Humanism

[Aimz]

I think there are lots of classes that have morals and ethics built into them anyway and also parents teach the same values at home. But what I'm trying to get at is religion classes teach these ethics/values/morals in a more structured, easy to understand way for all age groups. Kids can relate to the stories told.

I think it's important for those non religious kids to get the same sort of "structure" in terms of their own belief system.

[Inanna]

I think it's an interesting concept. I have always thought it disrespectful how only Christianity is taught in schools (1 school my DD13 attended had Bahai classes). I think Humanisim teaches responsibility for ones actions - I am a firm believer in this. However, I also have a deeper personal spirituality - but like Humanists I don't believe in God as a supreme ruler who is responsible for all of my failings and credits!

I reject religion - but follow a more Buddhist principle on life. I grew up with a very fundamentalist Christian mother - it was that that bore me a need to educate myself on all forms of belief systems.

My children attend a neo humanist philosophy (Ananda Marga) based primary school - I couldn't ask for a safer more nurturing environment for my children to be educated in.

[Trillian]

This is essentially how I choose to live my life, but to follow it stringently or to say "I am a Humanist" would be hypocritical because I'm a farmer - we do have 'dominion' over animals on our farm and slaughter them etc as well as farm the land that was cleared for that purpose (although in my defense we do farm as environmentally friendly as we can with minimum tillage etc). I am all for what they are going to do in VIC schools and I really hope that they see fit to introduce the same here in NSW. BUT I would still make my children attend Scripture classes as they do now because even though I am not religious, DH and I think it is important that they attend if only to learn that other people have a different belief system to what we do. I think my eldest child in particular would thrive in a class based on Humanism - it would raise all the things that he often ponders over with me. I think it's important that schools embrace this addition to education because it does give us as parents choice in how we want our children taught outside the home. However I do not agree with Religious education being taught in schools as a defined religion (basically where all the nitty-gritty of religious core beliefs are taught such as Christianity and Catholocism) as Church and State should be kept separate and if you want your child to have a religious education, then you send them to a religious school kwim? But then if you wer that way inclined you would be more likely to send them to a religious school in the first place.

[suse]

I agree with you there Trillian - I want my child to be taught about religion, I don't want him being taught to be religious (unless that is the path he chooses to follow of his own volition). I think that it is as important for people of faith to learn that atheism/agnosticism is a valid belief system as it is for those without faith to respect those who follow a religion. Although this is by no means the norm, I have encountered some who believe that faith is a prerequisite to morality - a perception that disturbs me greatly. Perhaps a greater understanding of the tenets of a stance such as Humanism would help to address such perceptions.

[Trillian]

You're onto something there Suse, I've experienced that too, that because I don't have a religion, or follow one, then how can I possible have as many morals and live as good a life as someone who does. It would be interesting to see how this is handled (meaning the advent of this as an alternative to be taught) by those of a strong religious background that they can accept that you can still have a perfectly functioning morals/belief system yet not have God in your life to do it.

[Inanna]

Me three - I find it curious that there is a large movement in our society that if we are not Christian Church goers we simply don't have good values/morals. I had a friend of my DD13 mother visit my house (DD13 has Aspergers and as such behavioural issues) and when she saw Buddha sitting atop my loungeroom said: "maybe if you subscribed to Christian values you wouldn't have these problems with her"... I almost choked on my Chai! I kindly and respectfully told her that my "values" dn't extend to characater judgeents based on ones religious/spiritual or ethical value systems. (she is a JW - so Christian based).

This certainly isn't a reflection on her religion but on her own values - but that experience highlighted to me how narrow some people are in their characters.

My children's pseudo grandparents (he is an Anglican minister) have openly run down the school my children attend - saying it is a cult and they will never be employed or be accepted into the army... That learning meditation and yoga is pointless - "and all of that singing and dancing that those kids do is just silly..." When my son won an award for excellence in Maths they scoffed and said "it's not a real school"...

Folk can be and sadly are just plain unkind and narrow. How do we change it. We change ourselves. We don't react to unkindness with more unkindness - we stand firm in our values and gently relay them to others...

I think Humanisim in school isn't just a good thing - it's a necessary one!

[Trillian]

Deb, that's really sad that you've had to deal with people who, for all intents and purposes, are good people, but they hold such a narrow minded and almost bigoted view of how you raise your children and choose to educate them simply because it is based on something that is different to their own experience.

Amy, did your Father and Grandfather ever come across difficulties when people realised what ideology they subscribed to?

