I am time poor atm so haven't time to google but I would be very interested also...
Slyder I have co slept with all of my children & I always have at least one in my bed every night. I personally have never come near to rolling onto my child/baby... I hear that it happens but I do wonder about the circumstances as it's just this knowing that they are there yk?
Yes SIDS has been linked to vaccines
Agreed Inanna. This particular case has a lot of "other" factors, but as someone considering all these different options (as a potential first time parent) it all weighs on your mind!
It sure does weigh on your mind - it did on mine too - even after doing it 5 times. I think it's always there as a safety factor... It was a scary thought to me but after my first was born I took her to bed as it just seemed natural... and she stayed for a number of years! Then the next was the same and so on...
I think every parent has to do what "feels" right for them. It's important to feel okay with whatever it is you do & also knowing that it's okay if what is right for you isn't so natural for another...
You'll be a great Dad co sleeping or not!
Registered User
This is a subject that weighs very heavily on my mind as two years back my sister lost her baby daughter to SIDS.
She didnt co sleep (eta: ) She was concurrent grand multi-parous. The baby was vaccinated the day before. The crib and mattress were brand spanking new. So at no point in time was the baby exposed to the toxic gasses from mouldy mattresses. She did absolutely everything by the book. If the guidelines said do it this way, she did it that way. Every single time.
On the genetic pre-disposition, it is possible. Africans are twice as susceptible to SIDS, and Native Americans - which I am half of - are three times more susceptible. These two cultures are far more hands on then standard western convention and yet are at more risk just because of genetics.
I don't feel that just because someone has an idea that hasn't been clinically disproven that we should just pack up shop and hope it works.
One day we will see an end to SIDS. But until we actually do, lets not cut off our noses to spite our face in regard to research funding.
Last edited by Inertia; February 23rd, 2010 at 01:14 PM.
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It's really hard you know, i mean there are ppl that have co-slept with there babies successfully and then there are others that have rolled onto them and well lets say the rest is history.
You really need to do what is right for you and your family because there are pro's and con's for both sides and there is never 100% reassurance that something isn't going to happen. All you can do is follow your instincts and do what you feel is right at the time.. that's all we can do as parents!
Ooppps my post was a bit behind...i missed a whole page!
I am finding this really interesting to read though...so please keep going!!
Last edited by DANNIIM; February 23rd, 2010 at 03:02 PM. : more to add
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Very true
I am wondering though - if a parent rolls onto their child and they suffocate or they go under blankets - why is that sids? To me; that is a known cause of death. Prehaps to avoid legal obligations it comes under sids??
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Reply to SIDS & Toxicity
Bending Reality - firstly I want to wish to offer my sympathy for the loss of your sisters baby.
I couldn't help but notice that you mentioned that she died the day after vaccination. I have spoken to another parent to whom this same scenario has occurred. I'm not sure what your thoughts are on that, its a very touchy topic, but the link between vaccination and SIDS is something which is covered in the book.
Firstly, I wanted to say that I actually agree with you re: the mattress thing- and the book does not claim that toxic offgases from flame retardant chemicals in baby mattresses is the sole cause of SIDS. It simply explains why it is a major factor for a percentage of SIDS deaths, as well as the interaction between this source of toxicity and other sources of toxicity. The toxicity comes from various sources - and as Peg has stated, vaccines are a large form of that due to many of the toxic ingredients in them. Another major factor is the childs individual constitution and immune strength, and the fact that babies born premature (before 38 weeks), low weight babies, and those with pre-existing health conditions die more frequently from SIDS - their bodies and immune systems are not as readily equipped to deal with the toxicity exposure.
For anyone interested, below is a response to the off-gas toxic mattress theory on Dr Mercola's website by a woman who researches the link between vaccines and SIDS:
A Response to the Toxic Gas Theory of SIDS
Posted by: Dr. Mercola
November 19 2000 | 2,845 views
Comments by Dawn Winkler
Note: This was written in response to a previous article entitled Victory Over SIDS that appeared in the November 5, 2000 edition of the newsletter.
