Helping DD deal with a bully

DD's "boyfriend" is a gorgeous kid. they have the occasional disagreement about who has what bike to ride etc, but they get along like a house on fire. His mum and I sit together at work and socialise a fair bit outside of work as well.

problem - socialising with them means we are going to be socialising (parties etc) with my friends brother and his kids. 3 of the 4 kids are really nice - but one is horrid. my friend doesn't like him playing with her son (but she loves her brother, so is kinda in a catch 22) because he is a bully. big time. he waits til people have their back turned, and he'll attack the littler kids. he is 4. He is competitive for attention with my friends little boy all the time. if L is playing with something, P wants it. if he can't force L to hand it over, he screams blue murder and goes sooking to his parents. his parents have the attitude that L is in the wrong cos "he's an only child and doesn't know how to share". Such a crock!! he shares brilliantly with DD. P just wants whatever L has to cause him grief.

yesterday we were at my friends place to watch the footy. DD went off to play with her little boyfriend like she always does. they were running around the yard, playing on the slide, no dramas at all. then P came out of the house, and started interfering. the two little kids (28 month DD, 35month L) were playing on the slide, so P climbed up and started pushing tonka trucks off the slide, aiming at the little ones. i wasn't much watching the game so i was keeping an eye on them - but was trying not to be a "helicopter parent". DH stepped in and asked P to stop with the trucks or he'd confiscate them all

i had to duck inside to go to the loo - within a minute, P came in. "the girl is crying, she fell off the steps" - the slide is almost as tall as DH, so nearly 6 foot up. i went out to her straight away - she was really distressed. i picked her up and cuddled her and asked her where she hurt. she couldn't tell me. i asked her if she fell - she looked at P and said "no, he push". I know kids can lie, but DD has never had a reason to lie, and i believe her that he pushed her off the steps to the slide. it took us nearly an hour to convince her it was ok to go back up the slide - and every time she started to climb up, she looked around and made sure she could see where P was. if he was close, she'd walk away. A little later, she was up on the top of the play equipment, getting ready to slide - he climbed up and pushed her down the slide (i witnessed that one). i didn't want to make a big deal of it, but didn't want him getting away with pushing the little kids around, so asked my friend what approach she thought i should take. she spoke to all the kids about being gentle and not hurting each other

later in the evening, he was chasing DD with a wooden spoon - aiming for her head (this was after making his cousin cry by hitting him and taking toys off him) - again, i wasn't sure how to deal, but my friend seen it and confiscated the spoons and told him to play nice. his parents were RIGHT THERE - and did nothing. sorry, that's a lie - when he had a tantrum, his mother picked him up, said "ooh you're tired" and asked him if he wanted milo in a bottle. sigh

so, i guess i'm at a point - i don't know how to deal with this. we're "maybe" catching up next weekend, and definitely in about a month for L's birthday. how do i help DD to know what is acceptable from him and what isn't? how do i help her stand up to him and not be pushed around? i don't want her to feel like she has to take it, but i don't want her to feel that she has to run and tell someone everything he does. i believe in kids learning about conflict resolution as early as possible kwim? She did a pretty good job yesterday of moving away and playing with something else every time he came near her, but that's not always going to be possible - and i dont want her to end up hurt (she was pushed up a wooden fort - which has a water tank right beside it - from where her hat ended up, she was right between the two. i am assuming, from the lack of marks - aside from a graze on her face - that she wasn't far up the steps - he's just pushed her sideways - but she could have been hurt if she'd been higher or if she'd hit her head on the tank or fort)

any suggestions? i don't want to have to hover - i want her to be confident and be able to play with her friend - but i also want her to be safe!

I agree that children need to learn about conflict resolution but your poppet is still such a baby that I think it's fine for you to handle this one for her. I would be taking the approach that if he can't play nice he can't play with the other children but that requires his parent's co-operation.
At school in their bully busters program they encourage the children to verbalise why they are moving a way so maybe encourage her to say 'no' or 'I don't like that'.

TBH BG, I would tell bully boy myself what I expect while he is playing with my child. But that's just me. Clearly his parents aren't setting any boundaries for him, and I think you have a right to protect your child, by giving him your own set of ground rules. Then if anything happens your LO has something to go by 'mummy said no pushing'

I have also come to realise from DS that age 4 (ish) is like 'cheap shot' age. If they can get a little kick in, or a pinch or push in without being seen, they'll do it, so you have to watch constantly.

thanks Onyx

his parents don't seem to be prepared to address his issues. i know my friend's mum (P's grandmother) won't look after him due to his behavioural issues and the way he treats the other kids - but the parents don't seem to want to address it. My friend has filled me in a little on family dynamics, and from what she has said there is a lot of tension in her brothers marriage (he only wanted two kids, she is pregnant with number five in her quest to have another little girl) - P is child number 3, and when he was born with a penis, his mother somewhat withdrew from him (well, once he wasn't a baby any more). it may have contributed. it may simply be that he is a sociopath in the making (my friends words, not mine!).

