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whilst I am by no means a fan of Tizzy's recommendations, I think the above statement is alluding to the fact that the use of dummies often causes breastfeeding problems, and lack of breastfeeding contributes to illness and sids in babies. So the decrease in risk by using one could be negated by the risk of not breastfeeding, ifswim.:
I never said that you had to follow it to a T, but ponder at which point is what you are doing no longer like the book. You can have a pav with passionfruit or with berries, personal choice, but you are still having a pav. If you change the recipe so much that you serve me up meatloaf claiming it to be a pav, then I am not going to want your pav recipe. That is just how I see what is happening with a lot of the mums I have come across that use SOS.:
Now with Pinky, it is not about following her advice to a T, she is about following instincts, being confident in choices and most of all taking time. She touts no cures for all the various things that a baby could have. Her books are not about routine, there are a lot of tips and advice to take what works for you.
traveller - i see your point, but not sure if that was what she was trying to say at all. TH is not particularly breastfeeding friendly, her advice is terrible on this and she shows no real understanding about how breastfeeding works and the joy and health benefits of doing so. My mother is a midwife and is currently reading this book, making notes as she goes and I can tell you she is horrified at some of the things she has written.
I also dont think she was intending to say that preventing SIDS is not important, I simply think her book is poorly written and researched, is irresponsible and to be perfectly honest, DANGEROUS!
I don't like experts with regimes that demand rigid enforcement, with dire warnings about what will happen if you give in to your child. They set up parents and children as diametrically opposed forces - the parents must exert their will over child and quash opposition. Instead of a little human being needing nuturing to become an adult one day, children are seen as problems to be solved and the regimes are presented as a 'fix'.
These experts start from an assumption that parents are doing the wrong thing. When they say "you must not..." in relation to things that are natural parent behaviours - like rocking or feeding your baby to sleep, for instance - they tell parents to distrust their natural instincts and stop listening to their child.
I think if you listen to your instincts, know your child and respond to them then I think it's fine to pick and choose hints and tactics from wherever you may find them. But for a vulnerable new parent struggling with sleep deprivation and probably wondering if they're doing the right thing, it's dangerous to hold up a strict regime as a 'fix'. This tells the parent that their child is a problem to be solved and that their instincts are not to be trusted.
And, they must strictly adhere to this regime or it won't work; reinforcing these messages, further undermining their trust in themselves and, i think very cleverly, giving the authors a ready-made 'out' if it doesn't work. Because I think a lot of these regimes are very unrealistic for parents and children alike, making it very difficult to follow them to the letter.
The odd parent may find it works if they follow it to the letter. Many other parents may find things improve if they take parts of the program and adapt them for themselves.
Dollyroux, I see your point, but I guess what worries me is when parents hold up a particular expert as some sort of saviour, when the truth is, as you say, "you found them really useful". Likewise, I've gleaned useful advice from pinky, pantely and sears, but I don't follow any of their stuff strictly (though I think it bears mentioning that none advocate a strict regime or routine like TH et al, or at least not that I'm aware of).
I'm biased of course because I just don't like the central message that TH and others of her ilk deliver to parents; I prefer the Sears of this world, with his 2 golden rules for parents:
1 - Know your child
2 - Make your child feel good
well said marcellus! Dont read books and follow instructions, read your baby and follow your insticts!
So why can't you do this for Tizzie?:
Just thought I'd add, I have no affiliation with Tizzie what so ever, I have just found that the routines have worked awesome for us, and we have had very few sleep issues.
As for her being dangerous...once again I think this is unhelpful fear mongering and is very unsupportive of other peoples parenting choices.
Some aspects of attachment parenting would not work for me, and I think some are out and out ridiculous but I would never ever say that to someone because I believe parenting is tough enough without other parents abusing parents choices - which is a lot of what this thread is doing.
Yes, but SHE thinks she is the messiah!! That's what ****s most of us who dont like her draconian methods. What she does isn't raising children, it is raising emotionally detatched shells who look a little bit like children. And do you know what is really disturbing? The fact that she is reprinting her book in CHINESE MANDARIN!!!!! WTF does she even think she is doing? Typically the Chinese are attachment parents, although I imagine that there is less and less of that now than what there used to be. That kind of stunt proves to me that the TH propaganda machine is just as evil as Nestle.:
What she suggests isn't natural. How would you like to be told by someone "OK, it's time to eat/sleep/**** now"? You wouldn't.
If I were going to the baby show I would ask her how the heck does SHE sleep at night.