[Aimz]

I live in a regional town which one from a city would call "small" (pop. 50,000). Our community is predominantly Christian. The mentality of “faith equals morals” that Suse raised runs deep here and you would not shout "I am an Atheist/Humanist" to the skies unless you were willing to cop a lot of negative reactions. As an example - my workplace's Board says a prayer at the commencement of each meeting. It is engrained in the people here.

What I hope will come of this new curriculum is the understanding that Atheism/Humanism also carries with it a set of principles/morals/values/ethics. It is not just a shunning of God - it is just a belief that there is no divine power over people's actions but that people strive to be good on their own merits. That is not to say that we are all morally bankrupt - we just don't have a higher power that drives us. I don’t believe that morals or ethics have any necessary connection with religion.

It angers me that in one article on this topic a researcher made the statement “If you go there, where do you stop? What about witchcraft or Satanism? If you accredit humanism, then those things would have an equal claim to be taught in schools". I mean come on. We’re not talking about devil worship here – we’re talking about the teaching of good ethics without the notion of a divine being. It’s not witchcraft!! And to even make a correlation with Humanism and Witchcraft is ridiculous seeing as Humanists would also reject this as it is full of supernaturalism and Satanism is the worship of another entity which cannot be proven to exist.

I hope once it proves to be successful in Victoria that it will move onto other states. I would love to see it here in NSW. I agree that this is something we NEED. If we’re going to teach our kids about ALL religious groups and belief systems then Atheism/Humanism should be one of them. It’s not about taking God out of schools - it’s about introducing choice. It should be offered as an alternative.

Humanism is a legitimate world view just as Catholicism, Anglicanism or Islam is. None is more provable than the other. We are a multi-cultural society which means we are a multi-faith society and that has to include the acceptance of non religious belief systems.

[Trillian]

IKWYM about ingrained beliefs and refusal to acknowledge that others have merit as a separate entity - especially since locally there has been a rise in the all-singing-all-dancing evangelical religions. I do find it somewhat bemusing that those that follow a Christian belief system cannot allow themselves to accept that there are other doctrines that are just as good, but different to their own. I think a lot of criticism of other religions/ideologies etc comes forth because they simply do not understand it or it makes them question their own beliefs. It concerns me that there would be some who would be more than happy to see things stay as they are and not introduce Humanism into schools - but what makes their *claim* on RE in schools just as valid? It's like saying 'ours is better than yours' and that is a scary road to start travelling down.

[Inanna]

I think personally that behind all racisim, religionisim etc is fear of the unknown. I too have a giggle when I hear this Christian religion biting about that Christian religion... I think that bigotry is given it's fertiliser with fear...

Us humans find it difficult to embrace that which is different - and how many wars has that caused???

[Aimz]

Another of the Humanism Core Principles is relevant here...

Children shall not be subjected to physical and mental abuse, nor to religious or political indoctrination by parents or others. The rights of children should be codified in a charter of children's' rights.

While parents, guardians and elders have a responsibility towards their children (and vice versa) this responsibility does not give a carte blanche for them. Today most legal jurisdiction interdict physical and sexual abuse of children by anybody including parents. This is as should be. But what the law does not do is to prevent the political and religious indoctrination of children. Religions are allowed to conduct ceremonies like Baptism in Christianity, circumcision in Judaism and Islam and the thread ceremony of Hinduism. Children are incapable of understanding what is done to them in such ceremonies. Humanists should deny the existence of such rights for parents, priests and the like. This rule does not mean that children should not be inculcated in ethical standards. But these should be a basic non-religious kind of ethical standards. There is still no formal charter of Children's' Rights. The biggest impediment to the creation of such a charter will come not from theists who will not give up their right to automatically impose their religion on their children.

It doesn't say anything about teaching ALL religions to children, which is what I will personally be doing - so I don't agree completely with this statement. But the part about religious groups feeling it's their right to impose their beliefs onto children is just so true - its a general assumption that this will happen if you belong to one of those groups. But I do agree with the part about only teaching basic ethical standards to a child which are non religious - Athiests and the like do this anyway - at least that's how I was raised.

[Trillian]

I agree with that completely. This is the reason why My siblings and I were never baptised/christened because Mum and Dad were different religions (mum was a presbyterian and dad was Lutheran) and they couldn't agree on which one, so they decided not to and give us the *freedom* to choose our own religion if we wanted to. I fine it applies to so many people that I know - people who've been brought up as one religion, but as they grow older, they find that it's not *their* religion, so they go in search of the one that is right for them and they convert. I think if the freedom was given to children from the very start that it would remove all of that concern/guilt that they have about not liking the religion they were forced to be.

