Do Japanese Women Eat Sushi, Do French Women Eat Soft Cheese/Pate

[paradise lost]

To answer the original question, yes and yes. Japanese women eat sushi and French women (in fact most mainland Europeans) eat soft cheeses, while pregnant.

The issue with fish is that LONG-LIVED fish - tuna, marlin, swordfish, shark - can have higher mercury levels in their flesh - for pregnant women the advice is the same as for everyone else - do not eat more than 2 portions of long-lived sea-fish a week. Not eating ANY fish during pregnancy can be quite dangerous if you're used to eating it because you need good sources of iodine for thyroid function in you and bubs and omega 3 fatty acids in higher amounts during pregnancy to help bubs brain develop. These things can be gotten elsewhere (iodised table salt for iodine, certain nuts and seeds for omega-3's) but if you usually get them through fish and are opting to have NO fish you need to replace them.

I don't have figures on listeria-related foetal damage or demise in France but i assure you the the French government, like MOST governments, has a public health department which acts on risk to ensure the people are safe, and they have NOT found it necessary to advise their women to avoid soft cheese.

I did not avoid anything i fancied during pregnancy except alcohol (had an immense liking for champagne at a champagne breakfast when i was 12 weeks, drank one fingerswidth of a flute to quell it, and stopped there, though it tasted so good to me, i could have had 3 glasses!). I craved sushi and i ate mountains of it, 2 or 3 packs at a time 2-6 times a week from the 11th week to the 41st. The outcome? I have a really smart child who likes fish, but that might not have been the sushi. I didn't have tuna or swordfish sushi and stuck to short-lived fish and shellfish varieties, and i tended to stick to a few supermarkets and one restaurant i trusted, but ocasionally the craving hit and i just ate the nearest sushi! I especially enjoyed raw salmon, and i still do - i will buy filets and eat the trimmings right off the raw pieces! Mmmm, just the thought!

If i'd craved vodka or coal or petrol i'd have been more careful about it, but i trust my body, i don't believe it would demand something so insistently that it didn't need, and i don't think depriving a pregnant body of something it clearly needs is wise at all.

Bx

[Shanti]

Mmmmmm Maz! Metwurst, I love Metwurst.... I walk past it in the aisle at woolies and dreewwwl! I cant' wait to buy some when i'm not PG! that stuff is the best!

I've been eating salami but ONLY when piping hot served on pizza like last night

[fionas]

Thanks Bec - the thing that 'gets' me I suppose when I think about this is that it would only take one stroke of bad luck to end up with listeria BUT at the same time, in my 39 years on the planet, I've never had listeria. So the chances of getting it if I ate the same food from the same places when non-pregnant would not actually be any higher.

Or is it possible to get listeria without actually knowing it? So maybe I'm wrong to be a bit blase about it because I could have had it multiple times without knowing?

BTW, I am NOT trying to launch an argument that everyone should be less vigilant and trying to persuade everyone to stuff themselves full of sushi and soft cheese, I'm just interested in the facts and in what other countries recommend and why.

[nelly]

I was careful first pg but both that pg and this one I have been told by midwife and ob that they give these blanket "rules" because some people just don't check the finer print. eg Pg women can have soft cheese as long as they are pasteurised and have been handled through the cold chain efficiently. Sushi is fine as long as it is from a reputable place (safe food handling) and you don't eat a lot of the long living mercury accumulating fish.

I guess everything in moderation and as someone said earlier - follow your gut instinct.

Remember that song - "fish, chips and chikko rolls, tomato sauce and sausage rolls"... I wonder if in other countries thay are told don't eat meat pies, chikko rolls and sausage rolls and those women think I wonder if Australians still eat their meat pies and sausage rolls...

[~Raven~]

but by the same token, many of the "rules" weren't around when our mothers and grandmothers were pregnant and most of us turned out just fine!

Of course you turned out fine as did I, but how many losses may have happened due to listeria or other bugs.
Guess in those days though a miscarriage was shrugged off as God's will and they had no way of figuring out what caused it to happen.

