Save Our Sleep

issy02 - OMG, for someone who has studied behvioural science you of all people should know that science is a displine that is extremely subjective. Science is a discipline that is based on not proving a theory is right, it is a discipline based on disproving all other theories. Until techniques such as SOS are definitively linked to leading to some life long crisis for a child, then they will remain subjective. Six years of studying what someone else has told you (and filtered to meet their beliefs) to study certainly does not make you an expert. Perhaps it even makes your views a little more biased then others. If behavioural science was so definitive then they would have one text book on how to raise a child and that would be accepted by all. Can you tell me the name of such a book?

MLM - You go girl! Your thoughts reflect mine perfectly.

To the poor girl who started this thread, can I share with you a piece of advice my paedetricaian gave to me. This doctor was in his mid-thirties and had 4 children under 5, so I like to think he was both book smart and had the experience to back what he was saying up. His advice went a little something like this:

"If you think you turned out OK, then do what your parents and grandparents did. There is no subsitute for first hand experience"

In my opinion, there is no right or wrong way here. Child rearing is a process of trial and error. You need to do what is right for your child and what is right for you. If you are suffering you can't possibily give your child your best. Remember, no two children have been raised the same, yet there is more than one person in the world who is normal! Read up, listen to your family and make the decision that is best for you and your baby!

I haven't read TH or Pinky, mainly because I haven't given birth yet - but I will be attending a Pinky seminar in the next month.

I bought The Science of Parenting and thought it was fantastic before I finished the first chapter. DH has a habit of reading whatever is lying around, so one day he picked this up and hasn't put it down - he's now raving about it. He's already been able to identify some of his own upbringing that has had an impact on his emotional development (my DH's Mum was very ill when DH was only 2, and spent considerable time in hospital - this has had a huge impact on my DH, who's attachment to her was obviously severely affected). Anyway, Science is a fantastic book.

I've picked up TH's book SOS and flicked through it. I don't like what it values - sleeping through, "well-behaved" children, etc...these are not my priorities for my infant. I don't doubt that SOS works for many parents, but I don't think "working" makes it "good."

I recently re-watched the BBC "Bringing up Baby" series (which showed three different parenting methods - based on the Continuum Concept, Dr Spock, and the Truby King method (controlled crying, 4-hourly feeds, etc). The mantra of the Truby King style was that it "worked." Nobody doubted that - but again, just because something works, doesn't mean it is the best thing for a baby.

Anyway, I've hijacked the thread, which I know is primarily about TH's SOS. But I think that in itself opens up the debate about other parenting theories anyway. I've given my (still open to ideas) 2 cents.

(And here's my other 2 cents):
I note that some of the parents who like SOS and have found it to work become very defensive when it is criticised. Why is that? If it works for you, great. If you have nothing to hide, then why so defensive? :hide: I don't think anyone is being judged for using SOS, but critics of it are entitled to present contrary information so that everyone can become more informed - and vice-versa.

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LOL I find it hilarious that we just can't win. We are damned if our child misbehaves and damned if they're well behaved too! :rolleyes:

I personally think tantruming can be a personality thing. My DS didn't tantrum as a 2yr old.. we BREEZED through the 2's with him! I know other 2yr olds who have been gentle parented (more gentle than us!) that were quite delightful and content. Turning 3 was another story tho ;) Boy did we discover attitude! LOL. Both my kids are parented the same (well.. as in same philosophy.. definitely no CIO so can't blame the 'good' 2yo behaviour on him not feeling heard) and we've now got a tantruming 2yr old little miss LOL. I really do think personality and luck of the draw with that plays a big part.

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Liz, I agree with you. It can depend on personality also. Perhaps that quote should say 2yr-3yr old's instead?
That quote makes perfect sense though to me. Yes it can be personality but it can ALSO be the other.

DD - I can see this argument is totally pointless with you. You have no idea what im trying to say, and have your mind set. I am no expert...certainly not, not even close, but I am well read, I have researched may many scientist, both psychological and pedagogical...and I know alot about childrens development, because its part of my profession. I have read many books on parenting, and many are the same. TH is awful. What I am saying is, theory or not, disproven in the future or not, popular right now or not, TH methods are not compatible with CURRENT understandings of child development. What are methods based on? How can she justify her methods? What has guided her? Is she well researched? If she cant even base her methods on current research...WHAT WE KNOW RIGHT NOW AND SO FAR...I wouldnt trust it, not at all.

