived via IVF and therefore having had a medical team partly responsible for my pregnancy meant that I was more open to medical assistance in my pregnancy and birth (to start off with). Faith in my body had definitely eroded as a result. It wasn't until further into my pregnancy did I realise my infertility and my ability to birth were mutually exclusive. But then again, I had 3 children beforehand so had that context. I imagine had I conceived my 1st child via IVF, the circumstances of birth would have been much different. I think I would have accepted an elective c/s straight out.
    Yep, but it's not just infertility and miscarriages. It's also the experience of others, reading the journal articles and blogs, and realising that child birth can and does go wrong, for both mother and baby. In fact a wider view shows that all of our body systems fail us at one time or another, in a permanent way, and that none of us are immune... eventually we will all demise and faith in our body will be in vain in the end.

    So I guess for me it's not about body faith but a realistic expectation of what I can expect in labour. I can expect with about 99% confidence that all will go well and both mum and baby will walk away healthy. 1% chance of something dire happening, which I won't elaborate on. I expect about a 15% chance of an emergency c/s. But I have no "faith" (and I know that's not the right word, but I'm not mocking at all, just trying to convey the same sense we are all talking about) that I WILL be part of the 99% and not the 1%. I have no faith that I will be part of the 85% who are having vaginal births. And please don't quote me on these stats, I'm working from memory and they won't be exact, I'm just using numbers to convey how I feel.

    I got the impression, and I might be wrong , that some people have a belief that their body is strong enough to be a part of the 99% and the 85% and they believe it, by faith. Is that true? Because I don't believe that is realistic. I just have a picture of the diverse things that can happen to me during labour, and I know that I have no special ability to avoid or attract complications... and despite the best of preparations, I am going to be exposed to the risk of things not being perfect. In summary, I have no faith that I will escape the common perils of childbirth.

  6. #114
    ♥ BellyBelly's Creator ♥
    Add BellyBelly on Facebook Follow BellyBelly On Twitter

    Feb 2003
    Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, Australia
    8,982

    I know you said you dont know the figures, but what you've quoted is WHO stats - 10-15% max all things considered. So you cant expect 85% vaginal birth unless you've set yourself up for that. The caesarean section rate in Australia is an average of around 33% (1 in 3 babies surgically removed from the uterus - thats a huge stat not to mention implications and hurdles for future births), with some hospitals up to the 60-70%. Higher in private. This is what happens with going with the flow. 60-70% of vaginas are not broken, nor are women choosing to section at that rate. Its all about the care and what you're willing to accept/roll the dice with. Thats the sad state of birth in this country.
    Kelly xx

    Creator of BellyBelly.com.au, doula, writer and mother of three amazing children
    Author of Want To Be A Doula? Everything You Need To Know
    In 2015 I went Around The World + Kids!
    Forever grateful to my incredible Mod Team

  7. #115
    Registered User

    Feb 2008
    1,163

    Maybe faith in this situation is a mix of optimism and realism. Your level of faith depends on your mix of those two and is also influenced by how you developed each and how you translate the reality for yourself.

    I got the impression, and I might be wrong , that some people have a belief that their body is strong enough to be a part of the 99% and the 85% and they believe it, by faith. Is that true?
    I personally had a very strong faith in my body's ability to birth. But that came after a great deal of fear around the whole thing. For me it was information and understanding that helped me get faith. My original fear about childbirth was due to a lack of understanding, the proliferation of scary stories of birth gone wrong and the sense that other people controlled the whole thing. I didn't know how I could trust other people when I didn't understand it all. The more I discovered, the more my faith grew. Part of my discovery was of statistics like that. Just knowing that a majority of women should be able to give birth naturally and safely gives me faith.

    Because I don't believe that is realistic. I just have a picture of the diverse things that can happen to me during labour, and I know that I have no special ability to avoid or attract complications... and despite the best of preparations, I am going to be exposed to the risk of things not being perfect. In summary, I have no faith that I will escape the common perils of childbirth.
    I completely understand this. This is where blind faith gets shaky. The way I worked through this though was to look at those things that can and do go wrong and find out about them. What causes the problem, what increases the chances of things going wrong, what decreases the chance, what can be done if it does occur, what is the outcome…? All of these questions enabled me to make informed decisions and organise my birth so that I was comfortable about the perceived risks. I engaged health professionals who I believed gave me the best advice to minimise risks and were best equipped to avoid complications and the result was that I felt that my preparations meant that I did have a special ability to avoid certain complications. This is not to say that what I did was better or superior to what another person might do, it is just that I felt safe and confident in my choices and this strengthened my faith. So while I might have begun with a great deal of optimism, it is tempered with my take on the reality of the situation. In the end, I felt comfortable that I could not eliminate all risk but I had reduced it to a level I was happy with.

