Atheism/agnosticism?

[Roryrory]

I know this is totally not religious but rather the antithesis of it, but could there be a forum for those of us who are atheistss or agnostics? ATM I am wrestling between the two (DH has just read Richard Dawkin's "The God Delusion" which I have started and we have had some interesting debates aeound issues of belief and non-belief, faith and so on. Like I said, it is not really a religion but kinda fits into this broad topic....

[Heaven]

Hi Roryrory. Can you explain what agnosticism is? I never really understood. I've looked it up but I still don't get it, lol. Is it that you don't believe that humans can know who God is? Ok that doesn't make sense I don't think. I won't even try to guess, lol.

[Ashlee]

I'm in the same boat Rory, I'd like to learn a bit more on both of these so I can make an informed decision.

[C~Q]

I think agnosticism is where you believe in "something", you're just not sure what!

[Roryrory]

I am pretty sure Atheists believe there is no God, but Agnostics are saying "I don't know either way but I am keeping an open mind, but at the moment I have no proof of a God". Hence why I would like to have this discussion LOL
I am gonna read The God Delusion and keep thinking about it - I wonder if there is anyone else out there who has read it yet?

Rachel, SNAP

[Bathsheba]

Um, I'm too scared to LOL

ETA: just to clarify... I guess I am too scared by the prospect of there being no God. When I think of all the suffering that mankind endures... if I was to be told that it was all for nothing then I don't think I could deal with it. I think I would just want to escape from life as it is right now... what is the point of it all... would send me barmy LOL

ETA again: I don't want to offend anyone... I agree an agnostic thread would be good.... I like having my beliefs questioned... just not by anyone too charismatic LOL

[Roryrory]

LOL Bath - Dawkins said in his preface that he has actually aimed his book at practicing members of the established Christian clergy - he said he feels he has done his job if after reading his book he turns them into non-believers!
A big call, but that's kind of what appears to me about the book so much. DH got out my old Bible and reference books and kept cross-chcking some of the passages because he was so amazed about what was said......

[Bathsheba]

*stomach sinking* does he really want to convert everyone to becoming non-believers? I thought it was just a book about his theory...

I'm not sure I'd want to live in a world without Christian/religous values... but each to their own i guess. What I like about most religions is that there is an agreed set of rules that are not man-made. They are rules that benefit everyone. If mankind says "there is no higher authority than other men" then what's to stop each and every man just making up his own set of moral rules to live by. Law of the Jungle and all... to me it's like a houseful of children saying "we can look after ourselves... don't need boring parents..."

I know you are very hard to offend Rory Please feel free to argue my point! And sorry to all the other atheists/agnostics... I really don't mean to offend. I respect your right to disbelieve.

ETA: maybe I should read the book... if my beliefs are strong enough they should withstand it.

[Ginger]

my dad has read the book rory and thinks it's great, he has explained some of it to me, and i've sort of flicked through it, read the first chapter when i was at his house. it's very interesting reading. i think there's been some recent docos on tv by the same author too??

[Matryoshka]

We don't believe there is a God, for different reasons. I can't speak for my dh but my personal belief is in the scientific creation of the earth and i believe in the earths own higher power. I often speak to the earth in asking for guidance but i don't view this as a god, more a connecting with my inner self as i see myself as part of the earth.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I dislike Dawkins' writing - I have a few of his books and while The Selfish Gene is quite brilliant, once you get past the Dawkins-ness of it, The Blind Watchmaker is impossible to read and I feel that The God Delusion is more of the same. By all means argue against God, but not by belittling believers. I think Dawkins should shut up and give his mouth a chance, but to write many books on that is just not on.

BTW, I have no beef with Douglas Adams creating book titles of "Where God Went Wrong" and "More of God's Greatest Mistakes" - after all, without His perspective things can and do look a bit daft from down here. I don't mind claims that the soul is located on chromosome 2 - if that's your belief you are entitled to it. You just are not entitled to attack me for believing something else.

Can you imagine Dawkins writin this in a Muslim country? Oooh, that thought made me happy!

[Tyige]

I'm atheist. I think that this is a good idea to start a thread on atheists/agnostics. There are many many people who are atheists or agnostics or not sure.

I am pretty sure Atheists believe there is no God, but Agnostics are saying "I don't know either way but I am keeping an open mind, but at the moment I have no proof of a God".