ETA - I don't have anything against routines at all, but I would prefer that they were baby led ones and that is what I have done with all 4 of mine. And those of us who don't like her aren't judging a parent for using her methods but we don't have to understand why anyone does. I just don't like a parenting practice that is PROVEN to have physchologically damaging effects on babies and children. What she does IS harmful to babies and children. Tell me how does saying that letting your baby or child cry till they VOMIT a good thing?
As far as the Danger word goes... ok from my own experience...
When ds wasn't sleeping and DH and I were out of ideas we got every book available at the Library and perused them... I picked up SOS and by the time i had finished, I felt the words on the page reprimanding me as i was doing all the "wrong" things..picking him up, feeding him to sleep (in bed sometimes), rocking to sleep, etc etc. ...as a result i felt anxious and a bit disturbed thinking that i was the reason my ds wasn't sleeping and therefore the sleep deprivation was my doing.
From my experience, to a new mum who had very limited support I can see how reading her book could be classified as DANGEROUS- to new parents and their mental health.
Side note: thankfully it wasn't long at all before I learned to trust my mummy instincts and chucked the book.
I absolutely stand by the fact that I think her methods are dangerous! I have seen a newborn baby be left alone in their own room to 'cry it out', (at 4 days old) and watched his mother pump while listening to her new born baby cry in the next room, in fear of enouraging 'bad habits'. I have seen a mother breastfeed her baby (who was very sick at the time) until she fell asleep, and instead of allowing the baby to fall asleep at her mothers breast and be cuddled, she woke her up as she 'needed to be stimulated so that she doesnt get used to falling asleep at the breast'. I have seen a baby lose his voice due to crying over an hour. I have seen a mother speak of running out of milk with her newborn - she had tried to feed her every 4 hours at 6 weeks old. I have seen a toddler cry uncontrollably everytime she has to go to bed, because she has developed a fear of being left alone. I have seen a newborn baby be left in a bouncer because his parents dont want to overstimulate him. I have seen parents forcing their newborn baby to bed a 7pm. I have seen parents refer to a baby who doesnt sleep 12 straight hours as a bad baby. I have seen parents panic about rushing home to make sure they dont ruin the routine. I have seen a baby become dehydrated due to hot weather and a parent who feeds strictly on a schedule. Make no mistake, TH instructions are dangerous! They are dangerous because parents are ignoring their instincts. They are dangerous because they dont always work and they assume all babies are the same....and they are not....making parents feel like failures. They are dangerous because desperate parents are relying on her methods to work for them, and because TH encourages them to be strict (STAY STRONG...YOU WILL WIN THIS ENCOUNTER...she says) they dont make allowances for situations where extra cuddles, extra feeding, rocking, patting, dummies, co-sleeping...are appropriate and necessary.
Thats a really good point. A lot of parents are probably already emotionally on edge when they decide that they need some help and advice from a book and to be told over and over that you are doing the wrong thing could be what tips you over. And that would be for a normal situation and I can only imagine that it would be worse if you had PND. Now I am not saying that any other book is the best or anything of the sort, but I am saying that these books and others like it can be very very damaging because as parents, especially first time parents we do enough second-guessing of our abilities as it is, let alone having a book tell you that you are doing a crap job too by wanting to cuddle your baby!:
I am not asking anyone to change their opinion. I am asking people to think about how they critique this book - over emotive posts that are all about "TIZZIE HALL OMG DEVIL" (I know you are all more articulate then that, but it does illustrate my point...)don't do anyone any favours - including your own opinion/argument. I think if you want to critique this book, you can say that you think it's bad and the reasons why but over emotive posts that play on parents emotions are unhelpful for all involved.
I am only talking about TH and her advice and the reasons why I think the book is bad. I do this by illustrating points with real life experiences...what really happens once the book is read and put into practice. Im not saying YOU are a bad parent, Im saying that she preys on vulnerable parents, who as a result may ignore their own intincts, and make choices that may have quite negative effects.
Quote:
Oringinally posted by Dollyroux:
Over emotive posts that play on parents emotions are unhelpful for all involved...
I believe this is exactly what TH does only she does it through a $30 book.
I just wanted to add here that I think that unfortunately it is our western society as a whole that creates the whole 'baby not sleeping' issue - when really, there is NO issue, a baby does what it does - which is sleep when it needs too whether it be night or day, cries when it's hungry whether that be hourly or four hourly and seeks attention when it is awake and wanting stimulation/cuddles etc....
