At a loss - DD being... Just silly.

[OceanPrincess]

DH and I are a bit at a loss as to how we should deal with DD, 4.5. She's doing really silly things - things that she knows are wrong, and does them anyway.

She's right into boundary pushing - could just be more of that, but DH and I are struggling with consequences. DH is getting very frustrated and angry with her as he feels she is doing it intentionally.

So, examples.

She weed in the bath. We'd said it was bath time and she and DS1 ran off down there to start getting ready. By the time DH got there five mins later (they can't use the taps so we were just chatting while they were stuffing around in the bathroom) she had weed in the bath. She'd gotten into the bath, fully clothed, pulled her leggings down and weed, then pulled her leggings up again. She and ds1 had also made a mess (splashed water from the sink) on the floor, so they apologised and started cleaning it up. DH asked her why she didn't go to the toilet, which is right next door. She said she didn't think she'd make it in time.

Strange. She has enough time to get in the bath and pull down her pants, but not enough to run into the loo?

I went down the street to get take away. When I pulled in the driveway and got out, I heard voices, very clearly, like the front door was open. Went inside, DD has unlocked and opened the front door - without DH being there.

This is a huge no no for us. Last year, DD let someone into the house, while I was down the other end. We've had heaps of talks since then and she knows she is not to open the door to anyone except me or DH. She thought she was being helpful opening the door for me but I wasn't even there yet.

The reason this is upsetting and annoying and frustrating is that over the weekend DH was outside a fair bit and we had been reiterating the other rule - don't go outside unless mummy or daddy is there. We've explained why - traffic on the road, what if someone reverses out of the driveway, etc... We'd JUST yesterday talked about not going outside or even opening the door... And she did it today.

DH was furious with her. He wanted to send her to bed without dinner. We couldn't think of a more suitable consequence.

The other silly thing she did today was she undid her car seat belt, while I was driving down the street. Again, we have explained over and over why this is not allowed. Unsafe. Etc. Yet she did it anyway. Her car seat has on occasion come unclipped and she's always told me straight away, but now it seems she's gone the other way.

She is always very sorry afterwards but we are getting sick of the "sorry"s. Tonight she started saying that she is just stupid, which I was quick to tell her was not true, she was just doing some silly things, that her brain wasn't in gear!

So, is this normal? What can we do?

[Arcadia]

Wow it sounds like some serious boundary pushing! I think what you're doing is the best thing to do - just be firm with the boundaries and reiterate your reasons.

I'm not a big one for punishments, but I can see how it's hard to have a natural consequence from her just opening the front door. Perhaps explain how the door keeps everyone safe and it is only for mummy and daddy and then seriously consider getting an additional lock up high (although this freaks me out too because what if she needed to escape because of a fire etc).

So yeah, I have no fresh ideas except to support your own course of action and to say wow, that is frustrating!

Eta: I meant to add: could she be trying to get dh's attention? If he responds strongly to her when angry, is she seeking that intense one on one with him? I would watch out for that kind of relationship anyway. Maybe get Dh to change tack a bit and take her somewhere special for positive time and try and tone down the anger response. Just explain the reason and move on and change the mood. I find my kids act up when I hold into things and I need to break the negativity cycle.

[OceanPrincess]

Thanks Arcadia... We have a security chain but she drags a chair across and gets up on it... Did I mention she is smart?

[Arcadia]

Just added to my original post, but wow, yeah the smart ones are the hardest to parent I think!

[HotI]

ZF had some success with her DD1 in seatbelt safety, by having a friend who was a firie talk to her about the importance of seat belts and not wanting to turn up to an accident and see DD1 or any other kids hurt. Do you know any police or other friends who she would talk to?

my dd wants to wee in the potty before bath/shower at the moment. it is kept in the bathroom, but dd has been using the toilet for almost a year now. not sure if it is because DS is becoming interested in the potty, or just a laziness/brain fade thing.

[diva det]

awww hugs hun
the last six months before they go to school is the hardest time. I was lucky i was warned about this time from a friend or I would be at a loss as well.
This boundary pushing is how they try and work out how they fit into the world and their role.
If found that the busier I kept the twins around this time- the less challenging their behavior was. Its the mental stimulation and the curiouristy to see what would happen if they did certain things that needs to be fed- aka the WHY time!!!
hang in there- it will pass but having pre-set consequences and defined boundaries really does help. In other words- a list of consequences that she knows will be put into place if she does a behaviour that is unacceptable. Also saves having to think up consequences on the spot
Also try and get her into some apps that may challenge her such as Reading eggs and Mathletics- use them as a reward for when she is doing what is deemed 'good behaviour' and hopefully the mental stimulation may help kerb the challenging behaviour!!!
hang in there - you have entered the WHY stage!!!

