Great-grandparents, scabies and newborn babies.

[Epacris]

Without going into too much detail (there is so much detail, believe me) my grandparents have varying degrees of dementia and (in the opinion of the family but not in the opinion of health care professionals ) are unable to look after themselves in their own home BUT they are refusing to move into a nursing home. So, when the inevitable happens, they end up going to emergency and then end up staying in hospital for extended periods of time, only to be discharged into the same circumstances that lead to their hospitalisation in the first place. Anyway, this has been going on for about three years now and part of the problem is that they both have a chronic infestation of scabies. My Mum and Aunt have been through the house so many times, cleaning it, chucking out all their clothes and bedding and replacing everything but nothing works, the scabies come back because they can’t look after themselves.

Anyway, they haven’t met DS2 yet and I have been feeling so guilty about it, so I have organised to go out and see them on Thursday (with just DS2, DS1 and DD will be at kindy). My Mum said “For God sake don’t let them hold DS2” but how can I not? They will be so upset and won’t understand. Are scabies really that bad? Could DS2 (or I) get them? Has anyone ever dealt with them, especially in a baby?

Anyone who has met me and DS2 knows that I’m happy to hand him around for a cuddle. Babies are such special creatures, so full of love, joy and warmth. They have special healing powers, they make you feel so good when you hold them, especially if they go to sleep in your arms. This might be the first and last time DS2 ever meets his great-grandparents.

It’s such a sad situation.

[blessedatlast]

This may seem like a silly question, but when the bedding etc is getting changed/thrown out have your grandparents actually been treated for scabies? Have they gotten rid of them and they keep coming back? I think scabies is extremely contagious with direct skin contact and I *personally wouldn't want anyone holding my baby if they had it. I'm not sure though if they are contagious after treatment. I think the treatment is just a cream from neck to toe, maybe ask the chemist and after your grandparents are treated they may not be contagious.. It is extremely sad. Have your grandparents been assessed by ACAT (Aged care Assessment Team)? It sounds like you really need the help of a social worker. I am shocked the hospital hasn't done more to prevent this happening. Surely they are entitled to home help?? I hope your grandparents get the help they deserve. Do you know where the scabies are coming from?

ETA: Are you sure it's scabies they have?

[Trillian]

This is a crappy situation to be in. I just had a google and after reading some of the info, I don't know if I would want to risk it TBH. I know it is a really really hard situation for you to be in, but scabies are extremely contagious and I'd be weary about taking older kids let alone a baby. From what I read they are really itchy and an infestation can last for 4-6 weeks and the treatment is pretty full on with bubs having to be covered completely in ointments. If you absolutely had to let them hold him, I would be bathing him immediately afterwards and changing all of his clothes. I'd also be worried about them kissing him on the face - because you know all that delicious baby goodness is also just begging to be kissed kwim?

[Catastrophic]

yea I wouldn't let them hold him either.. Scabies are awful...

[Epacris]

Thanks BAL yep, they have had the full scabies treatment, my Mum and Aunt make sure of it. And yep, they have had quite a few ACAT assessments too (each time they get out of hospital), but all they do is provide more in-home help because my grandparents don’t want to move. But it’s not enough, they need to be in fully supported care. And as for the RTA my grandfather was able to get his driving licence back so many times when he was clearly unable to physically drive as well as clearly suffering from dementia. But I don’t want to beat up, hospitals or aged care services, I think they great, really I do, it’s just my grandparents seem to have slipped through the gap on this occasion. Probably because they have hit a sweet spot between pleading and bluffing to get what they want, to stay in their home.

Thanks Trill and MN too.

[~ Mylitta ~]

I don't know much about scabies in humans, but in animals it's called sarcoptic mange and I've seen it countless times when I was veterinary nurse. It's terribly contagious and can take months and months of treatment just to get under control. It can also take weeks to months after exposure for the symptoms to actually start to show. So if your bub got them from the great-grandparents you might worry for weeks/months to find out if he got them and needs to be treated.

I know it's a horrible situation, but I personally wouldn't take the risk I wouldn't even want him in the house either just because it sounds like it's a pretty serious infestation. Usually prolonged exposure increases the risk of getting it, but it sounds like the sheer number of creatures that might be in the environment would certainly increase the risk also. Perhaps if you go you could tell a little white lie that your bub has been unwell and it at a higher risk of catching infections at the moment and your doctor has suggested not letting others hold him? I know that seems horrible, but at least it wouldn't hurt their feelings and they would still get to see the him...

[luna moth]

Scabies is rank. DH and I had it in 2007 after sleeping on a friend's revolting couch. It was a horrible enough experience to have stressed me to tears, it was so hard to get rid of, and that was just the two of us. There is no way I would go anywhere near it on my own, let alone with my baby.

But... if you really really want to... see if you can't wrap him up pretty well, cover all the skin you possibly can. Make the cuddles brief. Line the car seat on the way to get home, and then when you get there, put everything in a really hot wash straight away, including your clothes. Get both of you straight into the shower, and scrub up well. Cross your fingers tight, and you just might beat it.

If you don't beat it, though, you might like to build a shrine to your washing machine. You'll be using it a lot. And the ointment smells vile.

[Epacris]

Well, I talked to DH about it and his immediate and adamant gut reaction was exactly the same as mine, we can’t not let them hold him, they won’t understand and it would be just too cruel. They are so old and frail now I’m sure they won’t want to hold him for long and it could very well be the first and last time he meets them. I can totally understand all of you thinking we’re completely stupid for taking the risk, but for us we’ve decided that it’s worth taking. So Audax, thanks for those tips mate and any good luck anyone wants to send our way would also be much appreciated. I’ll let you know how we go on Thursday.