If I had a dollar for everytime someone has asked me since my son was born "So is he sleeping through the night yet?", I would be a very rich woman, and these questions started when he was only a few weeks old!!!!! :o Very soon I learnt to just say that he was, as otherwise I was bombarded with advice on how to get him to sleep through, which was usually CC, even from my female GP who has two kids of her own!! I wasn't fussed though, I was breast feeding about 3 hourly through the night, but back asleep within about 40 mins so I was doing pretty well getting my own sleep anyway, albeit 'interrupted'. It disturbs me how when you are pregnant people throw constant negative comments to the parents-to-be like "Get some sleep while you can", "You'll never be able to ..... have sex/go out/eat a hot dinner/etc etc etc again" which just STARTS the whole issue before a baby is even born. I don't know why some people even bother to HAVE children if they are so negative about it all anyway!! :rolleyes: Anyway, the parents are already on the back foot thinking "What if my baby doesn't sleep through the night, or cries etc etc, they are already thinking there is something WRONG with their child before it's even born :doh:
In most cultures other than western ones, mothers sleep with their babies, BF their babies and wear their babies constantly - our society has ALOT to answer for and unfortunately with each generation it seems we are distancing ourselves from our children more and more and ensuring they dont 'intrude' too much on the lives we expect to lead. Personally, finding the BellyBelly site was a lifesaver for me as gentle parenting IS my style so having a community to support that is very important to me.
Although I don't support THs methods, I have read her book (truthfully not realising when I started exactly what her methods were), but I DID find some useful tips in there about sleep associations (we now use a sleeping bag during the day to signal nap time) and a few other bits and pieces that helped me understand how much sleep my baby needs and also I found that the routines almost matched my sons baby led ones anyway - so she's not totally off the mark there either. So reading the next age brackets routine has given me some guidance and expectation of how my baby is changing. So I don't think we should just decided as individuals what other individuals should or shouldn't be reading. It sounds like reading the book was actually fantastic for some of us in the sense that it very much reminded us what we DONT want to be doing, although in my case it was a bit of both.
It's all very well to tell a Mum to follow her instincts, but when a new mother is sleep deprived, emotional and recovering from birthing her baby, sometimes those instincts are not at all obvious to her, so she will seek guidance from books, internet and friends, just like most of us have by the sounds of it. There are going to be mothers that follow THs methods, or part-thereof, but as much as we might not agree with it, it's their choice as a parent.
I would hazard a guess that a large majority of parents that turn to these books are those who are hearing the "Isn't your baby sleeping through" comments and thinking that they should do something about it. I hope that over the next generations we see a return to gentle parenting styles and Mothers spend more time cuddling their babies rather than trying to get them to 'fit' into a timeline that is contrast to the baby's needs.
So after all that rambling, I guess my message is that each mother will choose what works for her, and what advice, guidance or method she identifies with. The best gift we can give a mother is support without judgement and let her know its perfectly normal to be up a number of times a night, to have a messy house because they are spending time with their baby, or that its ok to go home so their baby can sleep if they want too.
Otherwise if we force one way (eg gentle parenting) on a mother just because WE think its right, then we are doing exactly the same as Tizzie Hall and all the other so called experts out there that are pushing their agendas....
**steps off soapbox** :D
Dollyroux, if I linked article after article after article of studies done that prove that CIO of extinction crying and detatched parenting are detrimental to an infant/childs health, therefore proving that her methods are no good, would that be acceptable? I have gone well past the point of trying to explain it in a rational way because people who swear by TH just don't want to hear it. She is making MILLIONS of dollars from undermining a parents natural instinct and making them feel like ****house mothers in the process and there is nothing rational about that. I say that she is the devil or evil because she has all of these studies proving that what she is doing isn't good, yet she continues to do it? And make money off it? She isn't sitting around somewhere thinking, "hmmmmm, maybe what I am recommending isn't the best thing after all" NO! she just keeps churning it out.
THIS IS LIKELY TO OFFEND ...... SORRY IN ADVANCE.
I'm just wondering how many of you have actually read the book start to finish or are you just making snap judgements on what others have said because they have read a chapter here or there? Someone says it is a form of CC and you just believe them? Either read the book in its entirity or keep your ill-informed opinions to yourself. If you have read the book, and you feel it isnt for you, then that is great. I'm sure your opinions are appreciated.
I bought this book for my then 13 month old DS1, used her techniques and within four nights he was sleeping through (HAPPILY) and we have never looked back!! I also used it with DS2 right from his first night in hospital and he has slept through almost from 4 weeks old (again HAPPILY).
And can I say that almost everyone I come across asks how I have managed to have two kids who sleep so well, are so happy and well adjusted and who enjoy going to bed. I also have a two year old that does not throw tantrums. They have suffered NO negativity because of this book whatsoever.