Striving to have a strong moral and ethical code you live by should be something that everyone should learn and embrace - even before Christ they still lived by their own belief system and ideology - it was just that they worshipped many Gods instead of just one. They weren't the godless heathens they were made out to be.

[tiggerandpooh]

wow - and I thought I was being all coy and original when someone asked me what I 'was' and I replied a humanist - not knowing that there was a whole movement out there lol. wonderful to "meet" like minded individuals. I'll be reading some more on this....

[NaeNae]

I really like the idea of Humanism being taught in schools and hope that when I have children that it is taught along side other religious classes as mandatory which may just open the younger generations eye to the acceptance of ALL beliefs and life followings.

Maybe when this happens there will be far less bigatory or religious wars about which is the right religion the one and only religion because everyone will be more accepting of each persons choice.

I am just curious about one aspect of Humanism so if you don't mind me asking, what's the go when it comes to death? is it just that the person dies and is buried and becomes worm food thus replenishing the earth with nutrients??

Though I do not consider myself to be religious I like to think my baby became and angle and not just left as a pile of ash that we scattered on our farm kwim??

[Aimz]

It's a tough one for me to answer Nae, knowing what you have been through this year. I don't want to discredit your beliefs at all. But it's a really good question and one that can be answered.

Humanists don't believe in Heaven or Hell or that there is a place after death where people's spirits go. Humanists also do not believe in reincarnation. But I wouldn't put it as insignificant as they just become food for the worms. It is actually a lot more than that. Humanists believe that a person's influence can remain long after they are gone. Kind of like when you throw a pebble across the surface of a pond - the ripples remain long after the pebble has sunk to the bottom. Each person leaves their mark on another and long after they are gone their effect on the world carries on in other people.

The effect that your little girl had on you has changed you. And because of that you will affect somebody else - and so it continues.

And just a side note - Humanists believe that this is the only life humans beings have and that we must strive to make it as worthwhile and happy as possible, for ourselves and others. Humanists believe that human beings must face the problems of this world without the prospect of supernatural help. Therefore we do not believe in an after life of any kind but strive to make THIS LIFE the best it can be.

[Aimz]

A few passages I have found that I would like to share...

Charles Francis Potter On Humanism
Originally published in 1930
Language updated in 1994

Old: God created the world and humanity.
New: The world and humanity evolved.

Old: Hell is a place of eternal torment for the wicked.
New: Suffering is the natural result of breaking the laws of right living.

Old: Heaven is the place where good people go when they die.
New: Doing right brings its own satisfaction.

Old: The chief end of humanity is to glorify God.
New: The chief end of humanity is to improve ourselves, as individuals and as the human race.

Old: Religion has to do with the supernatural.
New: Religion has to do with the natural; the so-called supernatural is only the not-yet-understood natural.

Old: Humankind is inherently evil and a worm of the dust.
New: Humankind is inherently good and has infinite possibilities.

Old: Humankind should submit to the will of God.
New: Humankind should not submit to injustice or suffering without protest and should endeavor to remove its causes.

Old: Salvation comes from outside humanity.
New: Improvement comes from within. No person or god can save another person.

Old: The ideas of sin, salvation, redemption, prayer, and worship are important.
New: These ideas are unimportant.

Old: The truth is to be found in one religion only.
New: There are truths in all religions and outside of religion.

And this one which I absolutely LOVE...

The Humanist rarely loses the feeling of at-homeness in the universe. The Humanist is conscious of being an earth-child. There is a mystic glow in this sense of belonging. Memories of one's long ancestry still linger in muscle and nerve, in brain and germ cell. On moonlit nights, in the renewal of life in the springtime, before the glory of a sunset, in moments of swift insight, people feel the community of their own physical being with the body of mother earth. Rooted in millions of years of planetary history, the earthling has a secure feeling of being at home, and a consciousness of pride and dignity as a bearer of the heritage of the ages.

[suse]

Amy, I had to share the love, but just wanted to let you know that I thought you answered Nae's question so beautifully.

[NaeNae]

Amy, I had to share the love, but just wanted to let you know that I thought you answered Nae's question so beautifully.

I agree whole heartedly - she did a great job with the question i am not known for my sublty

amysarah - I love that quote that you love its beautiful no matter what your beliefs are