Ultrasound. Are women so out of touch?

[Trillian]

That's why I don't think that it is that women are so out of tune to start with, but that they are told they MUST be out of tune. Like a whole "you don't have the training or years of experience that I do, so how could you possibly know?" kinda thing

[Nelle]

I know definitely my opinion is influenced by my experiences - I seriously was not in touch with my body, had no idea about cycle length or when ovulation happened. I had a textbook 28 day cycle, no period pain, so my body and reproductive system just weren't things I really thought about.

Obviously we gain knowledge and awareness as we experience more, but I think if I hadn't stumbled across BellyBelly it's very possible I'd be in the 'oh okay, well you must be right doctor' camp.
Like you say Trill, some of this has to do with confidence, but I reckon a bit has to do with ignorance as well. I didn't know my body, and wasn't really motivated to know my body (until I found BB). I can't really be the only one like this?

[Little Chicken]

With DD I had heaps of scans mainly because I taking part in a training program to teach rural GPs how to do simple obstetric ultrasounds. I had dating scan (which I needed, I had just finished the pill and this was the first cycle, plus I had breakthrough/implantation bleeding so my dates were 4 weeks behind), I was 9 weeks then. A scan at 11 weeks for the training program, the NT scan, 20 week scan, rescan at 24 weeks because they could not get a good view of the heart, scna at 27 weeks for the training, scan at 35 weeks for some bleeding, and scan at 37 weeks because of blood pressure issues. So eight scans in total. Won't be having anywhere near that many this time, only 2 barring any complications. But my sonographers with DD were ultimate professionals, lovely, lovely girls. Learnt a few things to like they don't like keeping the probe over the baby's ears for fear of damage, they wouldn't keep the probe over DD for very long at the early scans either "just in case". Also later inpregnancy when they use the long bones to determine gestation and growth, 1mm equals 1 weeks growth so not getting the measurement right could put you back by a week or more (but don't quote me on that!) I cannot reccommend the radiology department at King Edward Hospital in Perth highly enough.

I agree sometimes that dating scan is neccessary (look at me with DD), I was adamant I was only 5 weeks! This time I didn't have one and my dates (according to scan) were only a week out at the NT scan. But I did read the report and my original due date could still be right so who knows. I think it should be an individual decision and not a blanket everyone should have one scan.

Just remember no-one can force you to have any test/proceedure you don't want, and seriouly if that sonographer has nothing better to do then making women feel guilty and upset, tell him to wisen up! Oh, and make a complaint in writing they can't fob you off then.

[Persephone1]

I agree Nelle, most women don't know their bodies very well. But I think this is because we are very rarely educated about our bodies, or motivated to find out. There is no "fertility" education at school, it's sex education. Why should we know our bodies when medicine and technology can do the job for us - why use natural contraception when we can go on the Pill? Why trust our own dates when we have a sonograph machine? Got period pain? Take a panadol - don't look into possible hormonal or physical causes. It's very sad to think that the wisdom has to be searched for rather than provided, by our foremothers

[Trillian]

I don't think it is possible to ever truly know our bodies completely. I have had that many changes to the way my cycle is, the way my af is, the way my body reacts to af, that I no sooner 'know' it, before I have to get to know it all over again. So I don't think it is entirely ignorance either LOL. but I think ignorance could be masked as being you just not needing to know it at that time. When I'm not TTC I don't really need to know when I O. And now I don't even count the days of my cycle, AF just turns up when she turns up (Like last night when she did and DH had to take a cold shower this morning instead when I told him ) I note the changes over the course of a cycle and I know what is 'abnormal' for me, but I don't pay attention to it in the same way I did when I was in TTC mode, it's a different way of looking at it now. Using fertility friend could be seen the same way. I have seen threads every now and then that says FF has said they 'should' have ovulated, but in reality they have no signs, so they doubt themselves or doubt FF etc.

[sloane]

i wasn't offered a dating scan because i knew the date of my LMP (although i did disagree with that stupid wheel thing they have re-my EDD because i'd been tracking my cycles in FF, esp when diff m/w gave me diff dates with the same data ), the NT scan was optional & my dr made sure i knew it really was optional & up to me. i did have some scans later in PG but that was because of GD & the hospital's paranoia that i was growing some gigantic baby

[Traveller]

I have a problem with frequent ultrasounds, especially before 20 weeks, as there is no solid research to show they are safe. The reasearch that was done showed they are most likely safe after 20 weeks at lower levels of ultrasound than are done today. So with my last pregnancy I declined the 12 week dating scan I was offered. I was then told I had to have it done, and asked (in a crowded waiting room) to explain my reasoning and how I could possibly know my EDD. Needless to say I was furious and put in a complaint. The obstetrician appologised and said of course I could refuse the ultrasound, that women regularly did and the hospital policy was to be fine with this but to ask that they at least accept an anomoloy scan as it helps prepare for any problems at birth.

The nurse who told me all this was spoken to about her behaviour, and all staff were politely reminded that only midwives, sonographers or obstetricians could discuss the acceptance or refusal of any tests, that all tests were option, and that any discussions should be in private. Score one for me!

