He was OK. Not a fan on the head halter, which is tough. I have more control over him than with the check collar. He wants to please, so that is in his favour. We have lots of practising to do and I need to lower my voice an octave
Saying that, when we came home and I went to change, I heard the sound of rustling. Came out to find he'd stolen a bag of treats off the kitchen bench and scoffed the lot. So he got walked around in a circle, feeling sorry for himself.
I'm feeling a bit more confident but that may last just until the next walk. We'll see how we go.
Christy - there is a point of no return and we've discussed that. It would break my heart, but I'd rather that than someone is seriously hurt.
Having any dog with a behavioural issue, particularly one like fear aggression, is so, so hard.
Personally, i believe that you have to find a behaviourist and a technique that works for you, and the dog. They are all different, and some dogs just do not respond to all techniques.
Personally I had a LOT of success with Dog Listener techniques and i use them today with all my dogs. I had a dog aggressive English Setter who is 10 years old now and while he does on occasion still react to other dogs he is no where near as bad as he used to be (he used to go nuts seeing a dog 10 m away and now he barely reacts if dogs walk past him - it's quite possible this is just through sheer laziness though!). If you don't feel as though certain things are working, do not be afraid to try something else or change behaviourists.
Also it's good to remember that while it's very easy for people to judge your dog for having fear aggression with other dogs, there is more than one way of dogs having poor socialisation skills. Often times, those overly friendly, crazy off lead dogs that just LOVE every dog, are the ones that can cause the most issues. they usually lack control, are over stimulated and cannot read the very subtle signals that your dog may be giving them before giving them a much deserved snap. Sometimes it's these types of encounters, which leads to a fairly well socialised dog to become overly wary, and give a warning much earlier due to being wary.
L&B I hope that your latest classes begin to help you.
As an aside, LuluHB I notice you are in Perth. if you are interested in trying to combat your dogs issues, I have some friends with reactive dogs that have gone through "Reactive Rover" classes, and had success. you can google them for information. it requires a one on one consult initially, but as I said, heard wonderful things about them.
Just want to add a couple of other things after re-reading your post. Firstly after having him just 2.5 months, you are doing a wonderful job and I really commend you for working so hard to get him through these issues. As you have already witnessed, a lot of people out there seem to think that the only option after an incident is to PTS... its simply not the case every time. I have seen many a dog rehomed for "bad" behavioural issues, only for the dog to end up in the right hands, where the dog no longer has these issues, or they work hard to get through them.
I also currently know of two dogs on a destruction order by the council (case pending). These dogs were taken on by a rescue during the case and placed in foster homes knowing their possible fate. Both dogs have had no issues and have settled well with their foster homes. Unfortunately with the council involved it doesn't look good for these dogs but it just shows how a change of circumstance for dogs can give them a clean slate, with owners willing to understand and work with them.
Just in regards to the halti - nto sure if you want to try, but there is a product called a "balance harness" by black dog wear. You buy them with a double ended lead which you attach at the front and top of the harness (a traditional harness has a top loop and gives the dog plenty of control and pulling power). they work in a similar way to a halti, where you pull them around to redirect their attention/energy, however while you maintain control, the dogs tolerate them a bit better, as it's not pushing the pressure points on their muzzle which is what makes the halti so uncomfortable and even unbearable for some dogs.
Thanks to everyone who has provided advice. We are continuing classes twice a week, DH and I alternating who is trained with the dog. We both feel we have better control whilst walking the dog and he is noticeably calmer. He still reacts to dogs and some people but he is learning not to. The critical distance is shortening too. Whereas he would lose it seeing a dog 20 metres away whilst on lead, now he can stay in control up to about 3 metres at class. It still depends on the situation though.
We are using a black dog brand head halter and lead. It can't hurt him if he doesnt pull. At home, he just wears a normal collar. When he barks or growls at home (which happens if he hears someone approaching), he is told a sharp No and walked slowly around the dining table. He is still doing it, but now he looks to us more before he loses control. We had tradesmen at the house today removing trees and he was kept inside, occassionally growling or barking, but mostly just lying down watching them calmly.