And to the doctor who said, if you think you turned out ok, then do what your parents and grandparents did...very interesting. My parents smacked me, I turned out ok, but I know there are other ways to discipline a child, so I do otherwise. My parents smoked around me, I turned out ok, but I choose not to smoke around my children. There are loads of people in the world who 'turned out ok', who didnt have good parents, so really...it means bugger all! WHEN YOU KNOW BETTER, YOU DO BETTER!

But I do agree that parenting is trial and error, you need to do what is RIGHT for your child. And I do agree, that one should read up, just not TH!

Issy - Yes it is pointless. But it seems you have FINALLY got my point. It is CURRENT findings only. Your earlier posts with terms like "absolute conviction" and "ALL child development theories" suggested that these findings were the be all and end all of child rearing and people will still be using them in 10-20 years time just because you studied them for 6 years - a very naive view from a scientist. My point is that they WILL change and probably a lot sooner than your highly educated mind would care for. Any scientist will agree with this and yes, both my husband and I are scientists. MY husband is now over my shoulder addicted to this thread because he cannot believe some of the comments being made here. P.S. Smoking around children is NOT part of child rearing so that was a silly example to use.

MantaRay - Sorry, I missed your post earlier. I didnt encourage DS2 to sleep through from 4 weeks old. I tought him self settling right from hospital (by patting him on the tummy until he fell asleep, not allowing him to scream like most people think TH is all about) and by 4 weeks old he started sleeping through the night. I wasnt going to wake him through the night for feeds as he was gaining weight well and my instincts told me he was fine. So, to the new Mum's out there, if your bubs do this, please do not stress over it. It does NOT mean that there is something wrong with your baby unless they are also listless during the day or they are not gaining weight.

Anyway, what I probably should have pointed out earlier is that I only follow TH's methods on sleeptime routine. I have my own routine that I follow through the day, I dont allow my kids to scream if they hungry just because it isnt meal time, I dont wake them if they sleep past 6.45am etc etc etc. In other words, there are a lot of TH methods which either didnt work for us or I wasnt willing to try so we only use the one method and that is the only method I recommend to people. My children also come into our bed with us in the morning (my favourite time of day) and they get lots of playtime with us and cuddles. I'm also a full-time stay at home Mum so I get lots of kisses and cuddles during the day (while most Mum's go to work) to make up for the ones I'm so selfishly depriving my children of at night.

Anyway, it is Sunday, it is a family day and I'm going to spend it with my kids and husband......

FWIW I have read SOS and gleaned a few titbits of useful info. I also discarded a lot of what she said. I think we all do this as we read.

I think parenting books are inherently flawed because they seem to suggest parenting can be 'taught' (maybe not all parenting books are like this, but the concept bothers me).

Babies do not need to be 'fixed'. Babies do not need a routine and they do not have sleep problems.

In our society though (which is not set up for attachment parenting) many parents need a solution, many parents need a routine and many parents have sleep problems (i.e. not enough!)

The issue is actually the way we as a community and society view babies - which is not really as an individual with specific needs and desires, but rather as a collective identity 'baby' which can be trained and taught to fit into a mold of a 'good baby' (which in turn suggests we are 'good parents'). ETA: It also means there is little room for the baby who is colicky, unsettled and needs a lot of attention, and little support for the mums who have to suffer through this.

I don't know how we can change this, but in the meantime I think we need to support all mums and bubs, because we're all just trying our best.

ABSOLUTE CONVICTION - about what I know, right now, current research, all child development theories...RIGHT NOW, I never said in 10-20 years it will still be the same, you made that up to suit yourself! I will not play semantics with you!
Dont try to convince me you are doing a good job, have made good choices, I dont really care, perhaps you are so defensive because you are not sure!

Time to come in and remind our members that you are in a parenting routine forum, not the gentle parenting one. If you feel passionately for one way of parenting, perhaps it is important that you post in that area. We would not allow people to come into the gentle parenting forum and suggest CIO. Any further personal attacks or jibes will be edited out by moderators without notice.

For me it's simple. I'd rather a baby who wakes at night (which is totally normal and natural) then one who has a ridgid routine enforced on them which is contrary to every mothering instinct I have.

You would have to cut off my arms and legs before I'd ignore the crys of my child. I do not see sleeping through as an acomplishmemt if it has been achieved by force.

They are only little for such a short period. They are going to have a life ruled by the clock, let them just be babies for now.

From reading these posts I can see a couple of things

This is also a lot about personality clash I think. There are those who seem to be going with what works for baby (parent adapt to child needs), and those who seem to want a baby that works for them (ie. child adapt to parent needs) and the routines are about how to achieve these goals.