At my 21 week scan, twins were detected. The sonographer found this hilarious as it really validated the need for an early scan I am kinda glad I did not know though as I would have worried about the higher chance of micarriage instead of just enjoying the pregnancy as I did.

[Glamourcide]

I cannot agree more with Nelle, Trillian and others who have made similar points. For me, personally, there was no 'reason' to need to 'know' my body - my cycles have been whacky since I started puberty - no 28 days, regular, here. I wasn't trying to have a baby, I didn't care - AF just arrived whenever she felt like it, went on her merry way and I never paid attention. Falling pg for me involved no more 'thinking' or researching or learning about my body, than ceasing the Pill and carrying on as normal. I didn't even know I was pg until a routine urine scan for a completely unrelated condition was done at hospital one morning, and it was a huge surprise to me as I'd had what I assumed was AF just a couple of weeks before - then a dating scan confirmed I was almost into my second trimester. I'd had my 'period', no symptoms, no clue. If I'd suddenly grown a bump and done a test at home, I would have thought I was about 8 weeks behind what I really was, kwim?
If not for BB, I'd still have no clue about how my body works. Most women I know IRL are in the 'doctor knows best, he studied this at uni after all' camp, and so was I until stumbling across BB for something unrelated. Medical staff play a huge role in keeping us conditioned not to question - the way I was treated during my third pregnancy (with DD2) left me constantly feeling like I was bashing my head against a wall, or going crazy, because I was treated as a 'difficult' 'hippie' who just didn't like 'being told what to do' without having any real basis for my disagreement with my carers. If not for BB, I'd have simply gone along with whatever they suggested, not questioning, not caring, because I knew nothing and didn't feel that I needed to - I had midwives with training and experience to tell me what was going on, a few books to read on my own time, and an uncomplicated conception, pregnancy and delivery. Why clutter my head with useless info or stress myself about different methods when the 'traditional' ones would have worked just fine? Most people think like this, and while it's sad, I can absolutely understand that POV, though it frustrates me now that I am 'enlightened'.

It's our entire society - I don't blame women as individuals for being uninformed or seeming to 'not care' or know how their bodies work. If they're anything like me, it took no effort to get pg and takes no effort to grow a baby, it just happens, and the doctor will help get it out when the time comes (when they say, and they must be right because they see pregnant women every day of their lives). It's why I now refer my friends to BB when I see something I disagree with happening, because I want them to have the opportunity to learn, but I don't want to force it upon them.

[Smoke Jaguar]

I loved using a Mooncup before falling pg again (after DS was ceonceived in 2005 I didn't get a period again until September 2008!) because I felt so much more in tune with myself, even though my cycle was still not very regular. I think there's a few factors for losing touch with ourselves and confidence in our intuition about ourselves, and one of them (apart from what I've already mentioned) is treating our cycles (until we want to conceive, that is!!) as inconvenient. We 'treat' it with paper disposable products that make it more horrible (THAT smell!!!). So, I will provide DD with a Mooncup when it's her time, so that she can bypass that distrust and disgust - it will be normal for her anyway, as she'll grow up seeing me use mine.

[suse]

I've often wondered whether women are less intuitive of their bodies' reproductive functions compared to previous generations where medical intervention was less prolific, or whether there was an element of not worrying about the unknowable involved.

I do agree that once you automate a process less attention is paid to it - look at the number of people today who rely on spell checks and calculators. And I also know from my dad's experience as an ambo that he could accurately diagnose a broken bone where a doctor would be reliant on an X-ray - they no longer have to use their senses in the same way that they did before that technology existed (which in many ways, is all that intuition and instinct is: paying attention to one's senses). So it stands to reason that we in general have become dependent upon things like ultrasound technology as a replacement of our own knowledge, and pay less attention to the physical signs of things that can be picked up on scans etc.

But I also think that perhaps there is a romanticised view of the instinctual birthing in previous generations. I don't necessarily think that women had any inherent advantage of body awareness beyond what I've mentioned above - they just didn't worry about it as much because there was no point. Birthing was something that happened in its own way and time, and compared to today, there were few interventions that could change the outcome of pregnancy or birth. I think people may have been more relaxed about it - why worry about things like LMPs and EDDs when there's no real way of controlling when it happens.

I think that when medical professionals treat it as a symbiotic relationship - in that they use their technology to confirm what a woman's senses are telling her, the best outcome can be had by all.

Tan - I'm really sorry you were treated condescendingly by your sonographer - that kind of attitude does nothing to improve trust between medical professionals and birthing women.

[Trillian]

Maya, I would never say my cycles are inconvenient far from it, but I don't pay it the same attention as I did when I was TTC, now I pay attention from a women's health perspective kwim?

[onthefly]

Going through IVF I had a zillion scans before I even got pregnant so you kinda just relinquish 'control'. Our private OB scanned evey time we saw him, till we asked him to stop, but we still ended up having 7 during the pregnancy, not including the pre-transfer scans.

But, when we booking in to the hospital, the midwives were only interested in the date of my LMP - so big raspberries to the dating scan!

I can see the value in an early/dating scan in some instances, but most of the time it's probably unnecessary. I wouldn't have one if I conceived naturally.