I am very familiar with Dr. Sprott and the BabeSafe mattress wrap, but I am compelled to differ with him somewhat on his toxic gas SIDS theory, based on my 5 years of research. This research has led me to believe that in many instances, it is the vaccine that causes SIDS. I don't doubt that some deaths are brought on by gases created by circumstances stemming from crib mattresses and other sources. I also don't discount that some infants die, who are unvaccinated, from a basic immaturity. This same immaturity can be brought on or exacerbated by vaccination, such as with demyelination or delayed myelination.
Of course, premature infants will be even more immature and are much more likely to die of SIDS. I am bringing this to your attention because I feel that it is imperative that parents are not led to believe that vaccination does not play a significant role in SIDS. Therefore, I'm not sure that BabeSafe is the answer; maybe it is and maybe not. But I know that not vaccinating lowers the risk.
I've spoken with many parents whose children died face up on all kinds of surfaces other than crib mattresses, some even in their mother's arms. They all tell the same story - Their child was not the same from the time they were vaccinated until they died. They started sleeping more, they wouldn't eat, they had a high-pitched scream, etc. Some even had trouble breathing. These are classic vaccine reactions. Some parents were "lucky" enough (for lack of a better word) to have medical examiners with experience and honesty who documented the truth and actually put "encephalopathy" and other classic pathological evidence of vaccine damage in the autopsy report.
The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has even compensated 93 families whose infants' deaths were labeled SIDS because the parent had the evidence in the autopsy to prove the vaccine caused it. Yet, the cause of death listing as "SIDS" was never changed on the death certificates of these 93 babies. This information comes from the Freedom of Information Office.
Studies show that SIDS babies have a significant degree of delayed myelination compared to controls (infants who died of known causes). They also have significantly lower levels of creatine kinase in almost every region of their brain. Creatine kinase is critical for heart function, production of ATP, breathing, blood pressure, and plays a critical role in the pathogenesis of hypoxia. Delayed myelination or demyelination is most likely affecting creatine kinase levels. We know that vaccination can CAUSE demyelination as well as delayed myelination. In fact, SIDS infants may possess even antibodies to myelin basic protein, although no one has checked to my knowledge. Studies have shown that children who have become autistic after their MMR vaccine have tested positive for antibodies to myelin basic protein. I'm not saying all SIDS cases are vaccine related, but I'd stake my life on the claim that 60% or more are. I'm actually writing a book on this very subject presently.
Here are a few points of interest, but this is just the "tip of the iceberg":
*
Of 297 death claims filed with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) with SIDS listed as cause of death, 93 have been compensated up to $250,000 because the court felt that the death was really vaccine induced. 28 have not been adjudicated at this point; the remaining 176 were thrown out.
*
Of 471 Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) death reports covering a 4 year period, roughly 60% have the term "SIDS" somewhere in the report along with descriptions like "high pitched screaming from time vaccinated until death".
*
"These SIDS deaths were significantly more than expected were there no association between DTP immunization and SIDS. These deaths were also significantly more than expected. These data suggest a temporal association between DTP immunization, physician visits without DTP immunization and SIDS." (Pediatric Infectious Disease - "Possible temporal association between diphtheria-tetanus-toxoid-pertussis vaccination and sudden infant death syndrome" , Larry J. Baraff, MD, et. al. Vol2, No 1, 1983 p7-11)
*
" ... we found the SIDS mortality rate in the period zero to three days following DTP to be 7.3 times that in the period beginning 30 days after immunization." (From American Journal of Public Health - "Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis Immunization and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome", Alexander M. Walker, MD, et. al., Vol77, No 8, 1987 p945-950.