TH is all about how to get the baby to adapt to the parent's way- MINIMAL inconvenience, so as the parents can get back to their own thing (can be seen as selfish)

Take one mother from my MG. A very strong, determined woman, saw her goals followed through, a very inspiring, Just Do It person. Inconvenience was a hurdle to be jumped. So when she had her baby and it wasn't sleeping and she was up every 2 hours, she was at her wits end as most of us are! She decided she would CIO and she did, and she was so chuffed with her accomplishment, that she came to MG with baby in pram, showed us all how it worked. X time rolls around, pop baby into sleeping quarters, no distractions so she put him in the corner, left him and he was quiet...he went to sleep! no fuss no crying...

She was thankful she found a way...and the rest of us were in awe...as our dry, stinging, red-held up with matchsticks- eyeballs dropped out of our heads.

At least I was until the next occasion. She changed his nappy on the blanket on the floor as we all did then, and let him be for a minute. the rest of the babies were also on the floor, including mine. I looked over at friend's baby and something in his eyes caught mine. There was a slightly vacant expression in them. As the other babies oohed and ahhed and looked around and responded to their mum's voices, this baby didn't. In an instant, I felt so shattered by his expression. To me, (and yes this is only what I speculate as i'm not the baby whisperer) this little boy looked like he just "switched off"....stopped interacting.

I never heard of Dr. Margot Sunderland but I can imagine this is what she meant when Shanti said "Dr Margot Sunderland (a well known child psychologist)..... "the too-good child who does not have tantrums may have learned early on that expressing big feelings elicits a frightening parental response, and that the price of parental love is total compliance."


Would love to post more but don't have the time atm. will be back.

TH methods have worked, i.e. getting children to sleep through. But it only works through reinforcenment and unfortunately, that means that the child has learnt that mum wont come when I call, so why bother? Often this leads to clingy children, and this only shows a insecure attachment - they dont trust their mother, not sure when she'll come back, or when she'll respond.

Babyq - that is a very sad story. A person I know, who described her baby as the perfect Tizzie baby...sleeping through the night and whenever put to bed...showed signs of an insecure attachment, screaming when mother was out of sight, and Inconsolable until she returned. She said she was just a mummy's girl, but I saw something very different. Sometimes it is due to temperament, but often its reinforced.

Thats all from me, ive said what I need, and im not interested in personal attacks, which I believe is what is happening, myself included. I feel so strongly about this topic that I fear my arguments are loosing tact, I dont like that, and im sorry.

Over and out!

issy

Baby Q, that's heartbreaking.
And yes, Dr Margot Sunderland wrote the Science of Parenting and she has a lot to say in there about the effect of CIO on babies - much as you have described.

To be fair though - I think a lot of people who are saying SOS worked for them didn't necessarily leave their babies to CIO? just took some of the other bits & pieces.

But I guess the issue is with the fact that some parents might read SOS & as a result leave their babies to CIO, which in turn creates this detachment - very sad if you are a first time mum trying to do your best.

We used the CIO method with DD1.
i was a young mum, exhausted and had pnd and did what everyone was telling me to do..just let her cry.
i beleive that as a result of using this method DD1 is an unaffectionate child.
Cuddles make her uncomfortable and she'll only stand it for a second, even over night if she wakes up because she's unwell, had a bad dream or for whatever reason, she'd much preffer a glass of milk over a cuddle, i've tried comforting her in bed and she just constantly tells me to go back into my own bed and that she doesnt want cuddles.
Yes its possibly that this is just how she is but i dont beleive it.

With DD2, i've again been told to let her just cry, but i refuse to do it. Granted there have been a few times that ive been so frustrated that ive had to leave her screaming and walk away for 5 minutes to regroup, sometimes she fell asleep, sometimes she didnt.
I wouldnt necessarily call myself a gentle parenter, i do take snippits from gentle parenting and we're definetly more directed that way, but i do what my heart and head tell me to do.

DD2 is 6 months old and sleeps from 8-5 just about everynight, probably 3-4 nights a week she'll want a feed overnight, and thats totally ok.
So the comments about gentle parenters not having a proper nights sleep in years is totally false, and even if some parents are in this situation so be it, they CHOSE to gentle parent and this is a conciquence(sp?) of it. some ppl CHOOSE to use the SOS method and thats fine too.

Jen u said that SOS helped u pick up on DD's tired cues, u know that a sleep clinic run by the MCHN also teaches u these things.