If you're in two minds, please give it a chance. It has worked very well for us and I have recommended it to numerous friends of mine too who have also experienced positive outcomes.
And to that person, who moves her book to another area ... how dare you !!!! Your opinions are yours only. Not everyone agrees with you.
I understand that BB is a gentle parenting site but I stand by this book 100%.
(Like I said, sorry!!!)
Delatdawn - im glad you have found success in using this book, however, having studied child development from birth to 12 years in both of my degrees, I can say with absolute conviction that her methods go against all child development theories. Im sure there are people out there who have used her methods and have happy well adjusted children, however, there are many who do not.
I have read the book cover to cover, and was astounded at the lack of supporting research in children's cognitive and social/emotional development used to support her methods. She calls herself an expert... an expert who does not touch on current understanding of children's emotional development or attachment theories is not an expert in my opinion. An expert is well researched and uses developmental theories to back up her their own theories.
As for success in having children sleep through the night from an early age - Read the current research by James McKenna (children's natural sleeping patterns), or the attachment theories of mother and child by John Bowlby (attachment and the sleeping environment). Current research suggests that nature designed babies to NOT sleep through the night. Breastmilk is high in sugar and quickly digested, prompting young infants to wake often to feed. This is natural and normal and the way nature intended to keep infants attached/close to their mother and sleep safely. There is too much to explain but I suggest you read more literature on the matter. You may be surprised!
Yes I have read her book. I read it years ago after I borrowed if from my local library to see what all the fuss was about. Why would you assume (and quite rudely too I might add) that we didn't? Although I do have to question why you chose to use her methods on a newborn. Newborns are meant to wake up regularly it is what they do.
ETA - I also wanted to add that I used to read her monthly column in Practical Parenting magazine, which appeared month after month with no other sleep advice form anyone else. Myself and a few others from BB got organised and wrote letters to the Editor of PP and requested that they didn't use TH every single month as it wasn't giving mothers other options and they might think that TH was the ONLY way kwim. Our letters worked and she was dropped as their sleep expert and they started using advice from other people as well.
i have to say, and my opinion may not be wanted here, but i will give it, that i joined bb to give support to other women, and to gain support when i really need it. to have other mothers tell me that what im doing is psychologically damaging to my child, wrong and evil is horrific for me to hear. I never felt TH said i was doing it wrong when i read the book (cover to cover), but when i read your comments well i have never felt more criticised and judged in my life. isnt this site supposed to be about positive support? there are ways to say things and ways not to. perhaps something like, "for those who arent so sure about TH's methods have you thought of reading Pinky McKay or another author" or "If you thought SOS was good for you, do you know about these other authors/methods etc i found them great, and they may also be of assistance to you and give you a different spin on things?" wouldn't these sorts of comments be more rational and helpful?
As a first time mother, i felt completely lost, i was at the point where i thought i couldnt go on, sleep deprivation (my DD only slept 3 hours total of any given 24 hour period from 2-6weeks) emotionally exhausted from the 9 yes without exageration, 9 hours of ear piercing, inconsolable screaming each day (which was diagnosed as "colic"), the 12 hours of bf each day, lack of support from my DH, no milk till day 9, then low supply which meant when i wasnt bf i was pumping to build my supply up, mastitis for over a week, the list goes on, all of these things meant i was at my wits end, and honestly considered walking away from it all. then i read sos, it made some sense, i didnt believe it worked but i was willing to try anything. from sos i gained a lot of good tips for winding/"colic", reflux (later my dd was diagnosed with this hence the screaming early on), recognising tired signs, understanding my dd's cries and what they signalled, the need for day sleeps etc. i kept getting told to recognise the tired signs, and read the type of cry, however saying that to a first time mother is like the pav metaphor in earlier posts, you say i need eggs and strawberries, but what do i do with them?? in other words, what specifically are the tired signs? what types of cries are there and how do you distinguish them? sos lists things to watch and listen for and made me more aware of my dd's needs. i had also decided to give up bf (with great distress to me) at 6 weeks, once i put her on sos i found the energy to push through bf problems and continue it, i felt as though a weight had been lifted, my dd actually slept, which allowed me to rest too! i let her cio for one night, after that i never had to for weeks as she simply didnt cry anymore. she now has a cry often, however shes teething so im pretty sure that explains that, i dont use cio on her now. anyway my point is, some of the posts in this thread are not supportive to other mothers, there are people who have said read it with an open mind, and i agree, as there may be something that you take away from reading sos, even if all you get from it is "it's not for me".
i have read recently some pinky mckay stuff, and i found her "top up before you go to bed" distinctly similar to TH's dreamfeed, among other things i found had similarities. I think theres something to be said for ALL so called "experts" and if you choose to do some research and get some tips from these "experts" theres no reason you cant take a tip from each of them that suits you and fits your family best and give it a try.
the thing is jen, the dreamfeed, also know as the top up feed, was known and discussed long before th put it in her book. she did not discover that! we are not here to put other mothers down, only to discuss the points in her book.