*
"Causality between DPT, NMS, and SIDS is indicated by the brief intervals, atypical age for SIDS or NMS in some, similar SIDS pathology and symptoms in DPT postvaccinal deaths in the literature, reports of DPT-triggered apnea by Shannon, and experimental SIDS animal models by Steinman and Torch (1985)". (From Neurology - "Diphtheria-Pertussis-Tetanus (DPT) May Be an Unrecognized Cause of Sudden Infant Death (SIDS) and Near-miss Syndrome (NMS): 12 Case Reports", William C. Torch, April 1986, p149)
*
Viera Schiebner, Ph.D. found that all infants experience shallow and/or stressed breathing for up to 30 days following vaccination. She used a unique monitor developed by her husband, a bio-medical engineer that measures breathing. Neither of them suspected vaccines as a cause of SIDS when they began their research, but the evidence was too significant to ignore. Certain days (48 hours, 5-7 days, day 16, and day 24) showed extremely shallow breathing for all infants. These days just happen to correspond with Larry Baraff's study (cited above), he showed certain days to have increased risk for SIDS and he admitted he didn't understand why. (see article on this topic)
* Three unrelated respiratory therapists were interviewed by phone and confided that they warn parents using apnea monitors in non-apneic children to expect more frequent apnea alarms in the few days following vaccination.
As much as I'd like to believe that BabeSafe would save every child from SIDS, one case in particular stands out in my mind. I have become good friends with the mother of a 17-month old girl who died the night of her MMR, Hib, and DPT vaccines. The child had been walking, talking, the whole nine yards. She happened to be a little ill, coming off of antibiotics. She received all three shots (for 7 different diseases) and died during that same night. The pathology in this case is so undeniable, so clear, that I just can't believe that had she been sleeping on a BabeSafe product it would have saved her. This baby girl died from blatant encephalopathy that was clearly vaccine caused. Still, the autopsy report concluded that the cause of death was "unknown" despite the documented encephalopathy.
Her mother filed a claim with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program seven years ago and is finally going to be compensated with the next few months. This is not an isolated instance. I deal with parents like this all the time. Her case just stands out because the child was so much older than typical SIDS cases.
I am not against Dr. Sprott or BabeSafe. I only wish to add this information for a more complete picture.
Sincerely, Dawn Winkler
former Vice President, Concerned Parents for Vaccine Safety
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where can i get a copy of this book, i think it will be good for DH to read too
Registered User
I bought the book off Amazon - only $19.99 including shipping.
I have seen it on an Aussie site called Booktopia. Very affordable for this sort of information IMO! Cheaper than a trip to the docs!
XX
Last edited by JellyBean; February 23rd, 2010 at 03:46 PM. : spelling
Registered User
FWIW, as a firefighter who wouldn't go near a burning mattress, new or old, without breathing apparatus, I use latex and wool mattresses for our beds!
Registered User
Kirley, I have wondered the same thing. However, knowing what I now know, it doesn't surprise me that the medical establishment would group suffocation with SIDS to deter parents from research linking the mysterious sudden infant death with more likely causes that are toxicity related.Very true
I am wondering though - if a parent rolls onto their child and they suffocate or they go under blankets - why is that sids? To me; that is a known cause of death. Prehaps to avoid legal obligations it comes under sids??
Last edited by JellyBean; February 23rd, 2010 at 03:51 PM.
Registered User
Sids book etc
No- not at all. I'm all for the greater mysteries of life (really!). However in this particular instance, having read the research from various sources, it is my belief that the information we are getting from mainstream sids organisations does not add up (or at least - leaves a lot to be desired), and this book helps to provide parents with another rather large peice of the puzzle which not only makes alot of sense, but is based on findings from studies published in peer reviewed medical journals - the same very sources that these organisations derive their research findings. The question is, why are they being so selective as to which sections of the research they choose to promote, and those they choose to ignore? Research is research. Why sections of the medical community (not all charities dedicated to SIDS - of course supporting parents with their grief is an admirable thing) choose to downplay these findings is what is being questioned here - and we do not really know the answer, one can only assume there is some advantageous reason for doing so. Perhaps not directly advantageous for the SIDS organisations themselves, but perhaps for various other related fields of medicine whom they may be answerable to.
For example, when research has pointed to smoking and formula as variables linked to increased sudden infant death, these findings have been reported. However when studies have linked vaccines with sids, the findings are repudiated and ignored. This hardly seems fair to parents who put trust in these organisations to report all potential risk factors.