[Toomanytoomany]

When I had my first daughter twenty years ago, there was much less information about what was dangerous to eat. The "rules" on alcohol have changed, also. Research happens, findings are made, and women are informed of the risks - they can choose to take those risks, or not, I guess.

Australia has an enviable perinatal and infant mortality rate - though not, shamefully, in our indigenous population - and much of that is due to good prenatal care and information. While the listeria risk is sometimes overblown (it's actually quite uncommon) it is real, and we benefit from knowing that risk. I guess we have to ask ourselves if taking the risk is worth that sushi roll or not. Reye's syndrome is an extremely rare response to aspirin, but there are still very few of us who would give our children aspirin for a fever when paracetamol is available.

Some of us will not take the risk, some of us will - it's not silly to inform women of the risk, nor is it silly to decide not to take the risk, when there are so many alternatives. People in Australia eat a lot of pre-prepared food that has been sitting around in delis and supermarkets for a long time. People in provincial France eating raw cheeses may well be eating the produce of animals around whom they have been for many years and may be immune to all their bugs anyway. And their food may be a lot fresher, even if it is not pasteurised. (All cheese in Australia must be pasteurised, I believe.)

Similarly with alcohol, research in the last five years or so has revealed that there is no reliably safe level of alcohol consumption in pregnancy, whereas it was once believed that one or two glasses here and there was no problem. Again, you can choose to roll that dice, or just abstain for a while. Sure, many people drank during pregnancy and many babies were fine, but we don't use that line for motor vehicle restraints - so by all means be confident about taking calculated risks, but they *are* risks.

It's up to each woman to decide, but I don't see that ignorance is bliss, not when the chance of ignorance is miscarriage or stillbirth. We need to make informed decisions and be confident in them. There are no guarantees either way and it is just risk management, not thwarting a definite hazard every time we try to avoid a risk.

[Toomanytoomany]

Or is it possible to get listeria without actually knowing it? So maybe I'm wrong to be a bit blase about it because I could have had it multiple times without knowing?

Yes, it is quite possible to be exposed and asymptomatic. Pregnant women and their babies are particularly vulnerable, as are the elderly, very small children and the immunosuppressed.

[bubNo.2]

HI

I just read this thread and thought mmm my sister and her husband should read and then they may stop expecting everyone to follow the rules....
Im a nurse and i knew that it was a 'blanket' type rule with the listeria thing and that cheeses are all pasturized before consumption here in australia. BUt when i was pregnant this time last year ... god forbid i had a cooked fresh prawn and a bit of brie and both my sister (who was pregnant) and her husband totally had a heart attack and couldnt believe 'as a nurse i could eat such things' I just replied with you do your thing and ill do mine. Mind you my sister was knocking back the champers and i had none! So yes im with whoever said if you eat in moderation and eat things that are fresh and havent been siiting outside in the sun for hours etc etc you should be fine.
That women who sadly lost her bub at 31wks ... i think that was terrible how the medical staff said 'oh it must have been a listeria thing... ' Why cant they get the bub delivered, do the test first, and then if it is a bacteria infection (food related) then tell the mother....
BTW my Alistair delivered at 37 weeks from LMP was absolutely fine....and i did have wine on occassions as well! But obviously didnt get smashed !

BubNo.2

[mrsmac]

The other night we went out for our work Christmas party and one of the pg women was eating raw oysters, i thought the other pg woman there was going to have a heart attack in front of me LOL

[Shanti]

The other night we went out for our work Christmas party and one of the pg women was eating raw oysters, i thought the other pg woman there was going to have a heart attack in front of me LOL

OMG.... that's playing with fire.

I luuuuuurve natural oysters but noooo way would i eat one whilst PG.

[Inanna]

I haven't read all of the posts yet but feel really compelled to reply to what I have read!

Listeria poisoning in pregnancy exists - it isn't some trick of the authorities to make eating choices difficult for pregnant women.

