Religion

[Phteven]

Sara, I found your first post really interesting because in a way it was quite close to the Islamic perspective on Christianity. In Islam we believe that Judaism and Christianity are both derived from legitimate revelations but that they have lost thier authenticity and the messages delivered by the Prophets have been altered to such an extent that it is now difficult to know what is correct and what isn't.
So whilst we don't nessescarily agree with thier contents we hold the religious texts of Christianity and Judaism in high esteem. In Islam it's regarded as a crime to destroy a church or synagogue.

In regards to food - that's one of the areas that we think that Christianity has lost its way.
Gargy, in regards to the shellfish, there is a legitimate scholarly differance of opinion on whether it is halal (permissable) or not. Some of the madhabs (schools of thought) argue that it's ok and others disagree. In such cases both opinions are regrded as legitimate and you can make up your own mind. Many people just follow all the rulings from one particular madhab but I prefer to pick and choose.
In order to be halal animals have to be slaughtered by having thier throats cut - the same as kosher. So we regard kosher meat as being halal. The Quran says that meat slaughtered by people of the book (Christians, Jews & Sabaens - because they follow Abrahmic law) in the correct manner is Halal but these days Christains no longer follow traditional/correct methods of slaughter. The thing I find really interesting about Halal & Kosher meat is that BSE isn't an issue if Halal & Kosher methods are used. My uncle is C of E but when I went to stay with him for a while he had to find me Halal meat and once he read up on it he started buying Halal and Kosher instead of going to his local butcher or supermarket.

FWIW I like the King James version of the Bible best because from a purely asthetic/literary perspective I believe it to be the best written. They way that there are so many differant versions of the bible is one of Islam's main criticisms of it in regards to its authenticity. The Quran today is exactly the same as it was 1500 years ago - right down to the last dot. We believe that the Quran in itself is a miracle because of this. Unlike the Bible the language of the Quran is still alive and spoken today and unlike the Bible if every physical copy of The Quran vanished it would not be an issue. In every country of the world there are people who can recite every word of the Quran so all we would need to do is find one and write it down again. I could be wrong but I suspect that if every copy of The Bible vanished tomorrow there would be a great deal of confusion about how to go about re-writing it.

I hope no-one's offended but I thought that maybe some of you would be interested in the Islamic perspective....

[kerry]

Catholic and Authodox churches still have quite a few fast days. Some are supposed to be complete fasts (Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, Christmas Eve) and some are partial. Most peopl just exclude meat/poultry for the fasts or fast from midnight, if at all. Its covered in the easter/goodfriday thread that I linked above.

Disclaimer: Not after a debate on the pros or cons of circumcision. Also Yael (and any other Jewish readers) I'm just putting down some historical facts, I don't personally follow the belief that my religion is right and someone else's wrong and ergo they are going to hell/eternal damnation.. for me that's not what my religion is about... I don't follow my religion for what might happen after I die but for now and who I am while I am living. For me being Catholic makes me a better person, and I whole heartedly support any religion that does just that, makes someone a better person and a better member of society, regardless of what that particular religion is.

Catholics, like Jews, have a list of laws we are supposed to follow on how to practise our religion, it is called the Catechism. It deals with the dogma of the religion, the laws, practices and feasts.

In regards to laws of the old testament and those of the new (as they pertain to catholics) :

From the document, "Cantate Domino" (A.D. 1442), signed by Pope Eugene IV, from the 11th session of the Council of Florence (A.D. 1439, a continuation of the Council of Basle, A.D. 1431, and the Council of Ferrara, A.D. 1438) :

[The Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the Old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our Lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the Passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ's passion until the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the [Jewish] sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors.

In “Nineteen Letters,” Rabbi Hirsch said that God is the “Harmonizer of Opposites.” He did not saythat God is the “Segregator” of opposites. I've often wondered over this, weather it was to do with the issue of equality of the sexes and that God viewed both men and women worthy of all official religious ranks or if it was more to do with Harmony amongst religions. I mean I feel that essentially the monodiety religions (Judaism, christianity, Islam) have the same fundamental beliefs BUT that they differ in their interpretation on practices... why then can't we be harmonious with the same god. I have always taken this to mean we aren't supposed to be fighting or arguing over religion.

