Pitbulls

[beansbeans!]

Anyway the point of my post is.. do u think our little boy cld still turn at some stage even if we continue to socialise him frequently?? Does it just happen like that? Or do u think it is the owners fault when a dog becomes aggressive and if they had done things differently then the dog wldnt be the way it is..??

I think that if you treat your dog right than you lessen the chances of them being aggressive. (Im not sure this will sound right) But I think dogs are like all living things and have moods, get them in a bad mood on a bad day, and its not good. ( I can tell when our dog is having an off day, and we just let her have her space) Also when I was little my mum got a labrador cross dingo from death row at the pound. She (the dog) was there because she had bitten her owner's wife, who then gave her up... The long of the story was that this owner had beaten the dog many many times with a broom. Then one day the owner's wife picked up the same broom to sweep, she swept close to the dog and the dog was fearful and bit the wife. But I can honestly say that in 13yrs that we had that dog she bit two people. Different occasions but both those people tried to break into our house and hurt my family. Our dog protected us and fended them off.

ETA: Hes not yet desexed, we were going to have him done at 6 months but the vet said to wait until hes 9-10 months. Apparently getting rid of the testosterone too early in a male dog can stop their bones and muscles from developing properly. So within the next month we will definitely be getting him done. Behaviour wise- when do u suggest desexing a dog and does it help to stop aggression forming??

What the vet has said is very old school country thinking. Many farmers would never desex their dogs before a year of age due to the belief that keeping their bits would help develop a strong chest area, strong bones, doesnt stunt their growth and a longer life span... My mil did this with their schnoodle woodle wooly thing that they brought, and she swears by it.

[Asparagus and Lemons]

My half bordercollie half staghounds are meant to hunt, and herd. Thats what 'they are bred for' but they do not, because they have not been taught. Instead they cuddle up to us and sleep all day.

[*Efjay*]

My half bordercollie half staghounds are meant to hunt, and herd. Thats what 'they are bred for' but they do not, because they have not been taught. Instead they cuddle up to us and sleep all day.

I wouldn't trust a boarder collie or a cattle dog.

[boomba]

I think if you are questioning yourself now it might be best to rehome him?

I am a big believer in the temperment and training of a dog makes them what they are, BUT they are an animal and you never know what they might do!

We have a blue cattle dog....he was abused by my FIL when he lived on the farm with them, I always worried he would become a nasty aggressive dog but he is the most chilled out dog ever!!!!! But I am always responsible with him.

I suggest you get some books and do some research and see what the best option is for you and your pup xxx

[Beach Mama]

I watched the video - suggestions for socialisation were good but a few points I disagreed with.

At one point they said socialisation was the key to guaranteeing your dog will never attack. You can NEVER guarantee that the dog won't attack, no matter how many treats you might give it.
He said, "IF a dog has mauled seriously - it has happened before and the signs are there. There is always a FIRST time and in most serious attacks the dogs get put down - totally disagree.
Yes dogs will react if provoked. Most people know that - as numerous PP - there are some breeds that react in a far more severe manner than others.

TBH - as much as I might love my dog, that image of the little girl at the start would be enough for me to not have one in my house IMO, even after watching the video.

[PumpkinZulu]

I never said anyone wasn't doing everything possible in the best interests of their child, I said that to trust an animal (not just a dog, *any* animal) one hundred percent makes me uneasy, as it suggests that a person like that may be more prone to being lax with their animal than a person who doesn't trust their animal 100%...which is a totally logical conclusion to draw from that statement. 100% trust implies that you would not feel the need to (for example) watch the animal around children, because the animal has your complete trust. I don't believe anyone can trust an animal 100% truly.

Anyway. I have apologised to Alish, I really didn't mean to cause offence to anyone and it upsets me to think I have It was also upsetting to see other members calling myself and others cruel names on another part of the forum. I was not trying to be malicious and apologised a number of times for the use of the word 'stupid', although what others said about me was certainly intended (and received) as incredibly hurtful

I also never answered the OP. Surprisingly to some of you, I'm not sure I'd get rid of the dog. In theory, I would in a heartbeat, like many responses here. But realistically, I would try to keep the dog, monitor behaviour, supervise and make sure the animal was well contained, and possibly muzzle the dog and make another decision down the track.