[onthefly]

Hope Audax's tips work

[Catastrophic]

Well, I talked to DH about it and his immediate and adamant gut reaction was exactly the same as mine, we can’t not let them hold him, they won’t understand and it would be just too cruel. They are so old and frail now I’m sure they won’t want to hold him for long and it could very well be the first and last time he meets them. I can totally understand all of you thinking we’re completely stupid for taking the risk, but for us we’ve decided that it’s worth taking. So Audax, thanks for those tips mate and any good luck anyone wants to send our way would also be much appreciated. I’ll let you know how we go on Thursday.

Your not stupid hun xoxo Your doing what is best for you and your family - everyone views risk differently.

[peanutter]

as others have said, scabies are shocking shocking bad ... but as decision has been made, managing it with tips like those below are your best way forwards ...

we had a foster girl who had them, and we managed to not have anyone else in the household (including pets) catch them. but there was lots of management, vacuuming, hot water washes, and ointment involved.

but it can be done.

audax's tips are good, and I'd wash bubs as soon as you get home, and the clothes (and whatever you drapt the babyseat in) in a hot wash with a bit of detol or something when you get home.

good luck

it's a delicate situation ...

[beansbeans!]

Goodluck with it, but personally I would be holding off a final decision until you see them.
I totally understand the decision you've made now, and honestly I would have made that decision if I were in the same situation but I would have held off making it the final decision until we got there and could evaluate the situation properly for ourselves. there are so many factors besides the scabies, that could weigh into whether or not they hold the baby. Dh's grandparents had dementia, sometimes when we would visit they would be in the right headpsace to have cuddles, othertimes we really thought it better that they didnt. Perhaps they werent in the right head space, or they were having a rough day, tired and what not.. And that wasnt to mention the general mood fo the girls, some days (especially when they were in hospital, and even now when we visit in the nursing home) the girls wont go to them. They just scream whilst being held.

Goodluck and i hope it all goes well, but maybe dont be afraid to change your mind if it doesnt sit right with you there and then?

[Phteven]

I think you're a wonderful kind person and I totally get why you have made the decision you have.
I'd pop him in a onesie so that he only has face sticking out and all his toes and tummy are kept covered and then wrap him up well and as soon as you reach the car change the wrap.

[peanutter]

or change him in the car into clean clothes?

[Epacris]

Thanks again everyone for your kind and helpful comments and for your concern. I really do appreciate your input.

beanbeans you are totally right, of course, nothing is set in stone and I will assess the situation when I’m there. If it just doesn’t feel right, I won’t do it.

Peanutter, yeah, DH wants me to say goodbye, drive around the corner and change him into fresh clothes (and possibly burn the clothes he’s been wearing ).

[Trillian]

Awwww Rach, I don't think you're stupid at all. I totally get why you are so conflicted by this and it was never going to be an easy thing to decide. Like I said before, I wouldn't risk it, but of course it is up to you and your DH what you want to do about it. We'll just cross our fingers for you that he or you don't get them

[beansbeans!]

Epacris,
Just wondering if you had been to see them and how you went with it all?

[Epacris]

Aww, thanks for asking beansbeans. I did mean to come and update this thread at the time but I got sidetracked and forgot (as you do).

So the short story is, of course I let them hold him, both of them, and my grandmother a few times. I would have let her hold him some more but he got tired and cranky and just screamed unless he was with me. We both seem to be absolutely fine so I’m 99% sure we've escaped unscathed.

Now for the long story. So... my grandmother was staying with my Uncle who is “going over” (cleaning) their house (again, my Mum and Aunt have given up and refuse to do it now) and my Grandfather was staying in a respite place in a nursing home. I met my grandmother at the house and we had morning tea together. She held him there and I got some absolutely beautiful photos of the two of them. Then we drove in separate cars (thank god for car seat hassles!) to see my grandfather in the nursing home. He held him there, fell asleep in his arms and I got more beautiful photos. Then we drove to their favourite cafe for lunch, my grandparents together in their car and DS2 and me in mine. I followed my grandmother, she was doing 55km in an 80km zone and generally causing chaos on the roads. My grandfather is also convinced he’s going to fight the RTA to get his licence back. It’s funny and sad listening to him all at the same time.

We had a lovely lunch but by this time DS2 was wrecked as he’d only had little catnaps the whole morning, just as he’d fall asleep I’d wake him again getting him in or out of the car. He just wanted to be attached to the boob the whole time. My grandfather was oblivious but I know my grandmother found it a bit confronting. She kept commenting about how she didn’t BF on demand, she fed every 3 hours or something like that, and that she was never really that good at it (of course you wouldn’t have been if you followed all that crap advice that was going around in the 40’s and 50’s) and the ubiquitous “oh he can’t still be hungry?”. Anyway, I just said (very politely) that if I don’t let him feed he will scream the place down and we’ll have to leave and that I’d rather be here eating my lovely lunch with you.

Then when we got home I changed us and washed all our stuff in a hot wash and made sure it got some sun as it was drying.

Despite what I’ve said above (I’m just debriefing the not-so-good bits) it was just wonderful to see them, I feel so ashamed that I’d put it off for so long. I must not leave it so long next time. And of course they were absolutely delighted to see us.