[Chocaholic]

My eldest was like this when he was that age and my youngest is behaving the same way now.

I found that they needed extra stimulation as daycare wasn't providing enough and they were/are ready for school. It is like they are pushing boundaries because they are bored and deliberately getting me angry/annoyed was an interesting pay off for them.

For my eldest, as soon as he started school, he went back to his normal self as he had new experiences to explore. For my youngest, he starts school next year so I have to ride it out. I have spoken to his carers and they said they often get the kids who are starting school the next year behaving this way for the last 4-6 months before the move up.

[AliBaby]

We have had some similar things happen here with DD.

The main one I have noticed is undoing the seatbelt just before I have parked the car. I have told her that is she does that then I will have to get her a harness again and put a lock on the seatbelt so that she cant put her own seatbelt on or take it off. She didn't like that idea (it seems to all be about power and control with her at the moment). We haven't had any issues with it again but I know I will need to follow through if she does do it again. I have explained the importance of seatbelts and we have spoken to someone (one of her carers) who was in a car accident and how having the seatbelt on stopped her from getting hurt.

I also have had her deliberately try to run away from me at the shops and laugh about it in recent weeks. I was so furious I took her straight to the car and I did lose my cool. Not a proud mummy moment but I just couldn't believe she did it when she knows its dangerous and that she had the nerve to laugh about it! grrrr!

Anyway in attempt to curb the behaviour I have started a sticker chart. There is no prize for getting a certain number of stickers, just the joy of seeing the chart fill up with stickers. She has 3 things she can get stickers for.
1. Listening to mummy and daddy
2. Cleaning up toys
3. Bedtime
I kept them broad so that it is easy to apply. It is working really well. We have spoken about how wonderful it feels when everyone is happy and that seeing all those stickers on the chart makes mummy and daddy smile. I even threw in that when Santa comes to the shops, she could take it to show him how good she has been. LOL!

Might be worth giving something like a sticker chart a go and see if that helps.

Let's hope things get better soon.

[wysiwyg]

To me it sounds normal - DD is a bit younger but have had similar type issues - one with wee - where I am sure she wee'd on floor in front of toilet just to see what it felt like, also doing things which she thinks are helpful or a surprise but not allowed things - like running round to the front of the house from the car without telling us (car and garage are a little way from house and we are on a main road - she is allowed to go on her own but must tell us).

I think the thing with your DD and the opening the front door, for them what they consider being helpful trumps all other info they have been given on the matter. (I think as adults in certain situations we do things too where we are so caught up in the being helpful or doing a favor etc we don't always think things through fully IYKWIM). They sort of want to demonstrate their independent thinking but don't always get it quite right. Was the seatbelt thing as you were coming home or going out? If coming home I can imagine DD would do that because she would think being helpful by being ready to get out of the car once home (as she can sometimes be a real pain about getting out) - and even though she knows is not safe to do it at that moment in time she comes up with this great idea of being helpful forgets all that.

DD is also doing things that she knows are wrong and then having a funny reaction (tonight she lashed out at DS without any provocation (who she is actually extremely tolerant of considering his current penchant for grabbing her hair and scramming her face) - then was crying her eyes out saying "slap me mummy, slap me hard - please slap me, I really want you to slap me". No idea what was going through her head - but you could almost see the cogs going round in her brain - that she wanted to test my reaction both to her hitting DS and to her wanting to be slapped - is like she does these things to store up the reaction so she knows for future reference or something.

I don't really have any useful ways of dealing with it though - I hadn't really thought of it as pushing boundaries more of a just coming up with the wrong answer to a set of circumstances. With DD with the running round to front of house thing which has done twice so far - the second time I just tried to explain that although was nice that she wanted to be helpful and good by getting to front door without a fuss, it only was helpful if she told me because otherwise I would worry. She seems to get it now. I think of them a bit like mini computers sometimes, e.g. she knew running to front door was wrong, but knows helping mummy is good - her brain computes it is better to be good so will help mummy by running to front door, but now has tried it and I have explained making mummy worry is wrong - her brain is getting to grips with evaluating multiple criteria and so far is making right decision.