But then again I don't know. When I see "God" I'll believe. My Dad has done alot of research into god jesus all the above and I have done a bit. Following family disputes over religion. To us there just isn't enough "proof" that there is a god.

Sorry to offend is I have. If I have


Ellie

[Roryrory]

No offence at all Bath

I'm not sure I'd want to live in a world without Christian/religous values

Actually the reason DH kept referring to the Bible while reading the book is Dawkins is apparently big on pointing out that there is alot in the Bible that we wouldn't like to follow, some quite nasty stuff in the Old Testament for example.

Ourlux what you are referring to seems to be what Dawkinds refers to as Einsteinian/Darwinian spirituality (from memory). ie: it is possible to be totally in love with and in awe of the power of the universe without believing in a God.

Gracie the doco was all about the evils of religion as a whole I think. I think the tag line was something like "imagine September 11 without religion".

Ryn I haven't read the book yet but I don't think he would be belittling believers. But then again it is probably pretty hard to make a rational case for atheism without in some way offending those who beleive in God. Apparently there is a book called "The Case for Jesus" which I intend to read afterwards, just to get a balanced view.

ETA: Ellie I am glad someone else thinks like me in terms of a discussion like this. I don't mean to offend either, and personally don't see how atheists discussing atheism could be any less offensive to, say, a Hindu who believes in a myriad of Gods listening to a Chirstian discuss the One True God.

[Heaven]

Yeah, I thought that he was kind of 'belittling believers' so that's why I haven't read it. I have read some articles and interviews with him about it and he has called people 'stupid' in one of them I'm pretty sure. That wasn't very nice. I think if you have to resort to that kind of stuff then you really musn't have a very good argument.

Just wanted to say I think it's really good you're going to read both sides to make an informed choice, coz you can get caught up in one side or the other if people make good arguments that maybe you don't know much about or they're really charismatic people. I know I tend to get hooked on fads and believe things because of maybe one article I've read once without investigating further, lol. Oh an I just wanted to say a good book I read was 'A spectator's guide to Jesus: the man from Nazareth' (for the other side obviously).
Good luck!! Let us know how the God Delusion book is.

[Ginger]

i'd be keen to contribute and share on a thread like this too. don't want to offend anyone, but believe that our beliefs should be considered too. my belief system is pretty similar to ourlux's. never knew it had a name (thnks rory). would love to discuss it a bit more...sometimes it's hard to talk to people outside of my immediate family (dad and brothers) about this. in laws are catholics and i sense we're going to have a small problem coming up soon when it comes to them wanting to christen our child...

[paradise lost]

It seems obvious to me that there is a God, but i don't believe the Christian model of Godhood. To me God is more like a substance.

Consider for a moment that God = water. All life began in and came from the water of the primordial swamps (if you believe evolutionary theory, which is a whole other problem for another time). Water is omnipresent and omnipotent. Without it there is no life and yet as the tsunamis of recent times have shown us the power of water can be violently destructive in the extreme. All of us come from the water of our mother's womb, and are made mainly of water. Water is life. Water sustains physically as Love does emotionally. Without Love one is lonely, without water one is dead.

I do not hold this to be my truth that i live by, i am still very much a the stage of considering these things. But god as the indescribable substance in the fabric of reality which drives life makes ALOT more sense to me than a fatherly figure churning out rules.

Also FWIW i do not think morality is tied to organised religion. I know many, many moral athiests. The rejection of or questioning of God need not mean the departure from morality. Because i am obtuse and a purist in fact, and probably because i am my father's daughter, i find more to admire in someone who does right because they strive to do right than someone who does right because they fear hell or damnation. The former seems more selfless to me somehow, if one can do right for right's sake and not for any personal potential spiritual gain or loss. My ideals are complex though, and not much use for real life.

Bx

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I don't see why evolution and creation have to be at loggerheads - I believe that God created all of us and the Biblical view of creation is remarkably similar to the evolutionary view of stuff - so why couldn't God have used evolution?

Of course you can argue there is no God without belittling and upsetting believers - I am not upset by someone saying there is no God. I do think that it is not on to say there is no God and anyone who states otherwise is really stupid.

I'm a scientist and enjoy rational debate on the subject. But then, I enjoy rational debate - any name-calling from either side bores me!

[Matryoshka]

That's what i was getting at Hoobley by referring to the earth as what i have faith in. I don't visualise anything particular when i seek guidance, its more a sensation i feel when i abandon all thought and just be mindless.... meditation in a way. The water is a good analogy.