As soon as i see DD2 giving sleep cues i feed her and put her to bed, sometimes she's still awake, sometimes she's asleep. if she's awake probably 6 times out of 10 she'll put herself to sleep, sometimes i have to go back into her room and pick her up and either just cuddle her or offer her boobie again till she calms down or falls asleep and then we try again, occasionally i'll have to do this 3-4 times before she'll actually go down, but thats ok because in the end she's putting herself to sleep even though im a gentle parenter, and i think thats pretty good for only 6 months old.In other words, u can get ur baby to self settle and sleep through the night by gentle parenting!

We all know that babies do very well on routine, gentle parenting, sos or any other similar method, it doesnt matter, routine is the one thing they all have in common.

i'm sorry some of u that use the SOS method have been upset by comments made people who dont use this method, but if u google bellybelly, it says its a gentle parenting forum so a majority of parents in her arent going to like this method and will disagree with it. and if thats not something you're happy about then maybe its time to leave BB and find a parenting forum who is a little bit more accepting of this method

I own this book, and I have used some of the methods with DD (although not all) She started sleping through at about 6 months. She is a now a very good sleeper, self settles happily and wakes up happily.
The book never suggests to leave a distressed baby crying or to leave them alone to CIO.

On the Flip side...............

My sister had severe PND. She was hospitalised for near 2 months. She had this book, and became very distressed when her baby did not "conform" to what she "should" be doing. I am not totally blaming the book, but it was THIS particular book that she was trying to follow. (although there were many other factors contributing to her PND, this book did not help her at all)

The thing is that babies have their own personalities and make their own choices from birth.

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I own this book, and I have used some of the methods with DD (although not all) She started sleping through at about 6 months. She is a now a very good sleeper, self settles happily and wakes up happily.
The book never suggests to leave a distressed baby crying or to leave them alone to CIO.

On the Flip side...............

My sister had severe PND. She was hospitalised for near 2 months. She had this book, and became very distressed when her baby did not "conform" to what she "should" be doing. I am not totally blaming the book, but it was THIS particular book that she was trying to follow. (although there were many other factors contributing to her PND, this book did not help her at all)

The thing is that babies have their own personalities and make their own choices from birth.

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i agree, i had severe PNd and was in hospital for about a month, i was distraught cause DD didnt fit the routine, it wasnt until a few weeks ago that babies dont read the books we get (lol) and they make thier own choices. just like us adults, some wake at nite, some want day sleeps, some dont...

also, no she doesnt technically call it CIO but she says to 'put up with it as long as you can stand it', for me that was 30 seconds, some parents could go outside for an hour to 'put up with it'...i find that disturbing... i guess im not a gentle parenter (DD sleeps in her own room, is FF, self settles most of the time and i dont rock/pat) but i could never leave DD to cry for longer than 5 mins to gather my own sanity back

also this quote from the book disturbs me:

"if you repsonded every time your baby protested, he would soon learn to protest whenever he wanted your attention. ...its not fair on a baby to be taught that someone will repsond to every protest because as your baby grows up, other people wont like this behavior."

um how is that not fair on the baby?? sounds more like, not fair on the people around that a baby knows how to voice when it need something...

I was not going to post any further, as I have already stated,I dont feel the need to justify myself, Ds is a very happy, affectionate, well adjusted engaging little kid.

I am pretty sure there are no vacant stares here.:D

BUT to anyone who takes exception to SOS or any non gentle method of self settling, YOU DO REALISE THAT MY BABY DOESNT CRY HIMSELF TO SLEEP EVERYTIME I PUT HIM IN BED DONT YOU?
The first sleep, on the first day, it was 20 mins, by day 2 I put him in his cot and didnt hear a peep.
Far out people, does anyone of you seriously want to tell me that your kid has never cried for 20 mins for one reason or another?