Can I also say that it is not just a matter of mainstream medicine vs some other hippy alternative health group. There are numerous medical doctors, pediatricians, toxicologists, pathologists, courts of law etc who have helped to complete this picture. Consider the following for examples. (Note that I cannot provide the link because its a bb violation):
*
The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has even compensated 93 families whose infants' deaths were labeled SIDS because the parent had the evidence in the autopsy to prove the vaccine caused it. Yet, the cause of death listing as "SIDS" was never changed on the death certificates of these 93 babies. This information comes from the Freedom of Information Office.
*
Of 297 death claims filed with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) with SIDS listed as cause of death, 93 have been compensated up to $250,000 because the court felt that the death was really vaccine induced. 28 have not been adjudicated at this point; the remaining 176 were thrown out.
*
Of 471 Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) death reports covering a 4 year period, roughly 60% have the term "SIDS" somewhere in the report along with descriptions like "high pitched screaming from time vaccinated until death".
*
"These SIDS deaths were significantly more than expected were there no association between DTP immunization and SIDS. These deaths were also significantly more than expected. These data suggest a temporal association between DTP immunization, physician visits without DTP immunization and SIDS." (Pediatric Infectious Disease - "Possible temporal association between diphtheria-tetanus-toxoid-pertussis vaccination and sudden infant death syndrome" , Larry J. Baraff, MD, et. al. Vol2, No 1, 1983 p7-11)
*
" ... we found the SIDS mortality rate in the period zero to three days following DTP to be 7.3 times that in the period beginning 30 days after immunization." (From American Journal of Public Health - "Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis Immunization and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome", Alexander M. Walker, MD, et. al., Vol77, No 8, 1987 p945-950.
Raymond Obomsawin, M.D. - "Delay of DPT immunisation until 2 years of age in Japan has resulted in a dramatic decline in adverse side effects. In the period of 1970-1974, when DPT vaccination was begun at 3 to 5 months of age, the Japanese national compensation system paid out claims for 57 permanent severe damage vaccine cases, and 37 deaths. During the ensuing six year period 1975-1980, when DPT injections were delayed to 24 months of age, severe reactions from the vaccine were reduced to a total of eight with three deaths. This represents an 85 to 90 percent reduction in severe cases of damage and death."
*
"Causality between DPT, NMS, and SIDS is indicated by the brief intervals, atypical age for SIDS or NMS in some, similar SIDS pathology and symptoms in DPT postvaccinal deaths in the literature, reports of DPT-triggered apnea by Shannon, and experimental SIDS animal models by Steinman and Torch (1985)". (From Neurology - "Diphtheria-Pertussis-Tetanus (DPT) May Be an Unrecognized Cause of Sudden Infant Death (SIDS) and Near-miss Syndrome (NMS): 12 Case Reports", William C. Torch, April 1986, p149)
*
Viera Schiebner, Ph.D. found that all infants experience shallow and/or stressed breathing for up to 30 days following vaccination. She used a unique monitor developed by her husband, a bio-medical engineer that measures breathing. Neither of them suspected vaccines as a cause of SIDS when they began their research, but the evidence was too significant to ignore. Certain days (48 hours, 5-7 days, day 16, and day 24) showed extremely shallow breathing for all infants. These days just happen to correspond with Larry Baraff's study (cited above), he showed certain days to have increased risk for SIDS and he admitted he didn't understand why. (see article on this topic)
* Three unrelated respiratory therapists were interviewed by phone and confided that they warn parents using apnea monitors in non-apneic children to expect more frequent apnea alarms in the few days following vaccination.
In 1985 Dr. Scheibner, a former principle research scientist for the government of Australia, and her husband electrochemical engineer Leif Karlsson invented the CotWatch breathing monitor for babies who are diagnosed “at risk” for SIDS, or “Cot Death” as it is known in Australia. Over the next three years, the couple monitored hundreds of babies and studied the event reports that their CotWatch produced. “By 1988 we knew that vaccines are killing babies,” said Dr. Scheibner Ph.D.
There is alot more of this stuff out there but you really need to seek it out for yourself. If you stick to mainstream sids info you will not find it - thats all I'm saying. The book also covers other potential forms of toxicity, (not just from flame retardant chemicals in mattresses and vaccines), and the interaction that various other factors (lowered immunity, nutrient deficiencies, premature birth, antibiotics, alcohol use etc) have with these forms of toxicity. The way that all these factors are explained to inter-relate is part of what makes it so sense-forming.