[Glamourcide]

I don't necessarily think that women had any inherent advantage of body awareness beyond what I've mentioned above - they just didn't worry about it as much because there was no point. Birthing was something that happened in its own way and time, and compared to today, there were few interventions that could change the outcome of pregnancy or birth. I think people may have been more relaxed about it - why worry about things like LMPs and EDDs when there's no real way of controlling when it happens.

I absolutely agree - I remember talking to my grandmother about the confusion surrounding my EDD with DD2, and she said, 'When I was pregnant with your father, the 'due date' was 'sometime toward the end of Spring'!'
Whereas I, even knowing the approximate LMP because I fell pregnant within a week of ceasing the Pill (I had the breakthrough bleed two days after I stopped, then within days had that 'funny taste' in my mouth and knew I was UTD), was treated like an imbecile by midwives because the LMP, dating scan and size of my uterus toward the end of my pg weren't matching up like they were 'meant' to - my EDD (given by the nuses) went from May 14, to May 24, to May 21, then she arrived on her own on the morning of the 31st of May I felt the midwives were putting too much faith in textbooks and not enough in my body's ability to expel the child when she'd reached optimum growth. As I said, my cycles were never regular so I put zero faith in EDD based on LMP, I depended on a dating scan to measure my baby's growth, but I was relaxed about it and kept in mind that it was an ESTIMATED dude date, whereas most of my friends put all their bets on the EDD as 'THE day of arrival', and get all tied up in knots if they get BH before the due date, or go three hours past midnight with no sign of impending delivery.

[maz]

We 'treat' it with paper disposable products that make it more horrible (THAT smell!!!). So, I will provide DD with a Mooncup when it's her time, so that she can bypass that distrust and disgust - it will be normal for her anyway, as she'll grow up seeing me use mine.

I have to ask...what will you do if your DD doesnt want to use a Mooncup? I to dont want mini me to use disposable products for AF but if she insist's I would rather buy them then have her embarressed, especially considering that its all knew to them in their teenage years ect.

I've often wondered whether women are less intuitive of their bodies' reproductive functions compared to previous generations where medical intervention was less prolific, or whether there was an element of not worrying about the unknowable involved.

Can anyone remember sex ed at school??? I bet my bottom dollar that if we were taught to tune into our selves rather then throw comdoms at us that there would be alot less accidental teenage pg's. There is so much worry about STD's and education about them...why dont they educate about ovulation correctly and not make it sucha shh shhh thing.

Maya, I would never say my cycles are inconvenient far from it, but I don't pay it the same attention as I did when I was TTC, now I pay attention from a women's health perspective kwim?

I'll say mine are especially atm cause its not nice muck wise for me and I totally agree...when your TCC you pay more attention on trying to grab that egg at the right time.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Maz,

it will be normal for her anyway, as she'll grow up seeing me use mine.

Dealing with her menses will be normalised for her by the time she reaches puberty If she still wants to use something else, then because of the way we are not coy about sexuality or physicality, our relationship will be one in which she can just talk to me about it and we can proceed from there - there'll be no need to have a secret stash of paper products just in case she is 'too embarrassed' to talk to me about stuff That's my whole point, though, Maz - my whole approach to bodies and what they do will erode that embarrassment that you and I are familiar with from school. My mum hardly talked about her periods except about the pain (she had endo) and me seeing her buy paper product in the supermarket for herself - that was my conditioning. DD's will be very different.

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

I hafta say, I know hardly anything about my cycles and systems....because the whole subject embarrasses me It was well explained by Mum, and also at school, but for some reason I cannot get past the embarrassment to learn about myself.

Sometimes I read things here, like the women TTC who know whether their cervix is hard or soft - I've tried ONCE and I can't even find the damn thing! I don't even wear tampons because the thought (and the action the one time I tried) of inserting them just feels so wrong, so embarrassing. And, though I'm sure everyone in AO will laugh, I have no idea how to 'help myself' - not that I ever would, because THAT embarrasses me too!

So in answer to your question Tan - yes, I am that out of touch, and I just don't know how to go about learning

[Lolli]

One very interesting thread.

[maz]

Maz, Dealing with her menses will be normalised for her by the time she reaches puberty If she still wants to use something else, then because of the way we are not coy about sexuality or physicality, our relationship will be one in which she can just talk to me about it and we can proceed from there - there'll be no need to have a secret stash of paper products just in case she is 'too embarrassed' to talk to me about stuff That's my whole point, though, Maz - my whole approach to bodies and what they do will erode that embarrassment that you and I are familiar with from school. My mum hardly talked about her periods except about the pain (she had endo) and me seeing her buy paper product in the supermarket for herself - that was my conditioning. DD's will be very different.

I am hardly coy but there does come a time when some girls dont want to talk to their mum's about certain things...and alas peer pressure may get in the way Just because we are open and liberal about it doesnt mean that our daughter will be hon in years to come. I hope to god Im wrong and mini me will be open to using cloth as I do but time will tell

mini me already knows about periods ect and she's only 3 1/2 (had a great chat she did with a checkout chick at the supermarket today about it )