Jen, not one single person has said directly to another person that they are damaging their child. We are saying that TH's advice is damaging to children. We know that not one single parent would harm their child and they use parenting advice from books with the very best of intentions. If it worked, that's awesome, and to be completely fair gentle methods don't work for all children too. They don't read the same books as we do, do they? So you do have to do what works for you, but is it really necessary to leave a child cry for hours? Is it really necessary to let a baby cry because they are hungry just because a book tells you they aren't ready for another feed yet? Her books, and others like it go against the very nature of what it is to be human kwim? She doesn't have to say directly that you are doing the wrong thing, but she maintains that her ways work so she doesn't HAVE to say it. By telling you that you your baby must go to sleep at a certain time when they are wide awake and you might want to have a bit of quality time with your baby because they are wide awake, doesn't that mean that therefore what you are doing is wrong?
If you are happy 100% with the way it has worked out for you then thats wonderful, it really is, but you cannot let yourself get offended when other people call it how they see it because it is not a judgement call on anyone at all, even though we may not ever understand why people like her so much. ANd you're right, BB is a gentle parenting site and you will never, ever see TH's and others methods endorsed on this website.
i realise she didnt discover it, im saying they are the same thing....
i feel it detrimental to a mothers health to read that what shes doing is evil and psychologically damaging. i think the wording of some posts makes them come across in a different manner to how they are meant.
i will continue to do things my way, with a little of this and a little of that, and a lot of whatever works for my dd, regardless of anyones opinion. i do hope others wont change what works for them just because a few people told them its evil
Thanks Jen, you seem to understand what I'm saying. No one should be punished for choosing to bring their children up in certain ways. I found something that worked for me and it seems I am crucified for it every time I mention it on BB. While BB wont encourage it, we should still feel free to discuss it. BB doesnt encourage FF either but there is a thread for it.
Issy02 - You use the word "theories" a lot in your post. That is all they are - theories. If you are from a research background like I am, you will no doubt agree that they will be disproven at some point anyway so why base your whole belief system on it? Remember when the world was flat? Remember when smoking was healthy? Having worked at one of Brisbane's major hospitals for 7 years in clinical trials (I also studied child development as part of my health degree) I have no faith in studies/trials whatsoever, usually not worth the paper they are written on. At the end of the day, my personal research has shown that 100% of my subjects (my two boys) are happy and healthy and if I can help others enjoy that, I will (and I have). I even take special note NOT to read studies that have been published because they are usually rubbish.
Trillian - I'm sorry you found my post to be rude but for 3.5 years that I've been on BB I've been holding my tongue and have never felt like I've been able to express my views unless it adheres to the BB guidelines of gentle parenting. I did this time. If this truly was a supportive environment, we should be able to openly discuss it without worry of such posts.
I'm with Jen. I will continue to do things the way that is working for me and will continue to suggest it to others who need help. Afterall, that is what a supportive forum is all about, isnt it?
trillian i didnt see your post before i posted last, no i dont think its necessary for a baby to be left crying for hours, and i also dont think it necessary to make them wait for a feed, tbh i dont know a single person in my life who would do that.
i do know many who follow sos and love it, and have not had to let their baby cio, wait for a feed, or anything of a similar nature.
i dont expect this site to endorse anything, but as deltadawn said i feel i should be free to discuss whatever methods i want to, without fear of people telling me my methods are damaging my child (yes my methods because if i use THs methods they then become my methods, and therefore you are putting ME down as well as her) perhaps this is why i just dont post anywhere normally except my baby buddies, who are tactful in their dislike of what i do.
perhaps this section on routines should be removed or renamed if the only routines you can freely discuss are those that conform to gentle parenting ideals.
i have introduced feed to sleep as i felt dd needed the comfort at bedtime, and while it works to put her to sleep, i now cannot leave her with anyone, i have to be with her at bedtime as she will not settle for anyone bar me, which has caused problems, especially as i have been asked to return to work early, so as you say gentle parenting methods have their disadvantages/dont work for everyone as well.
edit: i wanted to say if you read the book years ago perhaps some of it has changed since you read it, this years revision is different to the one i had on loan which was a few yrs old. i recall a line in both versions "never ignore an emotional cry, go strait to your baby and comfort them" so she doesnt say to leave your baby regardless. also my DH's DD used to stick her fingers down her throat and make herself sick in protest of bedtime (regardless of the time), just so she could stay up and watch tv, so some children do do these things for absolutely no reason, im sure its rare but it does happen.