I guess I lucky enough that I didnt treat the book like it was some kind of gospel that I had to follow to the letter. I used my judgement and took the bits and pieces that worked for us and went with them.
So when people post about what I think of the book, I can honestly reply "I read it, I used parts of it, and they worked for us"

Skybie, how lovely and gentle of you to suggest that because of my differing opinion I should perhaps find a different forum. Maybe you should consider posting your opinions on gentle parenting in the gentle parenting section of this forum, not the routines and programs section ;)

MLM i never said u should go to different forum because u have a different opinion, i think its great that ppl have different opinions the world would be a boring place if we didnt. i said that if the comments are upsetting u then maybe u should think about it...please dont twist my words and make out that i'm being nasty because im not.

like i said i've used two very different kind of methods, and what i was describing was our ROUTINE which is what this section is for.

i never directed my post to anyone, besides jen but that was a simple, im not sure if u knew direction. i really dont know why u feel the need to single me out

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i feel it detrimental to a mothers health to read that what shes doing is evil and psychologically damaging. i think the wording of some posts makes them come across in a different manner to how they are meant.
i will continue to do things my way, with a little of this and a little of that, and a lot of whatever works for my dd, regardless of anyones opinion. i do hope others wont change what works for them just because a few people told them its evil

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This comes up a lot. I understand what you're saying but I have a different view. As an (extreme) example: What if a mother beats her child every time it does something wrong. She thinks she's doing what works best for her bc the result is she has a child who is always compliant and doesn't throw tantrums. Clearly this is not the best situation for a child. Should we just say 'each to their own' and not disagree, not tell her there is a better way, not tell her that science has proven this is detrimental to her child, in order to spare her feelings???? I don't think so personally.

Again, an extreme example, I of course don't think anyone is severely damaging their child in this way!!!! But I do not agree with CC at all and I do believe that research suggests it can be damaging to children. I'm not willing to take that chance.

I honestly think that all of you who don't agree with SOS, TH, CIO etc etc should probably butt out of this thread now. I can't believe how aggressive and self-righteous this is getting. Some posters are verging on accusing others of child abuse.

If someone was posting in the gentle parenting forum about constant night waking, say, and someone responded by recommending this book everyone would be jumping down their throat.

A bit of mutual respect wouldn't go astray. We are all mothers doing what we believe is best for our children.

So much for the sisterhood. Women are each others' worst enemy.

Well said Curly :D



And that concludes my participation in this discussion.
:D

It's sad that we have to even have discussions on routines for babies. If we all lived in a village and saw parenting first hand we could see what works and what doesn't. I think these discussions in an online environment are hard because the variables for each persons situation are exponential. We don't really know each other, so I think perhaps we should try not to assume anything about why someone chooses one method over another.

Women need each other...well I need you all, so please let's keep supporting each other...despite our differences!

anna, mlm and curly - exactly, women should support each other, and support in a positive way,. its hard enough raising kids without fighting with other mothers.

heaven, as i said in earlier posts, there are ways to positively support mothers by suggesting alternative methods that may make them want to consider them, then there are ways to suggest other methods that make the parent decide not to even think about them due to the way they were suggested. someone beating their child is hardly the same thing, and even then if you want to tell someone what they are doing is wrong, you have to broach the subject tactfully, and on a level that person can understand and feel comfortable with, not making them feel attacked and told what to do.

skybie my CHN is actually a lc, which from what i hear is rare in the public system in a rural area, there are none that i could find within an hour drive as i live in the sticks, because of this she focuses mainly on bf support and runs a weekly bf group. i attempted to discuss sleep issues, settling, cues, how much etc with her and she told me bf group (which is the only time she sees people other than the initial home visit) is not the place and if i need help i have to get a referral to a sleep clinic in sydney, so for me this was an absolute last resort.
i agree that perhaps bb is not the place for everyone, i have thought that for myself for a couple of weeks now, but i have made some terrific friends on here, i get a lot out of bb and i hope that my baby buddies contributions are positive ones to my fellow buddies, so im not sure that i want to give up the people i have met and our thread.
when i googled pregnancy when ttc, bb came up, the info section on google never mentioned gentle parenting once, and i never read any of that stuff till recently, as i stuck to the section that matched my situation, ttc then pregnancy and now baby, i never read ahead, so until recently never knew this about bb.

my baby has never been forced to sleep through, i have never once failed to rise for a night cry, i have never once made her wait for a feed, yet since the very first night on sos she has slept through that was 6 weeks of age. she has not one single night woken and cried, she gains generous amounts of weight, and is rarely awake in the morning when i go in, so and i dont mean to sound rude, it is hard to emote in writing, but does this make my baby abnormal? will she be damaged and detached because she sleeps through?

there are no vacant stares or weird behaviour here either.

someone asked why do people who have read sos go on to read other books, i just wanted to know what all the fuss was about gentle parenting. honestly i had not heard the term till a few weeks ago when i looked around bb.
after doing a bit of looking around i found i had tried/failed some of these tactics, and still use others that work for me.

so if you arent a gentle parent as you use some of the sos tactics for sleep times etc, yet you dont stick to sos, and do use some of the gentle parenting tactics such as feed to sleep, no cc etc, then where does that leave you? where do you fit in? where can you freely post without breaking bb rules, without offending anyone or feeling like you are being told your harming your baby?