[OceanPrincess]

Some really good ideas here.

Ali thanks so much. You reminded me we had talked about a chart but I never got around to making it. I will do that tomorrow. We were going to put on it keep room tidy, empty and load dishwasher... And something else. I forget. Bad mummy. Anyway. I will do that.

Thanks for all the reassurance that the six months before school can be the hardest. I really hope that's it... Like I said, she's smart, so the boredom thing rings true. I'm going to look into reading eggs... Mathletics...

And I'm going to ask about the seatbelt lock thing. Actually I will tell DD about it and see if that helps.

Edit: wysiwyg, thanks, just saw your response... That rings true, wanting to help... It's possible she heard the car (loud Diesel engine) and thought she was helping. The seatbelt was on the way home from kinder but we were up on the main road that goes from the highway down to my street (if you remember how far up that is?) so we were only about half way home. Don't know.

Ok, phew, might need to readdress things. This needs thinking...

[Miss.September]

Do you, DH and DD get some time together?

We found that DD1's behaviour was going down the toilet earlier this year, so we decided on movie night. We endeavour to put DD2 to bed, then we pick a movie she hasn't seen, get a bag of potato chips and curl up. It's past her bedtime but she can stay up, her little sister is in bed and it's just special time with us where she feels a bit grown up.

She only gets it if she has good behaviour (mostly!), throughout the week. It works really well as both a reason for her to try and do the tasks we set (like making her bed, putting placemats on the table) and just because she absolutely loves it. I told MummyNaomi about it and I know they are doing it with DS too - hopefully she pops in with how it's going.

[MLR1901]

I might get booed here but maybe explaining why she can't do x, and explain the shock factor. Like opening the door she might let someone in who inst very nice, or younger siblings might run outside and get hurt. Take the reasoning of her out of the picture.
My friends DD, 3.5, they had taken her to the pool, in the change room, family room, with her Dad. He changed her and was changing himself, she decided up run out bathers half on, to the foyer and yelling 'No Daddy No!'
So her dad quietly went out got her, packed up their belongings and took her home in silence. She said 'Daddy upset with me' knowing very well what's she's done.
He then sat her down to explain what could have happened, with a bit if shock factor - ie: someone could have taken you, you could have hurt yourself,
Funny enough since that incident this DD has been very well behaved and is now asking if I do this what happens etc.

[~ Zarava Flutterby ~]

HotI is right about the car, DD1 unbuckled herself while we were at her house (I was going back to get DD2) I told her off then put the shock value on her.

What happens if you unbuckle your seatbelt while I am driving & I have an accident?
You could be hurt or you could fly out of the car, you could die!

What if HotI or her DH has to come to the accident & has to find you dead?

It was probably quite harsh but having HotI say how much she would be upset & that accidents like that do happen has helped... She's never taken her belt off unless I've told her to now.

In regards to general attitude she is pushing the boundaries big time, things she knows are wrong, talking back.
I've got a feeling it's an age thing.
At the moment in trying positive reinforcement, rewards & trying NOT to yell.

[Heaven]

I think my view is a bit different to most people's so I'll just tell you what I would do/ how I would view it if it were me

So, my DD1 (4.5yrs) is pretty much the same. I think it's normal for this age. Just thinking of yesterday I have an example. I let them play outside independently a lot of the time; so they were out there and I was inside doing things and I could hear them in the background so I knew they were alright. Then DD2 comes in and tells me she needs a paint brush. I go out to investigate and DD1 is painting the cubby house with red paint using a dustpan brush :/ She knows you only paint on paper/cardboard, etc and that she needs to ask me before getting the paints down, and that you definitely do not paint toys! Yet, she still did it.

I am not a fan of punishment or rewards so there was no punishment for what she did. We just talked about why she shouldn't do that and I reminded her that she needs to ask me before getting the paints down. She then said 'sorry' to me unprompted. If I had of punished her instead (which I do sometimes when I lose my cool, usually just taking away her toy or something) she would have cried, gotten angry, maybe ran away, and definitely not listened to my reasoning so would probably do it again (but been more sneaky about it). And if I had wanted her to say sorry after that I would have to have made her. When I first decided to try this it went against how my parents had bought me up and I felt like I would be letting her get away with it and that she wouldn't listen to me. But I have been surprised to not find that at all. Actually the opposite: she listens and understands, she apologies when she does something wrong, she tells the truth most of the time, she is not sneaky, etc. I just mainly try to react to things calmly and I get a much better outcome then when I am angry (though sometimes that is super hard).