Deltadawn, Meh, dont let it get to you.
I read SOS, and I have used parts of it.
I did hold my baby out for the next feed because it meant 100mls every 2 hrs 24/7 OR 200mls every 4.
I got sick of preparing 12 bottles a day, not to mention the waste when I wasnt sure what he wanted and fed him JIC.
I did let my bubs CIO for the first time, after that, he got better with each sleep and by day 2 of this regime,was settling straight away.
My bubs doesnt feed to sleep, he doesnt need to. He will go to sleep anywhere and for anyone.
I also CHOSE to formula feed my bubs, I tried BF for about a week and I couldnt stand it.
I dont feel guilty for any of my parenting choices, thats why I dont feel the need to justify them.
Hell, there are 100's of threads on this site about "gentle parents" who havent had a full nights sleep in years.
You and I arent one of them, and that is good enough for me :D
So what if some of them aren't getting a full night sleep? They are meeting their childs needs the way they think is best, just as you are. From your tone it sounds like you think you are superior for doing it that way? Babies and children are not an inconvenience that at all times must fit in around us, so we don't lose out on sleep. I would like to know what you would do though if you have another child who does not fit this method at all. Would you persevere and force your baby to do something they don't want to do or would you think that maybe there is another way? The point that we were trying to make at the beginning of this thread was that not one single person who claims to use TH, uses the methods right down to the last letter, and the reason? Because we have children, not machines that we can program to do exactly what a schedule says to do, so that is why you read so much of people who take bits and pieces that work for them.
Deltadawn - These 'theories' I speak of are incredibly important insights into how babies and children develop and behave. They have been studied for a hell of a long time and are what childrens services, and educators base their practice on. Just by saying they are crap and not worth the paper they are written on, demonstrates to me you know nothing about them!!!!!!!! And the ones I speak of HAVE NOT BEEN DISPROVEN...quite the opposite, they have been proven through years and years of observations and research THAT IS NOT OUT TO GAIN A PROFIT!...but rather to gain insight into the psychological development of children. They are not trials!!!! Child development is my profession...and the small part you probably studied as part of your health degree is obviously tokenistic and poorly delivered. Its interesting to me that you would rather take the word of an inexperienced...poorly researched, MARKETER, out to gain a profit...over the word of numerous behavioral psychologists who base their findings on years and years of observations and study simply to understand the human functioning.
Delta, I'd like to just add something regarding what you've said in the above here.:
Nope I have not read this book so I am not going to comment on the book as such however going by all the comments it does not sound like the type of book that I would follow as I 'parent out of instinct' here. That's the best way for our family and the way nature intended.
I would like to add however.... you say your 2yr old doesn't have tantrums? You say this like it's a good thing? Well, it's quite NORMAL for 2yrs old's to have tantrums anyway did you know that?
According to Dr Margot Sunderland (a well known child psychologist)..... "the too-good child who does not have tantrums may have learned early on that expressing big feelings elicits a frightening parental response, and that the price of parental love is total compliance. She explains that the too-good child misses out on vital brain sculpting, meaning that when he faces frustration in later life, he may respond with angry outbursts or struggle to be assertive.
Just something for you to think about.
Also..... it's VERY normal for babies to wake often in the night... it's natures way of keeping them safe (ie from SIDS etc) and close to their parents.. my 13mth old DD still wakes often in the night.... yes we are tired but we manage and we know that one day when she is developmentally ready to, in her own time, she WILL sleep through and she'll be a happy baby for that :D
There is no competition as to when babies sleep through the night.... .all in THEIR own time. You can't force them to. And if you do.... how do you even know what effect it really does have on them?? :dunno:
Something else for you to think about. But your kids are your kids.... you parent how YOU feel it's right for you and your family so each to their own I guess ;)
and might I add....all the theorists and child psychologists I speak of are continually discussed and used as a basis for practice, at University. Never heard of TH whilst at university though....funny that!
Shanti - tantrums are absolutely a NORMAL part of toddlerhood. They are an important part of a child's developing brain, allowing them to test boundaries, express emotion and take risks. They also assist in teaching them how to express their emotion more effectively, with adult guidence. You are 100% correct in what you raised here. Good on you!!!!