Anyway, I do feel that the new training is making a big difference, if only to our confidence. there may be no magic cure, but I'm hoping that in a few months, he'll be safe off lead with other dogs. I feel sad for him missing out on playing with his doggie friends. We used to take him up for doggie playtime nearly every night and they'd run around having a ball. However, until we can trust him to come back when called and not to attack another dog, we can't take him. We do make sure he has play time with us though.
One thing that i am speculating about and will be taking him back to the vet for, is I think he may not be neutered. I think he has undescended testicles. He doesnt have the tattoo in his ear to say he was desexed but an absence of a scrotum and testicles means the people at the pound, vets and rescue organisation have all said he is desexed. Every now and again, when he rolls over for a belly rub, I can see what could be 2 small testicles. They are not always obvious though. I've been trying to get a photo so I can ask a vet, but doggie doesnt cooperate at those times. He may need an ultrasound/blood tests. Whilst getting neutered (if he does need it) may not completely solve the behavioural problems, it may help. It will also reduce his chances of testicular cancer. Hopefully they are as obvious as they seem to me and they dont have to do a major operation to find them. It's all just speculation at this point though.
That's really great to hear that he is improving. The fact that he is looking to you more before losing control is, in my experience at least, a very good thing. It may still take some time, but definitely sounds like you're all on the right track
Just to ease some of the undesexed worries, the majority of dogs in the past 10 years or so have not have the tattoo's... in fact in the 14 years I had in the veterinary industry, only one vet clinic tattoo'd and only when the client requested it.
I would suggest that the small lumps you are feeling are his glands and usually when he is excited, these glands usually settle down around 12-18 months after desexing, but sometimes they are there for anxious dogs, like any excitement can cause them to be swollen. The should be on either side of the penile shaft near the middle of where the hind legs meet the body... if that makes sense?
thanks Christy - that probably makes more sense. Do you think I should check with the vet anyway? We have no idea when he would have been desexed. He's aged 2-3.
I've had 3 pets desexed in the last 14 years, and all of them were tattoo'd (and done at different vets). I thought it was generally done UNLESS requested not to.
I thought I'd update this thread. We've been training with Alpha for nearly 3 months and we've seen a lot of progress.
Doggie recently had a 2 week ban on going for walks due to his aggression. This was whilst we implemented boundaries in the house that he pushed back against. The new rules include not being able to walk into bedrooms uninvited. Getting the boundaries in the house sorted has improved things outside the house. He is less aggressive on walks. The consequences of being aggressive towards dogs or people are to be told off, marched home and either some isolation time in the laundry or a walking ban. But in the last week or so, he's been able to walk past dogs behind fences without even looking, let alone trying to have a go. A dog walked past the drive way yesterday and he didn't growl or anything. This is a big step for us.
There has been a marked improvement at training, with some sessions he hasn't been aggressive to other dogs at all. We've learnt to stay on top of it, so he gets a warning if we notice him staring at another dog. But he can now work in relatively close proximity to other dogs without feeling threatened. After class, we're having some trainers run their dog almost at him and so far he hasn't reacted. He does want to sniff and play though. The aim is to get him to react so he can learn not to. Overall, he's a lot more relaxed at training. Though he still doesn't like it, he's even wagged his tail a couple of times
There has been some improvement at home with him learning to accept friends in the house. He'll still bark and growl, but he'll settle down more quickly now. It's suck it up or go in the laundry, so he may gruff a bit, but he settles down, then eventually tries to suck up to visitors. However, there has been a couple of backwards steps, which we were warned would happen. We've noticed him growling at friends when he's near his bone or something, so we're coming down on that like a tonne of bricks. We think he's trying to reassert dominance. He's lovely but he's smart and if you give an inch, he'll take a mile.
a lot of the recent improvement has been DH getting very fierce in his "No"s. I haven't been as assertive or consistent, so need to keep on top of it. I get sucked into the sooky puppy dog looks, which means he chooses to listen to me less. So I need to work on that some more. He needs to know he has no choice about doing what he's told.
He's still not ready for off lead play time and we may never get there, but we're feeling a lot more confident with him now than we were when I started this thread.