Overall, I just take a different view of her behaviour. I don't see any of it as being deliberately 'naughty' or destructive or trying to get a reaction. She knows the rules, it's just sometimes she gets an awesome idea and she is so excited about it that it's hard for her to stop and think about the consequences (I mean really, painting the cubby did look like fun, LOL). She makes mistakes, like anyone, and she often makes them more than once before she fully understands! It's a pretty complex thing for a little kid being able to weigh up all the pro's and con's of your actions (especially when you're excited and focused). A lot of the time she gets it right, but she also sometimes makes mistakes. And I think how I deal with that can help her learn and make better decisions in the future. I can try and enforce compliance by punishment, or we can have an honest discussion about why that was the wrong thing to do, why she did it, what she could do next time, and how she could fix it now. The second option is working out really well for us right now

I hope something in there was helpful! LOL.

[Janie71]

OP my DD is doing much the same at the moment. I think it really is partly that they are bored and ready for the extra challenge of school x

[OceanPrincess]

Janie we should get these girls together again for a play, expend some energy

Heaven, I love that philosophy, and I've been really trying that sort of approach with things like being rude or too rough with her brothers, we just talk about her actions and how it can make me or her brothers feel. We do talk about consequence and how the consequence for those things is not being able to play with them, that if she's mean, they will choose not to play with her. I've been talking about "treat others how you want to be treated".

And the same for things like drawing where she shouldn't. Talk about it and consequence is no drawing for a short time.

But safety things like the seat belt and the door? I don't know how to apply it.

I tried to sit down and talk to her about it and ask why she did those things but she couldn't really explain.

[Jennifer13]

OP, I think it's normal and developmental. My DD1 is 7 and still gets distracted and forgets things that she knows she's supposed to do from time to time. Drives me batty! Simple things like not putting hair brushes away where they go (sounds minor, but she's lost three...!), not remembering things that she knows are 'rules'.

It does pass, on the whole, DD1 is now very responsible and can be trusted to look after things pretty well for her age.

I think consequences really do have to fit the behaviour itself. I have always tried to apply this rule (although sometimes I get really stuck and it's a pretty imaginative link to the consequence!). Some things are just memory issues, like Heaven said. They get distracted or excited and just forget your previous instructions. I'd just reiterate why the rule is so important - but really make sure you are stopping, getting at her level and as much as possible showing her why it's dangerous/not a good idea. So in the car, show her how far down she would fall and what she could hit her head on, explain how sometimes a car might need to stop very suddenly and you really don't want her to get hurt, etc. It's hard to be patient when you're getting home/driving, but looking her in the eye and talking calmly might just reiterate it better.

DD2 could undo her seatbelt at 6 mths. I can see a lot of boundary pushing in her future...

[Heaven]

But safety things like the seat belt and the door? I don't know how to apply it.

I tried to sit down and talk to her about it and ask why she did those things but she couldn't really explain.

I would just do it exactly the same way. But also maybe make sure she can't get out the front door JIC she forgets (a lock higher up or something?). DD1 once tried to open the door for someone when I was in the shower. Luckily she couldn't actually do it because it was deadlocked and the keys were out. We talked about it and she hasn't tried again. She also can't actually undo her seat belt herself, or else hasn't tried, so we haven't dealt with that either. We have a door from the house to the garage that has no lock though and after talking with the girls about it numerous times they now know they are never allowed to open that door. I'm scared that DH will be reversing and they'll run out there or something. They don't touch it now but I still make sure I can see them whenever someone is coming or going JIC. So, I would just accept that there is going to be a few mistakes or slip-ups and keep stressing how important the safety things are, while also making sure that they can't actually do anything too dangerous.

I guess I'm mainly just saying that you're not doing anything wrong. And neither is she, she is acting like a typical 4 year old. So I would just keep doing what you're doing, responding calmly, talking with her about it. I would also make sure to let her know how her actions make you or others feel (i.e. you were really scared when she opened the door because she could have gotten really hurt). She will eventually get it, she's a very clever cookie