Well pointed out Shanti, i think that a 2 year old who never tantrums may feel as though their voice is not worth being heard.
If the book has worked for you, then that's great. But BB was originally created as a gentle parenting website and this book goes against that philosophy. So of course many members on here are not going to like it.
I have read the book. My MCHN actually suggested it to our mothers group when ds1 was a baby. I borrowed it off a friend who had it and was quite horrified and upset. I have never studied child development, but alarm bells were ringing so loud in my head. I am so glad that BB directed me towards reading 'The Science of Parenting'. This has become my fave parenting book and i'm often reading bits out aloud to DH. No, we haven't slept properly for 2.5 years now, but i'm sure we'll have plenty of time to catch up on that later on when our kids are older.
ooooh I have just started reading this book!! Since I finished my pinky book ;):
Ginger, you're right. We have plenty of time later on to sleep.... as tiring and as hard as it can be waking in the night to our little ones, thats just what you do as loving parents isn't it? And they are only little once... night time cuddles are precious and part of the bonding that occurs between parents and lil' ones.
yep i agree Shanti. i'm making the most of the cuddles with my boys at the moment. I often lie there just taking in the moment, particularly as we are not having any more kids, so i really want to savour this time when they are so young.
i've read all of pinky's books too. i think they're great.
The science of parenting really spells things out in a simple way i think, and just confirms everything we're already doing. it's great to have it as a source of support.
I have tried very hard not to post in here. But here I am!
I have read the entire book. I didn't follow it and I don't like it but each to their own. I have two boys that are brilliant sleepers, very independent, great manners and fantastic eaters. I am always getting comments about them - DS2's family day carer just can't believe how grown up, happy and helpful DS2 is and how well he eats and sleeps. So I guess that can happen without SOS ;)
My reason for posting however, is that I get quite concerned when I read about babies sleeping through from 4 weeks. Babies should not be sleeping through at this age - usually it is a sign that they are not getting enough milk and are too sleepy to wake up. The whole physiology of babies and breast feeding is that babies feed often, and that night feeds are particularly important. DD, if you are happy with the results you achieved then that's great. But I think it's important to point this information out for other mums so that they are not setting themselves unrealistic and potentially dangerous expectations.
And now I'll bow out.
LOL I find it hilarious that we just can't win. We are damned if our child misbehaves and damned if they're well behaved too! :rolleyes::
I personally think tantruming can be a personality thing. My DS didn't tantrum as a 2yr old.. we BREEZED through the 2's with him! I know other 2yr olds who have been gentle parented (more gentle than us!) that were quite delightful and content. Turning 3 was another story tho ;) Boy did we discover attitude! LOL. Both my kids are parented the same (well.. as in same philosophy.. definitely no CIO so can't blame the 'good' 2yo behaviour on him not feeling heard) and we've now got a tantruming 2yr old little miss LOL. I really do think personality and luck of the draw with that plays a big part.
MantaRay - great post. I agree with what you have said re frequent waking and breastfeeding. If there is one thing I like to tell new mums.. it's that it's ok for a baby to wake and feed... for MANY months. People seem to have milestones in their heads.. like 6 weeks or 12 weeks.. that that is when their baby should be sleeping through. I like to get it out there that these babies are RARE. And yes... i agree it is very dangerous to be encouraging sleeping through (as in 12 hrs!!) for newborns. Very detrimental to breastfeeding :(
One thing I remember from the ABA breastfeeding class was they said not to take breastfeeding advice from anyone who hasn't successfully breastfed. I would say it's the same for parenting... why take parenting/baby advice from anyone who hasn't ever had a baby??
Issy - You have totally missed my point :wall:. My point is that there was once a time (for e.g.) that everyone thought the world was flat and then it was disproven. All I am saying is that while you read numerous supporting publications on your theories, there are probably just as many publications out there disproving them. I'm certainly not saying you're misinformed, I'm just saying that what may be fashionable now may very well be old news tomorrow. I have one word for you - Thalidomide. I wonder if those GP's prescribing Thalidomide at the time also stated "with absolute conviction" that it was safe. I think it would be incredibly naive for anyone to say anything with "absolute conviction" when it comes to child rearing which is a forever changing science.
Shanti - I agree, all kids are different. I was referring to bedtime tantrums only. I would happily invite you to playtime at the shopping centre when it is time to go home :D
MLM - Thank you!! I also chose to FF as I was turned off by BF (something else I never felt comfortable discussing on BB - thanks for your admission!!!).