[Heaven]

Oh also a reason why I think that the food laws were given to everyone, not just the israelites is bc they were known about before God told the Israelites, they have always existed. Noah knew what clean and unclean meats were:

Genesis 7:2
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

God said this to Noah so he must have known about them??

[kerry]

Dach... no offence taken here... and yep love the Islamic perspective.

My Grandad had a book about the 100 most influential people historically in the AD period. Mohammad (sp, sorry Dach, no offence if wrong) was in the top 10 and Jesus was in the top 30. Anyway each person listed had a Bio done on them and it was a great read, wish I remembered the title and author. Martin Luther and Henry VIII all got a listing. Anyway the reason that Mohammad was listed ahead of Jesus was that due to the time lines and the consistency of his teaching and establish religion he was by far the more influentual. In a shorter time than in the case of Jesus more people joined his faith and stayed truer to his original teachings, ergo he was deemed more influential. Can't argue with the logic in my opinion. Also (please correct me if I am wrong) but there are only to branches to Islam, Sunni and ?? (memory block, how rude) while christianity as too many to count.

[Phteven]

I don't personally follow the belief that my religion is right and someone else's wrong and ergo they are going to hell/eternal damnation.. for me that's not what my religion is about...

I may be wrong but I don't think that many people do believe that....
The Quran states quite clearly that people of the book can get into heaven so its certainly not the Islamic position...
It makes no sense to me that a merciful God would send people to hell for being the wrong religion.....

[Heaven]

Interesting post, thanks dachlostar.
Islam and christianity are very similar. I am not sure of all the differences. I once heard (now this is very simple and I don't know if I've got the ppl right, lol) that christianity and islam come from the same background but there was a prophecy about the messiah coming from Abraham's (or someone??) decendants (Abraham would have a child, the child of promise and the messiah would be a direct decendant). Abrahams wife couldn't have children and even though God said he would make her pregnant Abraham didn't believe him and slept with his maidservant just in case. So that child was born and muslims believe that was the child of promise which mohammed (sp?) came from. But christians believe that the child that Abraham eventually had with his wife was the child of promise which Jesus was descended from. This probably doesn't even make sense.
Now I have no idea where I heard that or if it's even true or if it was even Abraham!!! Do you know, I would be interested to find out.
Thankyou.

[butterfly_warrior]

SarahJane, from memory here, so forgive me if I'm wrong...

I do believe it was Abraham and Sarah (or Abram and Sarai ??). It was Sarah that didn't believe the promise God gave to them and asked Abraham to sleep with the servant (whose name completely escapes me). Ishmael was born of that union, and I'm told that's where the Islamic faith sprang from.

Eventually God fulfilled the promise to Sarah and Abraham and Sarah gave birth to Isaac. The Jewish, and eventually Christian, faith came from that line.

Again, this is from memory, and I have to go out soon so I don't have time to look things up and confirm that I'm correct - but this is what I recall and have been taught in Church. I'm sorry if I've goofed in some way.

BW

[Phteven]

Kerry, you're pretty much right
The 2 main groups within Islam are the Sunni and the Shia. basically the division was about succession the Shia believed that caliphs should be hereditary whilst the Sunni believed that it should be based on merit.
They had a big battle about it some years after the death of Muhahmed (FWIW the Sunni were led by a woman). These days the Sunni are the majority. There was also a smaller faction called the Kharijites but they have become a tiny minority - there are some in Oman but that's it.

[Heaven]

Thanks Butterfly, I knew I'd heard it somewhere and didn't just dream it up. Interesting, does that mean jews, christians, and muslims are following the same God? Confusing.

[Phteven]

yep sara - it's the same God. Which makes all the insanity and hostility about religion today even more inexplicable

BW - the servant's name was Hagar unfortunately it always reminds me of a cartoon about a Viking called Hagar the Horrible.
I always find her story really poingant because she was cast out and lost in the desrt with a tiny baby and no water.
One of the things that is obligitary for a Muslim who can do it is to go on Haj (which is visiting Meccca during the month of Haj) and as part of the Haj ritual you have to run (or walk fast) back and forth between 2 hills. This part of the ritual is a re-enactment of what Hagar did when when she found herself stranded in the desert with a baby and no water - eventually the babies' feet kicking in the sand dug down enough to expose some moisture beneath so she realised there was a spring there.
I always think that making people take a run in the desrt in the middle of the day is a great way to make them appreciate fresh water for the rest of thier lives.

