thread: Do you believe in evolution or what your holy book says?

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  1. #1
    Registered User

    Dec 2006
    In the Angelic Realm
    1,675

    I'm just going to change the topic AGAIN (Sorry!)

    I'm just reading a book called "What everyone needs to know about Islam" which i am finding very interesting.

    It says that we are all the children from the one God. Muslim's Allah and the Christain's God and the Jewish God are all the SAME God. According to the book. And this is what i believe too. There is only one God and we all share Him.

    I had a conversation with a fellow co-worker who is Presbytarian (sp??) and asked him if he believed that our God was the indeed the same God. And he said no. The Christain God is different and so is the Muslim God.

    What do you believe??

  2. #2
    BellyBelly Life Subscriber

    Feb 2006
    South Eastern Suburbs, Vic
    6,054

    Same God, but we believe different things about him. For example, Christians believe that Jesus is God, and I think Muslims (and maybe Jews?) believe that he's a prophet.

  3. #3
    Registered User

    Dec 2006
    In the Angelic Realm
    1,675

    Same God, but we believe different things about him. For example, Christians believe that Jesus is God, and I think Muslims (and maybe Jews?) believe that he's a prophet.
    I appreciate your thoughts. But i have a question for you. I just want to learn more that's all. Not attacking any religion here.

    If Jesus is God, then why do i sometimes hear that Jesus is the "son" of God.

    Plus, how do i/we change the title of this thread?? I think it should be called something like "Godly discussions"

  4. #4
    Registered User

    Mar 2007
    6,900

    TD- I see no one has answered your question yet, probably bc the trinity is so hard to explain!!
    Basically, God is 3 'parts' - the father, the son, and the holy spirit. They are all the one God but he exists as 3 persons. Jesus is the part of God called the Son. Not the same as in a human father and son but he is called this because he is God in human form and was created in Mary through the Holy Spirit.
    I'm not very good at explaining it and it's very confusing but I hope that makes a little sense!!

    Luke 1:
    34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
    35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be calleda the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37 For nothing is impossible with God.”
    38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.” Then the angel left her.
    Hebrews 1:3
    3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

  5. #5

    Nov 2007
    Earth
    4,434

    Same God, but we believe different things about him. For example, Christians believe that Jesus is God, and I think Muslims (and maybe Jews?) believe that he's a prophet.
    Just to clarify this, JW's don't believe in the Trinity, they believe Jesus is the Son of God, not God Himself.

  6. #6
    BellyBelly Member

    Jul 2009
    somewhere
    397

    ok i can only speak for myself here and this is form a christian point of view

    I beleive that there is only one true God now there are many other gods i mean you can make a tree or a statue of something your god if you want to but to me there is just one true God that created the universe i will leave it at that as i dont want to preach.

  7. #7
    Registered User

    Aug 2008
    Melbourne City
    390

    Post

    There is one God. Everyone believes in the same God but I guess some religions don't want to share the same God.

    Nelle-

    You are right. We (Muslims) believe Jesus is a Prophet.

  8. #8
    Registered User

    Apr 2009
    Vic
    337

    I had a conversation with a fellow co-worker who is Presbytarian (sp??) and asked him if he believed that our God was the indeed the same God. And he said no. The Christain God is different and so is the Muslim God.

    What do you believe??
    The God is the same (there is only 1 true God), but the way of worship and the beliefs are very different.

    christians worship according to the direction given by Jesus Christ, and Muslims worship according to the directions given by Mohammud.

    Muslims believe both of these men are/were prophets sent by God, so the question is, to which one should we listen? Christians listen to Jesus because of the sacrifice that he gave in order to bring us closer to God. And because of Jesus sacrifice, God elevated him to a position above all others (including mohammad)

    So yes, we worship the same God, but our method is very different.

  9. #9
    Registered User

    Oct 2009
    VIC
    881

    I believe in evoloution, considering there is scientific proof of this.
    I do not believe all the "magic" stuff it just does not seem in the slightest part possible, I think the bible has been made from chinese whispers along the way, it may well have started with a great man by the name of jesus whom was a great healer ie,Doctor..
    I then believe over time its been more and more elaborated on.