My point - OK, all I am saying is that in my experience, when I started this method my DS cried for 32 minutes the first night, 12 minutes the second night and 4 minutes the third night. On the fourth night he fell straight asleep and woke happily in the morning. Now, at 6.50pm every night and 11.50am every day, he gathers up Mickey Mouse and his blanket and happily toddles off to bed. This technique worked for my DS and I fail to see how this has affected him for life. I still get my cuddles and my kisses and my quality time with both my boys. I think the fact that Mummy/Daddy hold babies down for immunisations several times in their young life (and yes, I support immunisations) would be more detrimental to them than a couple of nights of crying. Would this be classed as gentle parenting? Just something for people to think about ......
oh... and since we're throwing backhanded little jibes around...:
Those people whose babies sleep through are missing out on soooo many cuddles and so much bonding time. I'm not one of them... that's good enough for me :D
I LOVE having my kids bring themselves into our bed and snuggle up. They're welcome any time and they know it. Wouldn't give it up for the world.
liz - ahahaha...love it! Soooo true!
DD- Im not missing your point - i hear you loud and clear!!!! But I have to correct you, they are not just 'popular' or 'fashionable' right now (unlike the 'fashionable' Tizzie Hall) and not all are simply theories! Please, this is behavioural science, the science of the human brain and behaviour. Im not going to continue this argument, particularly if you have not spent 6 years studying child development and behavioural science!
I can say with absolute conviction that her methods go against all child development theories - HER METHODS go against all CHILD DEVELOPMENT THEORIES!!!!!! It is what it is....
And Im sorry, Im not getting into the whole breastfeeding/bottle feeding argument here, but DD and MLM those comments you made, make me so sad...is it all about what you need? what you want? whats best for you? you were turned off by bf? you couldnt stand it? I think TH is probably just the ticket for you both, since parenting seems to be about pleasing YOU!
Im not saying you are a bad mother for not breastfeeding your babies, its just the way you put it, and your reasoning behind it seems so cold. So many mothers try so hard to breastfeed their babies, and for whatever reasons, are not successful and have no choice. But to choose bottlefeeding because you were turned off by it...or just couldnt stand it...I just cant understand that. Sorry.
I've been reading this thread with great interest but haven't posted because I have not read SOS, neither have I read Pinky or Pantley or any other parenting book. So I can't comment on that aspect.
But, I just wanted to put out there, there is a reason babies don't come with a manual. Trust your instincts. They will always be better than what's written in a book.
Issy, with all due respect, dont feel sorry for me, I dont.:
I am not asking you to understand me. I just get sick of keeping my mouth shut because my choices dont fit in with the majority here. (although II suspect I am not the only one by a long way, but anyhoo)
I just dont understand the foot stomping and table bashing that goes on everytime this book comes up. If are confident in your parenting decisions, why do you feel the need to beat the crap out of any method that doesnt agree with your ideology?
Hell, I could have posted in so many threads where people have had sleeping issues, but I have chosen not to, because I understand that TH isnt for them and I respect their right to do it the way that they are most comfortable.
My DS gets cuddles, he comes into bed with us in the morning, and I always get up to him if he cries in the night, because if he is upset, I KNOW there is something wrong, otherwise he just settles himself straight back to sleep.
FWIW, I didnt start SOS until DS was 4 months, I tried the gentle way,and my instincts told me that it wasnt working for us, so I tried a different way :)
Well said, Eluned!:
I have been reading with intrest also. I haven't read SOS, (but I am however reading The Science of Parenting).
Just wondering (purely out of curiosity) - it seems to me that a lot of you who read SOS & didn't like it went on to read other parenting books.
Just wondering if those of you who liked SOS & used it ever read (for example) Science of Parenting or anything else similar?
ETA:
MLM, I agree we should be able to discuss differrent routines & choices respectfully.:
I just dont understand the foot stomping and table bashing that goes on everytime this book comes up.
I think it's just that people who feel strongly about this feel a responsibility to let other parents, especially new parents, know that there are other ways that may be more suited to them.
For example - if you read of a mother who was leaving her child alone in the car while she shopped, you would let her know it's not ideal, right? (I'm not comparing TH to leaving your child in a car - just making an example).
As someone who tried CIO and similar methods with my older children because I was told to by all the 'experts & professionals' I spoke to - and it didn't work for us - I wish there had been a book like TSOP for someone to steer me to. It would have saved me a lot of angst back then.
This is what I think Trillian & issy are getting at. (apologies, ladies if I've got you wrong ;))
MLM - its is not YOU i feel sorry for.
Jasp - good point. And I love your daughters name...i may have to steal that one and pop it onto my girls names list...;)