[AndiE]

Reet, you sound like a very responsible dog owner. I could tell you all about owning jack russells and having two littlies, but that wouldn't really address what you're posting about, so I'll cut to the chase.

If you're going to keep him - and he looks like a lovely little pup - my thinking goes immediately to behavioural training ... lots and lots and lots of it. Keep him socialised and on leash at all times when out of a well-fenced yard. At the end of the day, I don't know how much help dog training would be ... but at least it gives you a measuring stick in terms of watching your dog's development/temperament.

Obviously your child comes first - and other people's children - so all I can add is that if you ever, ever doubt your dog's nature - even if one little thing makes you wonder about his temperament - then be prepared to get rid of him. I hate to say that, because I couldn't imagine us getting rid of our dogs ... but a pitbull is a pitbull. You know what they can be capable of, and you obviously have some reservation about keeping him or you wouldn't have posted.

All the best hun ...

[~ Mylitta ~]

It must be a really tough position to be in, and not one that many would understand.

Whilst it's true that any dog can attack and cause serious injury, some breeds have been specifically bred for aggression and traits that make them good fighting/hunting dogs. These same traits mean that they generally do not make good family pets - there are exceptions to every rule, but for the most part the dog has a deeply ingrained instinct that is difficult to overcome. Most dogs when provoked to the point of biting will snap then release. Enough to get the result they're after, the cessation of whatever behaviour is distressing the dog.

Some breeds though, do not release - and a pitbull is one of these. They will keep going. And going. And it's that that causes the severity of the injuries seen. Personally, that's not a risk I'd be willing to accept around young children. Simply because no matter how much supervision there is, and how well trained the dog, there is always the risk of a kid finding that one thing that triggers an aggressive response.

Exactly what I would have written. It's a really tough situation to be in. While a dog's upbringing certainly plays a huge role in their demeanor and personality, there are still always inbred traits that are carried in the blood lines. Just look at Chihuahua's who are notorious for being very snappy. But would you prefer a Chihuahua snapping at your face, or a pitbull?

Before having kids the majority of my "professional" career was spent as a surgical vet nurse. I've experienced pretty much every breed you could think of over the many years. I also run puppy classes for a number of years so experienced these breeds as both puppies and adults. I generally don't have a "fear" of any particular breeds, but I am certainly more wary and careful with some. Those include Pitbulls, Kelpies, Malamutes, GSD's, and some cattle dog breeds (Heelers and Border Collies). Sure, I've seen some absolutely beautiful dogs of those breeds, but in my experience those have been some of the breeds we've seen the most behavioural problems with. Strangely, for a breed that can often be confused by many people as Pitbulls, I've never once seen a nasty Staffy.

Animals around kids can definitely be tricky. When ever I was asked "what breed dog should I get for my kids?" my general answer was a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel if they could afford the possible heart complications the dog was likely to have, lol.

[LuluHB]

I would definitely be having him put down. IMHO, and yes its harsh, the only good pitbull is a dead one. That goes for a number of dangerous breeds - Japanese Akitas spring to mind. Then there are a number of breeds that should never, ever be in a home with children, off a lead or unmuzzled in public. Then there's just the dogs that we still have to always always watch around our children.

These dogs have been purpose bred for decades to fight. That's why they use them in dog fights - they fight to the death and just do not give up. The sweetest, kindest dog will still have its natural extinct kick in when it is either confronted with aggression or is fighting to save "its people". You have a tiny baby, and your dog's instinct is going to be to protect that baby. So what can potentially happen when down the track a family friend is having some rough and tumble play with your child that all kids love? Maybe absolutely nothing. Maybe the absolute worst. Locking jaws or not (and I was always under the impression that they did lock their jaws), these are extremely strong, solid dogs that in a frenzy are a whole lot stronger than you are. Unfortunately waiting for the first sign of aggression is often too late.

Also, FWIW I have also been told that its not correct that you need to wait for male dogs to physically mature before desexing them. My male puppy is booked in smack on 6 months, and he will grow into a big dog. The quicker testosterone is limited in a family dog the better.