Just thought I'd clarify that absolutely no-one should feel unwelcome on BB just because they do not 100% gentle parent. We definitely advocate parenting styles that fall under the 'gentle' or 'natural' umbrella, but absolutely everyone is welcome, to share how they parent and to learn how others parent.

I know that many people are concerned about new parents who might read a book and apply all of its concepts without regard to their own instincts and common sense (and I am aware that some people do that). I imagine this could be potentially problematic with many books. I'm also aware that many people read all sorts of parenting books and pick and choose what works for them. I haven't read Save Our Sleep so can't personally address the theories, but I wonder if gentle questioning about what people find helpful about the book and how much they subscribe to it, wouldn't be more beneficial than arguing over the book. xo

Jen, please don't start doubting yourself!!! I too went through a stage of sleep training my dd and it did work for us for a while, so I know where you're coming from. I remember feeling so out on a limb because I loved all the other attachment parent or gentle parent ideas but I just couldn't handle the lack of sleep. I was headed for pnd.

It's hard when you feel like no one 'gets' your unique circumstance, so that's why I keep posting that we all are just trying our best. :hug:

After much reading, thinking, talking and more rest I did a massive 180 and am now a full time co-sleeping all night feeding attachment style parent. But I will never forget the journey to this point. We all struggle on the best we can, but bb is great for opening your eyes to other possibities if you want them. Whatever works! There is no right and wrong way. I would prefer we gave mums more help and support rather than 'fix' the baby, but that's the point I reached for myself.

:grouphug:

Double post... iPhone is difficult to reply with!!

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i just wanted to know what all the fuss was about gentle parenting. honestly i had not heard the term till a few weeks ago when i looked around bb.
after doing a bit of looking around i found i had tried/failed some of these tactics, and still use others that work for me.

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What's all the fuss about Gentle Parenting you ask? I wouldn't call it "fuss" as such... it's actually an effective way of raising babies and is also quite often called "attachment parenting" and also "responsive parenting". It's an instinctual way of raising babies to meet all their needs 24/7. It's about keeping a close bond with your baby through co-sleeping, breastfeeding, baby wearing etc those sort of things.... of course, just because a parent doesn't do all those things doesn't mean they aren't 'gentle' parenting or attachment parenting. But sticking along those general lines.....not leaving babies to CIO or CC etc....

Here is an extract from Dr Sears website - interesting to read......
"Attachment parenting is not a new style of parenting. Attachment parenting is one of the oldest ways of caring for babies. In fact, it's the way that parents for centuries have taken care of babies, until childcare advisors came on the scene and led parents to follow books instead of their babies. Picture your family on a deserted island and you've just delivered a baby. There are no books, advisors, or in-laws around to shower you with child baby- tending advice. The baby B's of attachment parenting would come naturally to you as they have other cultures who have centuries more child-rearing experience and tradition than all of us have. "

My journey has been similar to Anna's in terms of finding what worked for us at different times with DD but then reaching a point where you go "you know what? THIS, what we are doing is working just fine, why try and fix something that aint broken???" and going with the flow.
I too would like to point out I think we all do a wonderful job as Mum's and parents. It sure is the most challenging (yet rewarding!!!) thing we could ever do and its a huge responsibility raising these little precious people!!! No matter what our choices are as parents, we do need to support each other at the end of the day.

Love your work Shanti! :hug:

I'm not implying anything to anyone in this thread but just thought I'd put a note in since it came up a couple of times since my last post, but my friend didn't notice her ds had a blank stare either.

Ok, I know it's off-topic, but I just have to add this

Every parent will parent differently because our children and circumstances are different. I think we can all understand and respect this.
Every parent makes choices with their chilldren's best interests at heart. I think we can also all understand and respect this.
There are many variables that can affect a child's development, only some of them relate to parenting (i.e. we can't take the credit or blame for everything). And, it's really impossible to point to one aspect of parenting as the cause for anything in particular.

I bought SOS while pregnant. I knew before the end of the first chapter that it definitely wasn't for us. One of my close friends has followed SOS religiously since her DD was 3 weeks old and swears by it. SOS, in her opinion, is her saviour. I don't agree with the routine but I don't judge her for using it. It works for both her and her DD and both are happy, lovely human beings. Her baby sleeps really well, but doesn't 'sleep through'. It means things are predictable for her but also VERY restricting. She is often house bound.