The book doesn't bag sids organisations either - that is not its purpose. It simply leaves the reader a little perplexed as to the nature of various parties behind them.
Its not a crime to go against the grain and question what you are told. In the past many truths have been denied before they have been accepted as truth. At the end of the day, its just you and your baby - and we all want to do what we can, and know whatever we can - even if the sources of our information contradict one another, it doesn't matter. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between.....
Last edited by JellyBean; February 24th, 2010 at 11:30 AM.
BellyBelly Member
Not all research is good research or reliable research. How studies obtain results and what kinds of control they use to find those results can have a huge impact on findings. I imagine that is why not all 'research' conducted in these fields is published. SIDS is a very difficult issue for many families and I think SIDS organisations are being careful not to lead parents into a false sense of security by claimig that they have the answers. I think reasons behind why research is conducted and biases that researchers place on their research also have a huge impact on results. I think the SIDS advice that we are given is based on research that has constistently stacked up across the board where the methods and controls used to find these results are sound.
I completely agree. However, I think it is also important to note that following mainstream research and ideas does not mean that a person hasn't thought about it either. I think it is important to critically analyse all information that we are given and sometimes the end result does point back to the mainstream research.
BTW - good thread! I think it is important to talk about these issues and discuss different points of views. After all, we are all here to learn, share ideas, question what we are told and educate each other. Thanks for posting it
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The thing is, people don't co-sleep despite a desire to do so because of the naysayers who say it will either kill their babies or that it creates dependent children ( like they aren't already dependents and as if they'll stay that way forever...DS still comes in with us and you couldn't get a more independently thinking 3.5yo!). How can you come to a proper conclusion about how you feel about co-sleeping when there is misinformation about it and a lot of 'authority' about safety standards for baby equipment like cots, prams and other 'mummy replacements'?I don't think anyone should co-sleep or not co-sleep because of what others say, you have to do what you are most comfortable with.
SIDS is a Western phenomenon (as with depression and some other symptomology we assume are universal), so what's missing from or what's present in ours that can help us beat it?
I won't pretend to in any way know very much about SIDS research. I too have been touched by SIDS. Personally & professionally.
As for exposure to environmental toxins (such as formaldehyde) being detectable during post mortem I would highly suspect that this isn't the case. In my personal experience with my own ill health & the suspected trigger being the formaldehyde it is exposure that in "some" people that will cause a response.
For example some of you may be familiar with the contention around the foaming agent SLS... Sodium Laurel Sulphate has a few differing names and sources. Essentially it still has a similar outcome/reaction. It foams and we know it is a "known" carcinogen... So, we also know that many additives are carcinogenic. Burnt chops are thought to be... So, we all know we have exposure on some level to "known environmental toxins & some of these toxins are known carcinogens. Formaldehyde, sodium laureth sulphate, parabens, some sweetners to list a mere speck in the ocean.
So, just walk with me a while. The above is proven. Its factual. We get away with them as additives to our products and food as they are under the legal limit. Or the limit that we know as toxic. For example vitamin A is toxic to pregnancy... So, it's not "allowed" to be included in prenatal vitamins over a particular level... But if you eat a lot of vitamin A rich foods, take a supplement, perhaps eat supplemented bread, juice & milk you "may" reach that upper level of toxic to pregnancy... Yeah? Are you with me still...?
So back to my arch rival SLS... You get up in the morning and do your wee... Flush your loo and perhaps you have blue loo or ambi pur flushy thing in the toilet... You get your first dose of SLE. You wash your hands and get another dose... You open your dishwasher to get out your favourite mug and get another dose from the fumes of the detergent... Also when you drink your tea you get another dose... While the tea steeps you turn on your shower. The hot water hits the residue of the cleaner you used to wash your shower and another dose hits you... Then you step in and apply shampoo to your hair - another dose - much larger this time and over a large body surface. Then the soap... Then you get out and apply some toxic underarm deodorant and moisturiser all containing formaldehyde as well...