It is not a fallacy - having witnessed deaths of babies inutero from listeria and having contact with 2 other women who have lost their beloved babies thru this bacteria - let me assure you of this reality.

It is YOUR choice what you eat when you are pregnant. A likely outcome if you contract Listeria is the death of your baby inutero. So, be informed, make an decision based on the knowledge that we have.

Is it likely that you will contract listeria if you do not follow the guidelines? It's not likely but you are more likely to than someone who does eat "safely".

Listeria is found frequently in soft serve ice cream (even Maccas), soft cheeses like brie, fetta and camembert, rice that has been cooked, stored and cooled. Pre made salads. 6 out of 10 fridges randomly tested on an current affair show (cannot remember which one) had listeria present in the salads & other foods contained in the fridges.

Should you be paranoid? NO! As I have said before if you are sensible it's highly unlikely you will contract listeria. Wash salads well before preparing. Do not store uncooked rice in your fridge for later use. Wash your hands well etc etc.

Your body your choice but for those that think these are "rules" and restrictions put upon you by the pregnancy police - politely I ask you to think again. There were unexplained still births through the millenia - now all stillborn babies and their Mamas are tested for listeria as it's a known cause.

It's great if you have a "healthy and developmentally normal" child and ate "at risk" foods. Again clearly you most likely did not come in contact with listeria contamination during pregnancy if you had a live baby. The most likely outcome of Listeria contamination is foetal death - not developmental delays...

There are many women who have lost babies due to listeria and other reasons that now have a way to be avoided.

Is avoidance of certain foods for 9 months really such a drama??? I have been pregnant 12 times and frankly saw it as just what I did to give my baby the best chance - not a ball and chain.

Listeria loves a cool environment - refrigeration DOES NOT kill listeria. Heat does. Pasteurization heats the food & would kill the listeria at the point of pasteruization (if it were contaminated) but then the listeria bacteria can grow in the food once it is cooled in refrigeration.. Listeria favours foods with a certain ph.

[Inanna]

Listeria does not distinguish between pateruized and unpasteurized food.

I agree each to their own - but be informed - fully informed and educated then make your decision.

I kinda think it's like those stories.... "My great uncle Bob lived to 105 and smoked three packs of ciggies, drank a bottle of bourban a day and ate lard... Yep some people can survive it but doing that makes it more likely that you will run into strife...

[Inanna]

I have just read the whole thread...

As Tootoomany said Listeria can be asymptomatic - that is what makes it quite dangerous - you don't necessarily know you have been eating contaminated food.

Someone mentioned "food laying around in the sun". You won't get Listeria from that my loves... But you could get a whole pile of other stuff.

Someone was commenting on hospital staff when Judy lost her baby... This is done for good reason - because stillbirths often occur as a result of asymptomatic listeria contamination. It is not said as a blame thing - it is said as a possibility. Therefore what you have eaten is investigated. Trust me you want to know all possibilities when it is you wanting answers - I know I did. I was tested rigorously for Listeria after all of my losses. Contracted early Listeria can cause miscarriage. I am not sure how Jude felt about this being investigated - but for me it at least gave me a possibility.

It is now well documented that there is no 'safe" consumption of alcohol during pregnancy. Again, as TTM said - it's up to you if you want to take those chances and those risks. I feel tho it's important to state that it is known tht there is a risk attatched - however small that may seem to some.

[storm]

Pregnant life would be so much easier if the Ob's or M/W's gave us a list of what was safe & what wasn't.
I often want a hotdog & think, well if it were that bad the Ob would say so

[angelicdragon]

Deb that is so true. At that time you want to know why your baby has died when everything seems to be ok. You want to know there is a reason for it even if it is something you ate, at least it is a reason and not a big unknown.
I know down here in Hobart at your very first OB visit we get a list of listeria prone foods. plus you can also go online to any search engine and type in listeria and pregnancy and you can get a list from any of those sites.
thank you Deb.

hugs
Jude