We choose to use gentle parenting techniques - mostly. My DD struggles to have naps in her cot during the day but she sleeps brilliantly on the go - so in the car, the pram or her favourite spot, in her sling attched to me. We don't really have a routine during the day, I just look for tired and hunger signs. It works for us.

We have a very successful breastfeeding relationship after 8 weeks of hell in the beginning. My DD has ALWAYS demand fed. We don't co-sleep. DD went into her cot in her room at 10 weeks. She slept through three nights running at 9 weeks then consistently from 10 weeks. Besides a few night feeds during wonder weeks and a couple of unsettled nights due to moving house recently, she has slept through since 10 weeks of age, anywhere between 10 and 12 hours straight.

We did not train our DD to fo this. We don't 'not hear' her at night (as I've been accused of in the past) as the Angel Care monitor is always on - I couldn't sleep without it! On the few occassions DD has woken during the night, I feed her. My boobs are always there for her :). DD is rocked to sleep every night and for day sleeps, she doesn't self settle.

I guess I'm trying to say that babies are individuals, just like adults. They want to eat when they are hungry, they want a drink when they are thirsty and like to sleep when tired. Some need more food/drinks/sleeps than others. They are all individuals.

So whether you opt for routine or gentle parenting I think the most important thing to remember is we are all raising our children the way we think is best for our families and at the end of the day, the little individuals we are raising will often dictacte the way they are raised.

I hope that makes sense!

Going back to TH for a second.. did anyone happen to see her on the weekend at the Melb baby show?
I haven't read SOS, have only heard snippets of what it's about. But, I was completely put off by her presentation yesterday. She came across as cold, condescending and very very rigid in the way things "need" to be done. I felt like I was being told off by the principal since pretty much everything she said was not how we do things here! lol

Honestly, each to their own but it doesn't sit right with me. Everyone just needs to learn to respect others choices when it comes to parenting. My DS doesn't sleep through (but is getting there slowly) and I am always told he should be , just let him cry and he'll realise that's what he's supposed to do. I recently lost a friend over this very debate, because I didn't agree with what she was telling me to do. She was attacking my way of doing things, telling me I was wrong and should be letting him CIO so I could get some sleep. When I said that I didn't agree with it, she took that as me attacking her parenting and hasn't spoken to me since. It's sad. Healthy discussion of differing parenting styles is great, but there's no real need for the attacks. I honestly don't get it, that we can't be more supportive of each other (and agree to disagree nicely!) because this parenting caper is a hard gig!

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She came across as cold, condescending and very very rigid in the way things "need" to be done. I felt like I was being told off by the principal

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I thought the same when I saw her on the Today show (when SOS was released I think, so a few years ago now) where she is very "You MUST do this" "Your baby WILL sleep through if you FOLLOW the routine" so perhaps I don't have the most objective opinion of her. That and the "new member signing up to show support" testimonials we used to get. I'm surprised there hasn't been any offering their opinions in this thread so far :shhh:

Dollyroux I guess that from face value it gives the impression that if you follow the routine to a T then you will have success, but so many don't actually follow it that closely from what I've read about the traps (not just on BB BTW) so I'm reading lots of praise for a routine that's not really being followed does that make sense.

I'm glad that what you took from it worked for you :)

I think Raven's hit on the key issue for me. I think I'm okay with books that say 'here is how we suggest you parent, take and leave what works for you and your child'. I have received some really useful parenting tips that have shaped my parenting - from books I would not recommend to anyone else!!

I am wary of a 'one size fits all babies' approach. I don't mind the idea of principles that are true for everyone (for example, that children need to learn boundaries, that babies and parents need sleep), but I think that those principles should be taught in a method that best works for individual children.

So from my experience I'd be reluctant to say that any book is completely useless. Probably the good tip I like in a 'bad' book is also mentioned in a better book where it is complemented by many more good tips. :D I just don't like the idea of one parenting book being the 'bible'. I already have a bible. :lol:

I bought SOS and Gina Ford's Contented Baby Book (similar philosophies) when I was pregnant with my second child as I had a 9 year gap between my 2nd and 1st babies and I felt like I needed help to get back into the swing of things. I knew that i wanted to be better prepared and these books seemed to promise that if I followed the routines everything would be perfect.

Baby arrived and in the first few weeks I didn't follow any routine... instinctually it felt "right" to establish trust with my baby by meeting all his needs as lovingly as possible as each need arose. So I BF on demand, co-slept and wore him alot.

