Private schools used for cultural quarantine

[Amaunet]

It's the only thing we have though. How else can we compare the academic achievements of schools?

In short, you can't. Not a satisfactory answer I'm afraid There are soooo many variables that affect a schools (or more specifically students within that schools) academic performance. No one test can ever measure or represent those. Academic performance is also (in my opinion) only a part of what is important when choosing a school. Some schools also skew their results by leaving out many lower ability students (they are exempted or don't attend on the day) My school has fairly average NAPLAN results but an amazing rep for sport, performing arts, public speaking, as well as pastoral care of students, retention of at risk kids etc. I hate the fact that a single test doesn't take any of that into account. We also take all comers from a fairly low socio economic area with low education levels in our parent community. Even grouping us with "like" schools doesn't truly represent our cohort. We have students who do amazingly well academically, those who show amazing growth and improvement and others who...don't. Not always due to their school/class/teachers...

Sorry, I'm really only responding to the last few posts, not the overall thread

[Trillian]

The Govt pushed for it to happen against advice. It is as useless as the grocerywatch website. It wasn't meant as a rhetorical question - I'm genuinely interested to know what you think parents used to use to compare schools. You cannot compare two schools using NAPLAN results and it is ridiculous to think that you can.

Read Marilyn Parkers blog and you'll find out why the NAPLAN should not be used in this way.

ETA - well of course those areas are important and possibly the most important areas of learning, but they are not the ONLY areas, and that is what people are misguidingly basing decisions on. I totally agree with Amaunet on this one. The school that we are intending to send DS to for high school is an agricultural high school because that is where his interests lie - we are not concerned as much about their records for literacy and numeracy as we are their development of agriculture and the NAPLAN doesn't take that into account, so it would be a total waste of time to even look at their NAPLAN results.

[Amaunet]

My kids are not in school yet so forgive my so-called ignorance. However, my understanding is that the Myschool website allows you to compare like with like, taking into account the socioeconomic background and other factors such as special needs kids.

The NAPLAN scores obviously don't take that into account but the Myschool website does and allows you to see how a school rates per se then how it rates against similar schools.

But this really only works if the schools, you, the website viewer, are comparing are similar iykwim. Otherwise its meaningless! Comparing a private school who can select their student and a public school who takes everyone (as this is often the comparison made) is going to be blatantly unfair...

[fionas]

That's OK. I'm not saying that I would look solely at the NAPLAN results, that would be nuts. But it would be a factor in my overall decision.

As for Trillian's point about talking to teachers about their approach .... yeah, great, I'll do all that. But I know that what sounds great, often ain't great. Friends whose boys both have speech development issues were given great reassurances by our childcare centre about what plan they would put in place for their boys. Sounded fabulous. Didn't happen. So I see Myschool as another tool in helping decide. Not the be all and end all, just another tool.

[Trillian]

But if their needs weren't being met as they promised they would be, why weren't they in there getting something done about it. You cannot be passive when it comes to things like this, especially with kids who have higher needs. The way you say that about it not always working out when you talk to them, that's when you have to hold them to account for it and make them do the right thing by your kids. And a childcare centre is completely and without a doubt completely different and uncomparable to a school - it's a daycare centre, not a preschool!

[Floweryfields]

Sorry ausgirl - your post did make me feel like you thought I was a moron. I feel like I didn't succeed in highschool because of the crowd I hung around. I dropped out, fell pregnant... & here I am.

Sorry if that's how it came across, that wasn't my intention at all and I certainly don't think you're a moron!

[fionas]

I imagine before Myschool came in that parents used to rely a lot on the opinions of their fellow parents. Which is fair enough.

Personally, I like John Fleming's approach and will probably be questioning DD1's proposed school on the points that he raises regarding a phonics approach to reading, teacher-led learning and expectation-raising. But I'll also be looking at their NAPLAN results. So shoot me.

[fionas]

But if their needs weren't being met as they promised they would be, why weren't they in there getting something done about it. You cannot be passive when it comes to things like this, especially with kids who have higher needs. The way you say that about it not always working out when you talk to them, that's when you have to hold them to account for it and make them do the right thing by your kids. And a childcare centre is completely and without a doubt completely different and uncomparable to a school - it's a daycare centre, not a preschool!

You've completely missed my point. You mentioned that a good way of gauging how good a school is would be to talk to the teachers. I'm saying that talking to someone is not the be all and end all. Talk is cheap. They could make it sound like their style of teaching is the most wonderful in the universe. It doesn't mean that it is. And yes, I'm aware that a childcare centre is completely different to a school. Again, my point was about the difference between what someone says and the reality.

[Trillian]

I'm not going to shoot you, but my point is that far too much credit is given towards the NAPLAN results when talking about choosing schools, and it's not directed at you personally Fiona I think you will find that a lot of schools are moving towards using THRASS instead of Jolly Phonics and I think you will find that most schools err towards child-led learning and children actively participate in their educations instead of sitting there passively rote learning.

[fionas]

Never heard of THRASS but will have a read. Yes, most schools go towards child-led learning. John Fleming thinks that's a bit nuts and his results are pretty amazing.