  10. #10
    Registered User

    Oct 2007
    Brissy
    2,208

    Raising-dancers - evolution actually hasn't been proven, at this stage it is just a theory, like creation.

    As for the bible being chinese whispers - well there have been old old copies found (I think the oldest complete Hebrew bible was from AD 1008) and the variations between copies is minimal.
    There were some scrolls found in 1947 (the Dead Sea Scrolls) containing text of 830 books - 202 of them biblical texts. There was a community living in that area from 250BC till about 68AD - so super super early, and again, the variations minimal. The sort of variations we are talking about are like spelling differences (eg color/colour)

    Anyway, I think the bible - if you look into it - is very credible as a historical text. Especially the New Testament!

  11. #11
    Registered User

    Nov 2005
    Ontario, Canada
    1,624

    I believe in the biblical account of creation.
    Evolution is a theory. It is not proven fact, and it must be accepted by faith just like creation must be accepted by faith. And, given the order, beauty and precise balance of the world out there, I think the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of an intelligent Creator, rather than random chance.

    About God - TD, you did hit on one of the most difficult things to understand about what the Bible says about God. It clearly says he is one, and yet it also clearly shows that there are three "persons" working as God, and being worshipped as God - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So we believe in the Trinity - three persons, one being. All God.

  12. #12
    Registered User

    Jul 2008
    summer street
    2,708

    Wow, great thread.

    I am concerned about the concept that women have pain in childbirth because of eve's 'fall'. It seems like a patriarchal oppression of women through the physiology of their bodies. The idea that god says women must feel pain seems to deny us the opportunity to experience child birth beyond pain- which I believe I did achieve. To think that birth=pain plays into medical intervention and the paternal model of care we have today.

    I would be interested to hear if Muslims also take this view on childbirth.

    As for evolution, I am ok with a creationist idea that god created all things, but I do believe evolution has occurred...whether god is responsible for that doesn't matter to me...evolution of animals seems logical to me.

    I have rejectEd a lot of my Christian upbringing so I hope not to offend anyone. The discussion so far has been awesome.

  13. #13
    Registered User

    Mar 2007
    6,900


    I am concerned about the concept that women have pain in childbirth because of eve's 'fall'. It seems like a patriarchal oppression of women through the physiology of their bodies. The idea that god says women must feel pain seems to deny us the opportunity to experience child birth beyond pain- which I believe I did achieve. To think that birth=pain plays into medical intervention and the paternal model of care we have today.
    I remember reading something on this a while ago and I posted it in another thread:

    The Bible clearly teaches that giving birth is a blessing to women. Although some women have pain in labor and birth for a variety of causes, there is nothing in either the Bible or the Jewish Talmud to indicate that such pain is either necessary or normal.
    The so-called "curse of Eve", cannot be traced to the Scriptures or to early Judaism. It is first found in distorted Christian teachings of the third and fourth centuries A.D. Christian teachings promulgated that abstinence, even in marriage, was the way to salvation. A woman had to groan in labor to atone for her "sin" of marital sex. This teaching persisted for over a thousand years. When chloroform was discovered by Sir James Simpson in the early 19th century for use in cases of difficult childbirth, there was an outcry from the Christian church. This was construed as a blasphemous attempt to rebel against the curse that God had laid upon Eve. Even Queen Victoria in the late 19th century was criticized heavily for having used anesthesia, for having gone against the dictates of the "Christian" teachings with the birth of her 8th child.
    Pain during child birth was actually a rare occurrence in our ancient ancestry. Pain and death was not associated with childbirth until the 16th and 17th century when people began to flock to the cities. Midwives, or wise women, were burned at the stake and falsely accused of witchcraft throughout Europe, especially if they administered any form of pain relief. They were admonished to make the women suffer. The masses of people no longer lived off of the blessings of the land, but used coin to trade for food, goods and services. The decline in health and sanitation until the 1940's, and the epidemics of child bed fever as women began delivering in the "houses of charity" (the precursor for the modern day hospital) created unhealthy conditions for our great great grandmothers to birth in.
    The Bible does not degrade womanhood. It does not label child bearing as a curse. It is the interpretation of the words in the Bible that we must look at.
    Genesis 3:16 is the passage commonly quoted by those who believe women have been "cursed to give birth in pain". That it is Eves punishment for having eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
    The word translated as "sorrow" or "pain" is the Hebrew word estev. This word is also used when God curses Adam. This word is accurately translated as sorrow. Let's look at this Bible verse from the New Revised Standard Version. Genesis 3:16-17:To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply your pangs (estev) in childbearing; in pain (estev) you shall bring forth children."
    And to the man He said, "...cursed is the ground because of you; in toil (estev) shall you eat of it all the days of your life..."