After about a month I picked up the books and tried to follow the routines... but so little of it fitted into what we were doing. I felt that if I followed the routines my BFing success could be threatened. I did loosely adhere to the sleep/nap/tummy time schedule but I refused to wake my baby regardless of when he had drifted off... that just didn't make sense to me... who would wake a sleeping baby after only 15 minutes to fit into a routine???

So the books eventually gathered dust until I discovered BB. Through BB I discovered Pinky McKay's books and The Science Of Parenting. These books became my trusted reference books if anything started getting tricky.

I think the whole thing gets back to TRUST. You can have a baby that fits in with your life-style instead of visa versa but maybe the price is their trust? I know that my mother is a big advocate of children learning to fit in with the needs and requirements of the parent. She tries to drill this into me every phone call. I have never had the heart to tell her that the relationship i have with my children is closer that the one we had as mother and child. Maybe because I learnt early to silence my protests :dunno:

I think it's ok to read any book about parenting. All information serves a purpose even if to only confirm how you don't want to do things. Once you make up your own mind though it's also better to let other people draw their own conclusions as well... more respectful. I recommend books but I don't say "You MUST read this"... instead I say "I found this really helpful/unhelpful". I believe that a good parenting guide will always remind the parent to trust their instincts. Humans are not machines... there is so much that constitutes a relationship between mother and child that cannot be put into words.

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I thought the same when I saw her on the Today show (when SOS was released I think, so a few years ago now) where she is very "You MUST do this" "Your baby WILL sleep through if you FOLLOW the routine" ...

Dollyroux I guess that from face value it gives the impression that if you follow the routine to a T then you will have success

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Someone I know used SOS. She became really frustrated and depressed when it wouldn't work. When her child still wasn't sleeping through at 6 months, she left her to cry for 40-50 mins at a time.

Now I haven't read the book cover to cover (tossed it aside when I got to the part about children crying until they vomit), but I'm pretty sure that it doesn't advocate leaving your baby to cry for this long (? correct me if wrong), but the point I wanted to make is that because the book had convinced her that babies *can* and *should* sleep through with the routine, she was divorced from her instinct to try anything other than forcing her baby to conform to expectations. She took this book as the bible (which of course is silly, and exactly what everyone is saying shouldn't be done with any one book, but, at the time she was without much support, information or parenting education). I'm sure most mums would read TH with a critical eye and listen to cries with a critical ear, but here's at least one case where the advice has been "dangerous".

This child, now 3, has turned out emotionally withdrawn. She rarely smiles, or seeks out attention orcompany. She never laughs. She dislikes physical affection and wears a frown most of the time. It could be undiagnosed autism (however, communication motor skills, etc are all fine), but I'm pretty convinced that this is a perfect example of emotional shutdown as a result of CIO. :(

I am a HUGE fan of SOS being a first mother, it was extremely helpful. I found my son naturally fell into her sleeping patterns/ routines and slept through the night (12 hours) at 12 weeks old. My beautiful son LOVES his bed and we have no sleep issues at all. I highly recommend this book to anyone. At 16 months he still follows it perfectly. He still sleeps 12/13 hours a night and sleeps between 2 and 3 hours during the day and its all because of S.O.S.
So please don't be so hard on the book, it saved me from being sleep deprived.

Of course it worked for you Addison - as you say, your son fell naturally into the sleeping routines.....and it's highly likely he would have done so anyway. The problem is with forcing a child into this routine and leaving them to cry for such long periods.
I'd be more inclined to believe your little fella was going to be an awesome sleeper from the start (as lots of them are), after 3 kids with 3 different sleeping patterns I can't believe a book can take all the credit!

I agree with you Lulu. One of mine was sleeping through by 6 weeks (but started waking in the night again at 6 months), and the other one needed at least one feed in the night until 12 months, but has always been a champion sleeper day and night. At 3 1/2 he still sleeps for 4 hours or more many days. All babies are different so some will fit into the routines in prescriptive books, but many won't. We have never had any trouble getting either of down for the night. All by following their own patterns and our instincts.

I have read all the baby books around and some are definitely better than others. However I don't think any of them are meant to followed entirely - instead they work best when you take the bits from each that make sense and seem to work for you and combine that with your own values and instincts, and the baby's natural patterns.

Just popping in to say "Welcome" to Addison :) hope to see you more around the forums. As a first time Mum, there's lots of information that could be useful to you in our articles section.... as well as the wonderful insights that can be gained from interacting with the other Mums and Dads on this forum.