[~ Mylitta ~]

Also, FWIW I have also been told that its not correct that you need to wait for male dogs to physically mature before desexing them. My male puppy is booked in smack on 6 months, and he will grow into a big dog. The quicker testosterone is limited in a family dog the better.

While I'm definitely pro-desexing, and definitely like it to be done at 6 months for pet dogs that are at risk of breeding (obviously not breeding dogs), there's actually quite a bit of literature that shows that 6 months is not always the ideal time to desex. A study in 1991 found that a number of factors including the sex hormones are what promote the closing of the growth plates in dogs. So it's actually the opposite of what is believed; dogs desexed early are actually more likely to be bigger than late-desexed or non-desexed dogs because the growth plates take longer to close and their bones continue to grow for longer. This can cause a higher incidence of things like hip displasia and damaged cruciate ligaments later down the track. This obviously makes it a difficult choice for some owners as to when they should desex their dog as they have to balance the risk of changing their dog's natural growth with the risk of sex hormone based behaviours. A 2004 study actually found that early desexing can increase the incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females...

While that seems a little off-topic, I just wanted to put it out there in case anyone was thinking that the OP was negligent in not desexing yet.

[~mamaspice~]

Argh Reet, I'm sorry you're in this position. And like others have said, you sound like a really responsible pet owner.
But me personally, I would never own a pit bull or any breed of dog that has a lock jaw reflex. A pit bull killed a sleeping Collie in my nan and pops street once. The Collie was asleep in its own yard and the pit bull jumped the fence and attacked it. It was a totally unprevoked attack and no-one could get the pitbull off the collie. Someone was hitting it with a metal bar to try to get it off the collie and it still didn't let go.

best of luck with your decision.

[Cassius2]

Anyway the point of my post is.. do u think our little boy cld still turn at some stage even if we continue to socialise him frequently?? Does it just happen like that? Or do u think it is the owners fault when a dog becomes aggressive and if they had done things differently then the dog wldnt be the way it is..??

Like i said it made me feel sick when i saw just how many maulings and deaths there are by pitbulls each year in Australia, i cant imagine ever being the owner of something so savage I also sometimes like to think of it as, well lucky we bought him or he might have been sold to someone who was going to bring him up in a bad environment and make him into some tough guard dog. I think we're the best owners for him??

Ur thoughts and opinions on this matter wld be greatly appreciated. Even any suggestions as to how to stop him turning into one of those aggressive pitbulls.

I'm sorry that you guys have been put in this position It was/is cruel that the dog was advertised under a codename that a lay person wouldn't have on the radar and then of course, once you see those adorable pups your heart melts and there is a bond, instant. how could anyone resist such a beautiful looking sweet creature ('cause i agree he is just the cutest thing!!).

But, (and it is a big but for me), this is what makes it so hard. this is why there are code-names for these dogs, this is why states across Australia have endeavoured to ban the breed and breeding of these dogs. this is why it is illegal and impossible to bring a pitbull in or out of australia (even if they are your pet and you are moving OS); it's because, essentially the breed (not the individual dog per se) is classified dangerous.

many may argue that any dog can attack, and they are right. but following a similar logic (bear with me lol), any horse can run, but only a thoroughbred can win ITMS. with a pitbull, their capacity to cause serious damage or death is just too real.

I would hate, hate to be in your position and in all honesty, i would be in tears. this is a very real decision that you guys have got to make and by far a really really awful one.

but for me the saying "where there's doubt, there's no doubt" would have to ring true, and I would be calling my dog's vet to discuss euthanisation. but far out, that would be so hard. can you talk to your vet about this at all? are there any options for dogs such as these to be rehomed in appropriate settings (TBH, i wouldnt really know what an appropriate setting would be, sorry).