    So I guess for me it's not about body faith but a realistic expectation of what I can expect in labour
    This is a perfect example of how we can all come to different assumptions with similar information because for me, my faith is also based on my faith in my body and my take on what I can expect in labour. It certainly doesn't make either of us right or wrong, just different.

  8. #116
    Registered User

    Oct 2005
    North Queensland
    2,528

    Sara, you make some awesome points, especially about bodily faith. I think the trouble comes for many when this faith is tested, I.e. They struggle with fertility, birth and breastfeeding, so how do we encourage people to maintain faith in their bodies despite these setbacks?
    The only thing I can think to respond with is that the faith, although tested, must still burn strong otherwise people would just give up at the first loss, the first negative pregnancy test, the first failed embryo transfer etc. Something must keep them pushing on and if it's not faith than what else could it possibly be?

    As for everything else, experience is the key. Without it our faith in our abilities can't be tested and realized.

    For example, when I labored with DD1, I had pethidine for pain relief. Despite my determination, our breastfeeding relationship didn't develop and she was formula fed from 4 weeks. Despite this, I knew that I could and would breastfeeding my other babies. So I researched the effects of pethidine on baby's and made the decision not to use pain relief next time. I birthed DD2 drug-free and went on to breatfeed her for 13 months.

    Now had I not had faith in myself the first time around, I may never have had the opportunity to know how well I can breastfeed my babies
    Last edited by Ilithyia; April 22nd, 2012 at 07:45 PM.

  9. #117
    Registered User

    Jul 2005
    Sydney
    7,896

    That is interesting. I've never really had a home birther explain that to me before. I now understand where you are coming from.

    But, can you explain why you have faith in your body? It's not a trick question, I'm really curious. We all die, historically death rates in labour were higher for mother and baby. Diseases spread. Miscarriages occur at alarming rate. Why do we have faith in a body that eventually fails permanently with many small temporary failures in between? Having been a person who has been sick, had miscarriages, infertility, had a complicated birth, fairly extreme BF issues etc, these are all realistic reasons for me to NOT have faith in my body.

    I'm not saying you are wrong, just that some of us seem to come at this issue from a vastly different angle to others.

    I also think we come at this from a very different angle on the issue of bodily autonomy v's baby needs. My personal opinion, that I'm not going to lay on anyone else, is that my baby's needs get 100% at any cost at all to my bodily autonomy. That is, if my baby needs it at a cost that is somehow physical for me, I will pay it. I do put the baby's needs at greater importance than my bodily rights. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is impossible to have both (fulfil all of the baby's needs AND retain your bodily autonomy) but if the choice needs to be made, I know which way I am going.
    You've actually happened upon something that has been found to often differentiate home birthers. That is, that many who home birth or support home birth believe what is good for mum is good for bub. I am in this camp. I absolutely have my baby's best interests at heart, but fundamentally I believe in conception, pg, birth and my baby's early life (while it is exclusively bfing in particular) taking care of me is going to give my baby the best start to life. I believe this for most mothers. Look after the mum, she will likely be giving her baby the best.

    I also have more faith in my body and my ability to know my body than a stranger's ability to say what is happening within my body. I'm not a freebirther, I had medical assistance on hand and a hospital nearby if my body didn't perform as I expected. I hadn't cancelled out the option of a hospital birth if it was needed by preparing beforehand. Where I gave birth was ultimately dictated by how my birth progressed, not by a decision I made beforehand.

    But my preparation for birth was completely different by allowing myself the option to birth at home. That focused on me, how my body would likely work and how best to facilitate that naturally. Not on measurements, timing, medical checks, interventions available and processses dictated by policy and not my individual well being.

  10. #118
    Registered User

    Jul 2008
    summer street
    2,708

    Jennifer and jack rose have answered with exactly the points I wanted to make.

    I still think on this issue of bodily faith as part education and part trust/optimism.

    When I was pregnant I had an affirmation 'I deserve to have the birth I desire'

    Perhaps that's part of the fear too? That some of us do t feel we deserve it? Tbh I still think I fluked it at times, but only when I hear a negative story.