    When the Hebrew word is translated as "pain" for the woman and "toil" for the man, it is clear that the translator's cultural beliefs have biased his judgment as a scholar of the text. The best description of giving birth is toil, or labor.
    Estev is also translated as "toil" in Proverbs 5:10, 10:22, Isaiah 68:3 and elsewhere. Again, it is translated as "toil" in Chronicles 4:9, which is the only verse in the entire bible that uses estev in connection with the actual birth of a child. To be consistent with other usage of estev in the Bible, Genesis 3:16 should be translated as toil.


    And Jabez was more honorable than his brethren: and his mother called his name Jabez (which means "Height"), saying, Because I bare him with toil (estev).

    Estev is used 16 times throughout the Bible. And not once does it convey the meaning of pain for which we are made to believe in Genesis 3:16. Rabbi Hirsch says: "Estev is only a mental pain and hurt feelings or worry...The root is...a modification of forsaken...the feeling that we have to give up something that we would have liked to keep, or to have attained."
    This prevailing thought that child birth is a curse did not originate in Judaism.
    Those of us who are already mothers know what we have given up. Our bodies are fatter, we have stretch marks, we lose sleep, we put our needs second to our offspring's wishes and desires, and our children, while an immense joy who cultivate our depth of love, try our patience and find ways to grieve our hearts. Perhaps this pain of childbirth is not the day spent in labor, but the life time of nurturing a child and letting go as that child reaches maturity and flies away from the nest. Perhaps it is the ups and downs of parenting with it's laughter and tears and merry-go-round of emotions.
    When Eve gives birth she announces it with Joy! Every account of birth in the Bible is one of joy. Leah praises God at the births of her children. At the birth of Joseph, Rachel exclaims happily, "The Lord has given me another son!"

  14. #14
    Registered User

    Apr 2009
    Vic
    337

    Wow, great thread.

    I am concerned about the concept that women have pain in childbirth because of eve's 'fall'. It seems like a patriarchal oppression of women through the physiology of their bodies. The idea that god says women must feel pain seems to deny us the opportunity to experience child birth beyond pain- which I believe I did achieve. To think that birth=pain plays into medical intervention and the paternal model of care we have today.
    I had a real struggle in coming to terms with the account in genesis about this 'curse'

    Gen 3:16 “To the woman he said: ‘I shall greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in birth pangs you will bring forth children..."

    When i originally read the text, like most people, I assumed it was saying that God had deliberately imposed childbirth pain as a punishment on eve.

    However, the context of this passage is really focusing on the effects of 'sin' So its actually due to sin that women would find childbirth increasingly difficult and more painful. This is because our bodies have been deteriorating since the creation of Adam and Eve and with that deterioration comes more physical ailments which would cause problems for the complicated processes of pregnancy and childbirth. Just look at the number of miscarriages for example...this is pregnancy gone wrong due to genetics.

    Im sure that Eve experienced some discomfort, but certainly nothing like what we experience today. If you've ever seen animals give birth im sure you'd agree that they do not appear to experience great pain like us.

    In terms of evolution, if evolution is supposed to be 'improving' on nature, then surely human childbirth is an example where evolution is not really doing what its theorized to do.
    Last edited by Peg; May 6th, 2010 at 09:25 PM.