FWIW, we faced a similar situation when we went in search of a pup to bring into our family. we too came across a litter of red nose pitty crosses. they were just the most beautiful, wrinkly bundles of puppy love. i sat in that room with them caboodling all around and being just gorgeous with that puppy smell. DH and I decided to not make any decision on that day and i can now say that i am forever thankful. as you know a dog is a life long commitment of love and all that love brings (hardship, joy, tears and laughter), and with that you want to have a companion. a creature that you will never need to defend, or defend against, you want to be able to share this life long journey together as mates; not always looking over your shoulder wondering "what if". and honestly, with a pit bull it would be a travesty to not question that on a daily/hourly/minute by minute basis.

i dont know the ins and outs of the recent case here in melbourne, but from what i have read, this dog was simply a dog (not guard dog etc etc), there were no complaints about the behaviour of the dog and in the 3 years that it lived there no one even really saw it. these owners for 3 years were able to keep the dog and others out of harms way, and yet, in a split moment, all that changed forever and lives have been lost.

for me, that would be too much to bear.

i wish you all the love and support as you try to make this decision. you know where i stand on this, and i am sorry for saying it

[bec293]

wow what a difficult position to be in. I'm sorry I don't have any advice, but I do wonder if the owners of the dog which killed the four year old girl had thought that their dog was placid and well behaved, or if they were aware of any previous behavioural problems.

[Mel_B1981]

(editted to add, I have not read all the posts in this thread)

I am a strong believer that it is the owner that makes the dog, not the dog.

If you raise a dog with kindness, they return the favour....if you abuse it, of course it's going to be vicious.

We have alaskan malamutes, a breed known for eating cats....and I'm a registered cat breeder. We have had up to 30 cats and kittens in the house...and our dogs protect the cats...even from each other.

My most favourite memory is a 4 week old kitten climbing out of the box from Mum, Mum crying, and my big tough 'gonna eat you' Alaskan malamute picking the kitten up and putting it back with mum. I tell you I've never moved so fast in my life cause I thought he was going to eat the kitten....but it was such a surprise to pick the kitten up and find not a single mark on it...and Mum was glad of the assistance too cause she licked the dog as he put the bub back with her.

[Miss.September]

I've been thinking about this thread all day. Reet, if this was happening to someone you knew, if this was someone else's dog, what advice would you give them? Sometimes that helps make our own answer clear

[peanutter]

... one thing that stands out to me is the many comments seem to relate to the personality of the dog, and its upbringing ...

but it occurs to me that if your son or daughter - or your niece, your friend's kid, your grandpa, the little boy down the street, whatever - got mauled, killed or even just badly frightened by a pit bull attack, would you really care less whether it was an out of character event?

Would the fact that it had never escaped its yard previously, had never bitten anyone before, and had never startled a fly even come on the radar?

Or would you be furious that someone had knowingly kept a large, heavy, potentially lethal animal somewhere where it could - and did - get to your child.

Having found out yesterday that a colleague is a friend of the family who have lost their 4 year old daughter, I'm feeling more set in my opinions now.

It might never happen to you - and I hope it doesn't - but it sounds like an enormous gamble.

I feel sorry for the dogs who have been bred and sold illegally, it's not fair on them - or their owners - to be in the position lots of them will be in now.

But in my honest opinion, that all pales completely when set against the families who have lost someone because of one of those dogs, through no fault of their own.

[Asparagus and Lemons]

Is there a statistic about what percentage of pitbulls have attacked and how many dog attacks are due to pitbulls?
I think that would be interesting to know and should help this question be answered, but of course, most pitbulls are illegal so wouldnt be included in the statistic.
Our dogs never come inside, that's why I feel like wer are safe, but I guess there is always a chance of them escaping so there's always possibility they will hutt someone else, but I'm not getting rid of them because of that chance. I just ensure I always shut and lock the gate.
Last week one escaped out of the lead while I was walking her and she chased an old lady in a motorised wheelchair. Thankfully she came back to me, but I don't know what I would have done I'd she attacked. How scary that would have been!

I would not trust cats though, they have been known to smother babies. They also can not be contained unless they are locked indoors or an enclosure. So what if a neighbour had a baby laying on the ground outside and your cat smothered it to death?
I would never trust a cat with a newborn. How many of you are telling her to get rid of it when you have a dangerous cat that could potentially harm a child too?

[meow]

Are you serious??

A baby lying around outside,unsupervised for long enough for a cat decide it looks like a good thing to lie on is a risk to not own a cat? That's nonsense. Cats smother babies because they like to lie in the bed (cot/rocker etc) that the baby sleeps in and if the baby is there they will jsut lie on them. Pretty easy to avoid.

A strong dog that chases people down is a WHOLE other matter.