Last edited by LionsandBears; October 24th, 2012 at 08:59 AM.
It's such a long hard road L&B but the rewards are so awesome. I am quietly confident that he will get there. he might not ever be the chilled out, lazy lap dog of our imaginations...and i think a very active intelligence is a key player in this (this is what we found with our dog). in our case, rules are not simply taught (she is a quick learner!) but rules are constantly thought about and challenged in so many diverse ways (and not aggressively, but you can see how she is trying to work around the 'rules IYKWIM). i remember with our old dog (a staffy) that once you taught her something that was it...so easy breezy! ahhh how i dream of that now hahaha.
Adolesence was a huge one for us. our dog was horrendous and we were warned that it would last awhile, but wow, what a shocker! i have a feeling that her being desexed super early at the rescue home has something to do with it, but this is just a feeling and i havent bothered to look into it properly.
But the perseverance does pay off. i wont go into details here as it was a long journey, however, now we know we have a dog that will never totally get other dogs (so had to let go of that dream), so have spent our energy in showing her what is appropriate and not appropriate behaviour and expect nothing more (she will never, for example, want to run and play with a pack of dogs at the off-lead park and if a group of dogs does want her to play we have to reassure her that she doesnt have to and that she can come up to us and we can hold them back...yep, playground politics hahaha).
I adopted a dog 2.5 years ago from the local pound. I think he was abused as he showed strong fear responses to any male he came into contact with.... but not females. As a result, I was the one to train him as he responded better and wasn't afraid when I growled at him for being disobedient. (He's a fox terrier mixed with something else). He'd been in care for six months by the time we rescued him, they were about to put him down.
He also had issues with other dogs, people..... etc. I found my body language was a big thing when it came to walking him. I too would get tense when another dog approached because he'd always bark like crazy and set the other dog off. I was afraid of him getting into a fight, and being a little dog... well, he wasn't going to come out of it uninjured!
It took a lot of work (on myself, mostly) to get him under control. I learned to dominate him rather than punish or praise. When he's doing something I don't like, I say his name in a very firm, low tone, and pull his lead very short and to my side. I command him to sit or stay, and he usually does. He's at the point now where he'll wait un-tied at the front of the corner shop whilst I go in and get what I need. No running off, no crazy behaviour. Not in public anyway.
The part I'm still finding challenging is his excitement level. He's a very bouncy, exciteable individual, mostly because craves my attention with me being at work all the time and so busy otherwise when I'm home. Still, a forceful command or some 'time out' in the backyard usually sets him straight. If he's misbehaving too much, no snuggle time. Straight back outside to think about what he's done. (read: sit around licking himself.... or chasing leaves)
He still doesn't respond all that well to DP, or males in general. He tends to just not listen, or react with fear. So I do most of the commanding. That works for us. I have hope that with your love and dominant guidance this puppy of yours will be just fine. You really can teach an old dog new tricks. It just takes perserverance and consistency. Oh, I also used a 'clicker' instead of treats. He learned to associate the clicking sound with doing the right thing. Eg, I would say SIT. He would sit, I would press the clicker, and give him a pat saying 'good sit'. Try to praise the action, not the dog. Another one: STAY 'click' "good stay" and so on.
We have had enormous improvement in Razz's behaviour. We can walk him on lead past other dogs without him growling or lunging. He stills growls about anyone coming to the door, but soon settles down for friends. It may take a while or never for tradies and couriers. he is a much more relaxed, secure dog than the one we feared we'd have to get rid of in July. He is now enjoying off lead time playing with other dogs in parks, but now, he returns when called.
Even today, we had a long road trip which involved him meeting new people and new dogs. He was a bit agitated about either of us being out of his sight, but apart from that, he was fine. Lots of wagging tails when meeting people, including children, and even when seeing a new dog. We are so pleased with his progress.
that is totally awesome! You guys have done way better than us regarding interaction with other dogs. i think most of our fear is our own now though. Stella is a transformed dog but i just cannot relax with her around other dogs. I should get her into a class so that i can regain confidence i guess...
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