[Jennifer13]

That depends, SaraJane, if we're right and there is the one God!! I looked up the religious facts site alluded to and OMG(or Gs) there are so many listed!

Very interesting.

So we could all be right, if there is one God and he's understanding about how we might all get confused and not sure who is right/wrong and how to put it all into practice.

If he isn't understanding, most of us are stuffed!

We had a table of whether it was worth following religion (Christian, in this case) put together by someone noteworthy (I'll find it somewhere) that classified the 'risk' of not following religion against the 'reward' (salvation, possible eternal life, etc) and the 'cost'. He determined that even if you didn't think it was likely there was a God, you were better off behaving as though there was - since if you were wrong the cost was high, whereas if you were right there was not really any downside.

Chlo - my FIL (chauvanist from way back) went back to the Doomsday book when he did their family tree and discovered that their surname was actually from a woman many centuries ago (her husband took her name). I took great pleasure in seeing that and highlighting it since! So I'm very intrigued that the Sunni were led by a woman in battle! Can't wait for an opportunity to use that in a conversation with him. (He thinks 'cause we've only produced a daughter so far the family name and reputation is going to die. But I'm going off the subject!)

[Heaven]

yep sara - it's the same God. Which makes all the insanity and hostility about religion today even more inexplicable

Definately, now I just really don't get all the fighting and hostility. We all worship the same God, doesn't matter if someone else does it differently to you. Why can't the rest of the world talk about religion the way we have in this thread, openly and honestly without hostility. I reckon we've done a good job. Well done girls.
Keep it up, I like hearing about everyone's different views and practices.

[Heaven]

He determined that even if you didn't think it was likely there was a God, you were better off behaving as though there was - since if you were wrong the cost was high, whereas if you were right there was not really any downside.

That's my view! DH was never religious, his family never taught him anything about it which I think is a shame coz he missed out. He said he doesn't see the point in believing coz his life is fine. I told him what's the harm in believing? Only good can come of it, even if it's just that you think about how you're living your life and how you can do it better!! Anyway we started reading the bible together so we could both at least learn about it before he decides what he believes. And guess what!! He is actually starting to believe which I didn't expect, I am so excited!! Pretty powerful book if it can convince him. Thankyou God!

[kerry]

I may be wrong but I don't think that many people do believe that.... It makes no sense to me that a merciful God would send people to hell for being the wrong religion.....

You would be surprised how many catholics (and other christians for that matter) do believe this. Anyway, I only said it because I was putting in the quote that speaks about the loss of eternal salvation (going to heavan), especially in relation to the Jewish laws and practises. Its actually a big thing for Catholics (1 of my issues with the church)... ensuring the eternal salvation. We have the whole purgatory aspect and limbo, confession and forgiveness of sin... there is a big focus on the hereafter within or church.

I'm not hedging any bets. For me my religion is like an extra conciense. When I lost interest in the church for a while (for vaious reasons) I was not a very nice person. I think just being part of the church again makes me act differently and it is definately for the better.

Dach that is very interesting about the Sunni being led by a woman.

[Heaven]

I believe that when Jesus comes (bc I'm christian) we will all be given a second chance to decide what we believe, so if we're in the wrong religion, or denomination, or doing it wrong or whatever everyone gets a second chance and the chance for salvation.
Just what I think, and I like thinking that way, less pressure about am I in the right religion etc.....

[kerry]

I like to think I am in the right religion for me.

Yael is in the right one for her.

Dach is in the right one for her.

Dunno, I'm probably wrong but that's how I like to look at it. Personally I don't even delve into any religion being wrong, unless the religion tells you to commit group suicide as in Jonestown or the Heavens Gate Cult.... if you know what I mean, I think those religions are wrong, or the religions that condone child abuse as part of their beliefs as in CoG.

[Heaven]

I agree with that too kerry. For some reason I feel I want to be a christian, and others feel they should be other faiths, there must be some reason for that.
If you get something out of it and it majes you feel good, it can't be wrong.

[Pandora]

kerry, I am pretty sure they got rid of limbo in Vatican II.
At least thats what we were taught in VCE RE. then again, my teacher went to jail not long after I graduated...so who knows.