i don't want to cause dramas for my friend by adding tension with her brother if i do anything - but i don't want my girl to get hurt either. She already said to him several times yesterday to stop. we've taught her that even when we're playing, if she says stop, we will (tickling etc) because we want her to know she doesn't have to take anything. Maybe i need to say something to E in P's hearing (and his parents) that she can tell anyone to stop and she can walk away. i dunno. love my friend, and love spending time with her - but hate that my girl became this kids target yesterday.

Hmm tough one.

it sounds like they baby him far too much.. this kid is 4 u say? milo in a bottle? r they serious?

If this kid did that to one of my kids and i saw it and his parents did aswel, id have a chat to the parents or even the kid himself.

maybe teach DD to say no and just keep an eye out for her.

Its hard when the parents dont seem to care

Having a 4 and half year old, ive always taught him to play nice, no hitting and if i see him doing it he will be in trouble

Its always up to the parents on how their child/ren play with others

So, his parents don't care what he does, he deliberately hurts kids and seems to get a kick out of it. To me it sounds like he is either doing it all for his parents attention or he genuinely doesn't know how to play with other kids. He probably doesn't have much attention paid to him at home unless he does something wrong. The same goes with hurting kids, he probably doesn't know how to be a part of the group. If I were you I'd sit with your DD and when he comes near ask him to join in and teach him how you would like him to play with her.

i've only been around the family once (yesterday) - so a lot of what i know, i know due to my friend telling me. from my own observations yesterday though, they just didn't want to bother. they had their older two being responsible for the younger ones (the youngest is probably 15-18 months and wasn't supervised by the parents at all while outside). i don't think he has been taught boundaries. i suspect there is a very big degree of attention seeking behaviour. yes i understand that mum is pregnant and may be feeling tired. i understand that mum and dad have some pretty serious marital issues. i don't understand how they can expect their older kids to parent the younger ones and not have the younger ones turn into painful people with no understanding of right or wrong. i dont understand leaving a 10 year old responsible for a toddler. i don't understand leaving a child they KNOW is nasty in a back yard with kids he will target. he did all he could to upset the toddler, he upset L, he upset DD. he HATED that L and DD were playing happily together and basically ignoring him. i guess that may be why he targeted DD

there is a big difference between letting kids play without being smothered, and totally ignoring them. i try to take a step back (watching out a window or just sitting on the deck watching) i dont' ignore (they were inside, blinds down, watching the footy. if it weren't for DH and myself, and my friend popping in and out, there would have been zero supervision for pretty much the entire game)

sigh - i feel like i'm judging their parenting, because it's very different to my own - but i can't seem to help it. when their "parenting" puts my kid at risk, it's a problem for me

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i don't understand leaving a child they KNOW is nasty in a back yard with kids he will target.

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He's not a dog BG. This is a child we're talking about.

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He's not a dog BG. This is a child we're talking about.

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yes, he is a kid
a kid that they know punches and pushes other kids around - he has a nasty streak that they are aware of, and yet they chose not to supervise him

hell, at the end of the day, his mother was saying DD must have been a great influence because it's the first time L and P hadn't had issues. so she KNOWS it happens - but she chooses not to supervise. a kid that has a nasty streak or tends to be a bully should be supervised with kids they know he will target (yes, DD was first time, but he targets his cousin every time they are together) all the time IMO. it shouldn't be up to me or my friend to supervise him to make sure our children don't get hurt. it shouldn't be up to us to have to work out how to pussy foot around discipline issue with someone elses child to stop ours getting hurt. i shouldn't feel a need to come on BB and ask for advice on how to teach my TWO YEAR OLD how to stand up to a bully.

she understands that dogs are lovely but she has to be careful around them - and she's not left unsupervised with any dogs. i shouldn't have to teach her that kids can be dangerous too. i shouldn't have to be teaching her to avoid children. if she acts out and takes toys off a child or hits out at another child, she is removed from the situation and told why it's wrong to behave like that - i damn well shouldn't have to take her out of a situation, make her feel like SHE is being punished, when a kid that they KNOW is a right little brat that hurts the other kids is left unsupervised!

to be honest, i'd rather leave her in the back yard with my friends dog than her nephew. you might find that offensive, but i believe she is safer and less likely to get hurt like that.

As a dog lover I don't find that offensive at all.