You dress and the SLE from the washing powder seeps slowly into your body... All of this and you have only been awake 15 minutes...
Do you see that we are awash with toxicity unless and only if a conscious choice is made to reduce toxic substances in your home and environment...
I am a little bit lost as to some of the arguments against the issues that JB has brought up from her reading. And whilst I am at it kudos to you Jellybean for being so level & able to accept differences in opinion without getting antsy. I feel just like you. If one life can be saved because an idea or a theory is shared then to me that's a valuable post!
I can't support any "feeling" tjhat it's not a very long bow to draw that just maybe our babies are exposed to so much toxicity that some of their little bodies just can't handle it... But my gut tells me there is a very very big part to play in this and the incidents of un explained infant deaths and the high rate of autoimmune disorders in our western cultures.
We bath babies in Johnson and Johnson cos it smells cute - but it's actually a ****tail of chemicals that smell good to some... We feed them formulas that are concocted in a laboratory, we feed them products in plastic packaged as good choices, teats that are synthetic and also emit gases... Clothing that is washed in more toxic substances... We wash our floors with more and those are inhalded by our little ones. Then we put them on a mattress that emits these toxins. We all know the toxicity of a burning mattress! Have you ever smelt one??? OMG you just can't cope with it... So when it's heated it becomes more toxic - as is often the case with chemical reactions. The sheets are washed in chemicals. People wash their babies in chemicals, feed them chemicals, paint their rooms with chemicals, rub their bodies with chemicals, furnish their rooms with more chemicals.
It is really little wonder to me that we have such high death rates. It also makes sense that when a baby is lying face down on this they will be exposed even more due to the proximity of the nose to the surface...
Babies lie on their bellies in all cultures - but they all don't risk death. Like another poster I eliminated all that I could possibly eliminate from my environment. Because SiDS sxares the crap out of me. It was never just a little fear in the back of my mind. it was real and burdening.
Its not popular to hold views such as mine. For others find it confronting or critical of themselves. That is so far from the truth. Nobody of sound mind does anything to place their beloved in danger - it's just that we have been conditioned to believe in the safety of J & J, of lux flakes, of nice fresh plastic mattresses, of fresh paint, fly spray.... "It never hurt me"... "My mum did it and hers before her - we're all fine"....
It's cool if that's how one sees life. Often it's not until you are faced with a crisis that you begin to ask questions. That the well trodden path seems a little foreign...
I think it's foolish to dismiss any opinion or research - just as I think it foolish to believe that one has all the answers.
I agree that it would be massive to discover that some of the answers of infant death lay in the bathrooms and bedrooms of the affected children. Imagine the cost involved of overhauling our whole method of manufacturing - at the least? It is not such a long bow to me that it would be a very very costly and much bucked idea...
It makes perfect sense as to why western babies have a better chance of survival if they lie on their backs on their toxic mattresses! or why a baby that comes from a home where especially they are exposed to second hand smoke (in clothing and furniture) that they are at heightened risk of fatality. Not again, a popular opinion but one I hold personally...
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I am not sure the status in Australia but I know in other countries like the US due to campaigning by SIDS groups, suffocation and being rolled onto are no longer categorised as SIDS or are separated out within the stats.Very true
I am wondering though - if a parent rolls onto their child and they suffocate or they go under blankets - why is that sids? To me; that is a known cause of death. Prehaps to avoid legal obligations it comes under sids??
"After years of lobbying the SIDS community has passed laws in almost every state requiring an autopsy and requiring first responders to identify the difference between SIDS, overlaying and abuse"
i co slept in hospital the midwives promoted it said as long as i had the buzzer near by and the rails were up i was ok to co sleep as yeah promotes better breast feeding
my son still on and off co sleeps with me and i find he sleeps alott better when im close or hes close by not half way up the house
i followed all the guidlines sids and kids had when i had my son and hes healthy
with the toxins i hated J And J and hardly used it my son was breastfed till he was 5 mnths then on formula i worry all the time about sids it can happen at any time same with adults but hey if they can tell us better without riddles what to avoid ill do it
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