  11. #119
    Registered User

    Aug 2010
    Albs, WA
    971

    personally I support homebirth (though my medical complications mean I wont be having one) and vaccination.

  12. #120
    Registered User

    Sep 2007
    Brisbane
    5,729

    When I was pregnant I had an affirmation 'I deserve to have the birth I desire'.
    Sorry but I don't agree. And now I understand the faith issue even less. Many women are "deserving" and have emergency cs or other interventions for valid reasons. They weren't less deserving, it's just that birth gives us no promises. If everyone could have confidence in that affirmation, wouldn't it be proved wrong by genuine complications?

  13. #121
    Registered User

    Jan 2006
    8,369

    Um, I still believe in my body's ability to birth. I'm looking forward to Stormy's homebirth (freebirth) in a couple of years. I deserve to have a great birth experience - and I'm going to have one. TBH, I could have easily had one with Liebs, even in the hospital, had I had care providers looking after me rather than midwives and doctors.

    But did I really deserve Liebling's birth? (Anyone want to not be my friend anymore by saying yes?)

    I don't have faith. I have knowledge of my body - knowledge I had before birthing. Knowledge that I knew my body and what it can do. And it can birth - I'm a woman, I am designed to give birth!

  14. #122
    Registered User

    Jul 2008
    summer street
    2,708

    Maruschke I think you and I have a difference in semantics I meant I 'deserve' a positive birthing in the sense that I am worthy of it, and it's not just something that happens to OTHER women out there in the world, but can happen to me. Valid complications need to be worked into the kind of birth you CAN desire, so like all my discussions on bodily faith, realism, knowledge and optimism are all worked in together. I desired a home birth because that's what all indications pointed to. If I had complications, I would have to rework my plan. Yes birth offers no promises, but that shouldn't mean we can't believe and have faith that we will have the most positive experience for our own unique situation.

    Kids need me..not feeling very eloquent, but I love the way you are forcing me to unpack these ideas it's intense stuff for me.

  15. #123
    Registered User

    Mar 2009
    2,269

    I don't think there is a one size fits all approach to birth and gaining 'birth faith'.

    I personally went the complete opposite way to most and did no research, read nothing, attended 0 classes. I also only had the one scan (morphology). I 100% went with the flow because I knew if I allowed myself insight into the possibilities (no matter how small) I would focus on them, I would amplify them in my mind and I would convince myself it would be me which I don't think would have been helpful for my headspace at all. So my belief was through ignorance, I didn't allow myself to know anything beyond straight forward pregnancy and birth. I also didn't care nor want somebody there that I knew intimately (beside my DP for DD2), I was much more comfortable having a 'stranger'.

    And I had two spontaneous, drug free labours and births. No stitches, delayed clamping was done and discussed with me (something I barely even knew about before). I was not weighed, not forced into unneccesary scans, didn't get the GBS swab. I was encourage to move, use water for relief and gravity for pushing. There was no monitoring, there was the offer of VE's but never pushed. Some health practitioners are actually worth having on board and handing the reigns over to so to speak, if that is what the mother wants or needs. This was a private ob and hospital. This should be an available option.

    Maybe I just got lucky, I actually thought that after DD1 but then lightning struck twice and even though DD2 was a kilo bigger, she was just as straight forward. Maybe it was because I was fit and young. Maybe it is in my genetics. Who knows really but I don't think everyday people should have to have all the knowledge or do all the research or fight for their birth, what we need is to ensure that the system is on the same page with what leads to best outcomes for mother and baby so going with the flow or choosing to birth in a hospital setting is just as valid a option for achieving this as being a knowledgable homebirther (which I support 100%) because I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who is like this and would rather just not need to know.

  16. #124
    Registered User

    Sep 2007
    Brisbane
    5,729

    Maruschke I think you and I have a difference in semantics I meant I 'deserve' a positive birthing in the sense that I am worthy of it, and it's not just something that happens to OTHER women out there in the world, but can happen to me. Valid complications need to be worked into the kind of birth you CAN desire, so like all my discussions on bodily faith, realism, knowledge and optimism are all worked in together. I desired a home birth because that's what all indications pointed to. If I had complications, I would have to rework my plan. Yes birth offers no promises, but that shouldn't mean we can't believe and have faith that we will have the most positive experience for our own unique situation.

    Kids need me..not feeling very eloquent, but I love the way you are forcing me to unpack these ideas it's intense stuff for me.
    OK .

    Yes I think it's just a semantics issue then. Faith and desire are really hard words to use in this context.

... 567