As the mother of a child who used to do these things I do find what you said about that child offensive, both to that particular child and to his parents. Like I said in my previous post, the only thing YOU can do to protect your dd (because she is too young to protect herself and to play unattended) is to be with her and teach this boy how you want him to treat your dd. That is all you can do if they are going to be associating with each other on a regular basis.

then why the statement about the dog? i don't get it. i don't believe i've been wishy washy or said anything that insinuates i believe he is like a dog - so why make the statement?

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to be honest, i'd rather leave her in the back yard with my friends dog than her nephew. you might find that offensive, but i believe she is safer and less likely to get hurt like that.

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He's not a dog BG. This is a child we're talking about.

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THIS dog comment - is it the fact i didn't put the word "unsupervised" in that particular sentence. i'm pretty sure i'd covered it off more than a few times in my posts - didn't think it would require further clarification in each sentence...

Oh that dog comment....

No, the word unsupervised had nothing to do with it. The way you described the child in that sentence reminded me of something someone would say about a dog. I probably could have worded it better but when it comes down to it, this is a child we're talking about. How would you like it if your DD was described in that way?

if she was bullying other kids and i wasn't supervising and trying to intervene to teach her right from wrong, i'd expect it!

yeah, he's four. yeah, a lot of this is probably more about what his parents aren't doing to teach him right from wrong/give him attention. but the fact is that he IS a bully, and i'm not going to down play that. i didn't come on here to have a discussion of how he came to be a bully, i came on here to get help with how to help my two year old deal with him so that she doesn't have to miss out on going to things with her best friend. maybe i could fluff it all out and make it sound all airy fairy and hugs and kisses or whatever, but the truth is i am really peeved that they chose not to supervise a four year old that they know has a nasty streak. my daughter got hurt because they chose not to supervise him. i'm not gonna pussy foot around that. i'm not going to sit here and rethink everything i type in an effort to try and negate any potentially negative connotations that may be taken on a statement i've made about this kid. he is a bully. his AUNT thinks of his as a sociopath. i think the misconstrued statement that may or may not have sounded like a reference to a dog is the least of the issues here.

if i wanted help on how to approach this boys parents about the fact he is a bully, that's what i would have asked. i'm not. i have a DD who is highly likely to be at the receiving end of bullying as she grows up if she is anything like her mum. red hair makes her a target. potentially needing glasses adds another target reason. she needs to learn to deal with them for herself - THAT's what i'm asking - for HELP on teaching her, at this age, what a bully is and how to deal with them - forgive me my protective mumma bear instinct and my inability to word my statements about a child that pushed my kid off a six foot ladder in a sugar and spice way. right now, i dont' care what anyone thinks my perception of him is - i care about MY DAUGHTER. i can't do much to help him - an hour here and there from a relative stranger isn't going to help him. that's on his parents. i can help my poppet though - and whether it's helping her deal with him, or the next obnoxious kid she comes up against at a play centre/playground, i'm asking for help to help HER deal

she's an only child - 99% of the time, she has adults around her - adults that don't push boundaries, dont' intentionally hurt her. she doesn't have older siblings that have taught her to stand up to them. she is treated with respect as a little person. she doesn't understand when other kids treat her like crap. she doesn't understand when they hurt her.

can we maybe stay on topic and not pick on my wording cos frankly, i dont' care - i care about HELPING HER

:hug: So sorry your little one is having a rough time with this kid. I think Onyx's suggestion about teaching her to say no, or to ask the kid to stop pushing/hitting/grabbing toys/insert undesirable behaviour here is a good one, combined with turning to you, your partner or her friend's mum for help. She's still very little to deal with this totally on her own, and this kid is much older and bigger than her so you're definitely ok keeping watch and stepping in when necessary - I would too.

It will get easier for the little ones to stand up to rough play and bullying as they get older, but is it possible to get the older kids to help out by organising games for all the kids to play with a little structure - things like chasey or hide and seek etc?

Hmmm this is a tough one...

At DS's CC they have been teaching them to say 'stop (with hand signal), I don't like it'. It sounds really simple, but it seems to be working when I see kids do it in the room. Obviously it takes awhile to sink in, but is a good start.

In you situation, I probably would be keeping a very close eye on what goes on. When he starts to do something that is overstepping the line I would go over to E and explain to her that she should say 'stop it, I don't like it'. You're almost killing two birds with one stone - you'll be empowering E to learn how to deal with this sort of stuff, but at the same time you will be intervening in a way that isn't telling the other child off iykwim.

Mind you, I think when the other child is so much older and has the bully traits you are talking about, you'll always have to keep a close eye on things... Even when E gets the hang of standing up for herself, there is nothing to say the other child is going to respect it.

HTH

To be honest, I am more confrontational when something is hurting or upsetting my boys that I don't think they are equipped to handle. If they can or I think they should, I step back and just watch to monitor the situation.