I would think on the teacher versus child-led thing that a mix of both would be sensible.

In terms of phonics vs whole word thing, I learnt the phonics way, I'll need to be convinced that the whole word way works better.

I'm not taking your points personally Trillian though I do think that calling someone's viewpoint "ignorant' is a bit OTT and devalues the points that you are raising.

[Maruschke]

One of the collegues at work wrote a scathing article against the my schools webpage... it's basically crap and not worth the paper it's written on.

[Trillian]

though I do think that calling someone's viewpoint "ignorant' is a bit OTT and devalues the points that you are raising.

That's a matter of opinion I don't think it is OTT at all. I do think it is ignorant when too much emphasis is placed on these tests by people who don't have kids in school and who don't really know what the NAPLAN is all about - again not pointed at you directly at all, but generally speaking far too much media is given to the importance of these tests and *we've* all come to think that they are the be all and end all when it comes to how good a school is.

Back when I was at school we did the same test, only it was called the "Basic Skills Test' and it covered the same areas, but it was never ever used as a comparison tool. Then they brought out the standardised NAPLAN test and the Govt thought it would be a great idea to earn brownie points by using it as a school comparison tool.

[fionas]

Just because someone factors the NAPLAN tests into their thinking doesn't mean they think they're the be all and end all.

Anyhow, I think we can agree to disagree

[Trillian]

I think we can I missed your post about the childcare centre. Talk may seem cheap, but this is why it is important to keep yourself in the loop when you have kids in school. If they tell you that yes, we can cater for these kids, make sure that they do. Ultimately there is no sure fire 100% perfect way of finding out how great a school is. Some may look great on paper and tick all the boxes, but their school ethos could be crap. I would not send my kids to half of the private schools in this country because of the way they reek of white privilege and nurture the patriarchy and misogynistic views on life, but on paper they are fantastic schools. So that's why you have to be an involved parent nd make sure that once your kids are there that it is still the right school for them.

[fionas]

But this really only works if the schools, you, the website viewer, are comparing are similar iykwim. Otherwise its meaningless! Comparing a private school who can select their student and a public school who takes everyone (as this is often the comparison made) is going to be blatantly unfair...

Sorry to harp on, but people aren't really that stupid that they would fail to understand the unfairness of a comparison between a private and public school, are they?

The very first thing I would look at would be the socioeconomic breakdown for the parents of a particular school on the site, especially if I wanted to compare the results of two dissimilar schools. I find it fascinating, for instance, that out our local public school, according to the My School website, has parents from a higher socioeconomic demographic than our local private school. Our local public school ranks very highly compared to other SIMILAR schools. I've been to the school, I've met some of the teachers, I've met some of the pupils. I've talked to other parents who all say it's great. But I love it that I'm able to get some hard-nosed data via the website. School revolves around tests. That's life.

[Phteven]

One of the collegues at work wrote a scathing article against the my schools webpage... it's basically crap and not worth the paper it's written on.

Link? Unless it's your friend's article that's not worth the paper it's written on

The comparisons on the MySchools website are crap. The school my boys go to is pretty much a one of a kind. There are other bi-lingual schools in the ACT but they use different methodology and bi-lingual schools in other states that use the same methodology have a different socio-econimic profile and have English streams as well. Because they are being educated in 2 languages there is an expectation that until about year 3 they will be behind mono-lingually educated children in some areas. This is reflected in their NAPLN scores but there is nowhere on the MySchools website that explains that under the teaching methodology this is an expected outcome. Most of the schools they are compared to are mono-lingual schools with a similar demographic profile and totally different learning methods.

MySchool makes no mention of bullybusting programs, sustainability, chooks, vege gardens, arts programs, sporting opportunities and all the other things that count.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Maybe that's because in this world, it's exam results that count and not if you went to a sustainable school? Just a thought.

My son currently attends a multiculti, low sociodemograph area school. We are moving him to another school next week. The new one is more local - but doesn't have a 5yo bully tormenting other children while the teachers do nothing about it (unless the vicar's son is the local bully, but he got on well enough with Liebling when they played together). Nothing to do with immigrant cultures (the child in question is caucasian), in fact I'm happy DS is exposed to other cultures, I think it's good for him.

As for senior school - I would like him to go private. They generally get better results, the local ones have lower rates of bullying and the old boys associations are a force to be reckoned with. I'm happy for him to go to a multiculti school, but I want the best for my child and that means, right now, a private education. Cos that means good exam results, building self-esteem, better chance at a "good" Uni and therefore a helping hand on the job market. Priviledge? Gosh yes. But it's there, so why not take advantage if you can?

[Phteven]

In my world being a responsible member of society who is kind to others and gives back to their community is more important than exam results. Most happiness studies seem to demonstrate that happy people are people who are connected with their community and that more joy is derived from kindness to others and experiences than from possessions.

I don't give a fig what exam results a school gets if it can't demonstrate that it is interested in helping students to grow into decent human beings and ensuring that they are happy at school.

Not to mention that children learn more about the life cycle of plants and nutrition by growing and eating veges than by sitting a science exam.