Anyway, next time, I would loudly announce that I will be watching my child outside because it is obvious that P is unable to play nicely with others. I would look at his parents and say would you like to join me or shall I discipline him if I believe it is warranted? (mention that you will not put your hand on him unless he is physically agressive to your DD). Put them on the spot so the focus is brought to their parenting skills by all the other adults. It will definitely make them uncomfortable but your DD is the priority.

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So, his parents don't care what he does, he deliberately hurts kids and seems to get a kick out of it. To me it sounds like he is either doing it all for his parents attention or he genuinely doesn't know how to play with other kids. He probably doesn't have much attention paid to him at home unless he does something wrong. The same goes with hurting kids, he probably doesn't know how to be a part of the group. If I were you I'd sit with your DD and when he comes near ask him to join in and teach him how you would like him to play with her.

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I think this is great advice. I think it is also important to say no to him and for you DD to say to him that she doesn't like some of the things she does (as much as she is able to at her age), but I suspect if you just continuously say no to him without offering any alternative, he will just feel the need to show you that he has power and you can't boss him around which might make him worse. I think if you set up situations where you are able to give him positive attention, he might respond really well.

If he is feeling really deprived for attention, negative attention is better than no attention at all. Some kids would rather do a behaviour and at least get attention in a negative way than to be completely ignored all the time. If his parents only give him attention in a corrective way, his behaviour could be conditioned to doing only things that get him negative attention from adults because he doesn't get any at other times. If you show him that he can have attention from you when he is gentle or just because - like sitting down and having a friendly chat with him about nothing in particular - his behaviour might change dramatically. Sometimes kids like this just want a bit of attention and direction ... not always to be told not to do something, but to be shown how to play. It is possible that his parents have never taught him how to play gently with other kids. You could be doing him a huge favour.

It does suck that your DD is getting hurt, especially when he is so much bigger. I hope you can work out a solution to keep everyone safe :hug:

the advice about positive attention is great - IF you have a situation where you are sitting down doing something. arty stuff or the likes. it doesn't work so well when you've got half a dozen kids running around outside - you either have to take them away from what they want to do, put too much control on their "free play", or become a "helicopter" parent. if they're playing footy or something, then yeah, you can get involved - but when they're climbing up the fort/slide and generally behaving ok, there is no real "need", and it becomes a situation of cramping their play. DD very much noticed that Daddy was hanging around when her and L normally just play... admittedly she seemed to appreciate the protection, but i know that it will be a very minimal amount of time before it cramps her play kwim?

FWIW - i did try and talk to P. i was the only adult outside, he was grabbing some food, so i tried to engage him in conversation. it didn't work. i was talking to each of the kids as they came up on the deck. just asking what they were up to etc. he wasn't interested. i'm not going to push myself on him. DD closes down when people push too hard to engage her so i guess i assume most kids do the same.

Yeah, that's a tough situation. I don't mind being a helicopter parent if I need to be in order to protect my kids.They are still all small enough. It's not my preferred style, but I do it if I feel that they could be hurt otherwise. But you have to do what you are comfortable doing.

I hope you can work something out. It doesn't sound like a very fun night out for you either if you are worried about your DD the whole time.

BG that is a really tough situation. I was wondering if you could talk to your friend about your boundries in discipling the said child. Maybe your friend finds it hard given that it is her nephew and that she doesn't want to overstep her boundries with her brother. But you on the otherhand don't have that family connection.

Honestly if I saw a child doing the things you mentioned I would be tempted to say to him that he has to have time out from playing with the other children (whether he would listen or not is another thing) but I think you are in your right if the parents of the child are not going to step in to say that you don't push, hit, etc smaller children and that he needs to play elsewhere for a period of time until he can play again nicely. I really don't think the parents would say anything and if they didn well really a 4 year old picking on a 2 year old. My boys have been taught to say STOP, with the hand out (think its a standard daycare practice) but I do think that some older children wouldn't respect that especially coming from a younger child.

Good Luck with it all BG, I understand you are wanting E to stand up for herself but I think at 2 and with bigger children there is a really fine line given her understanding and also that fact that she could get seriously hurt.

planning on having a cat to my friend during the week about it. i know she was furious when he hurt E, but i also understand that she has many issues to consider. she didn't let it "slide" as such - but she didn't give P any singled out attention. when she spoke, she spoke to ALL the kids about doing the right thing. as an outsider, i guess i seen this as a way of not giving him any negative attention to counter the "any attention is attention" thing. i know she doesn't like her son being hurt, and the fact that DD got hurt might be an opening to say something to her brother where it won't come across as "single mummy playing over protective of her son" thing

i dunno

i wish this wasn't something we were having to deal with - she's still a baby. and ultimately, he's not that old - but he is significantly bigger, physically stronger....