Religion

[Bathsheba]

QUOTE: "He said he doesn't see the point in believing coz his life is fine".

My DD (12yo) is trying to take a similar stance and what i'm trying to help her to understand is that, sure, life might be fine today, but what do people do when something terrible happens? What if you are stuck on the 100th floor of a burning skyscraper with no way down? What do most people say? They instinctively say "Oh my God".... even non-believers. I think most of us know that there is something "up there"... but we deny it for various reasons until crunch time. I personally don't want to wait until something tradgic happens... and happen it will... I want to have that sense of 'connectedness' to God now. I don't want to fear death, i don't want to fear anything, and most of all i want to be a good person. I can 'feel' the two forces of the universe (Good and bad) everyday quite accutely and i simply want to allign myself to the right side because it feels better intuitively. For me though, life is a little like "bootcamp for the soul" it's hard and it's meant to be, and just because I try to be a good Christian doesn't mean that God will be kinder to me... infact it's quite the opposite I think. He wants me to be stronger so i will be tested... our souls are like muscles, they grow weak if they have it 'easy' and rest all day. The only way for a soul to grow strong is for it to be tested i guess... that's the scariest aspect of faith for me: knowing that it will only just get harder the closer i get to heaven. I really think we need to pray for our spiritual leaders because of this too: they are truely being put to the test!

Sorry about that little 'thinking out loud' session... I guess i don't know much about religion as taught in church etc... but it is important to me that i learn... in the meantime I really do want to persue a multi-faith approach, and this is why i'm really enjoying this thread

[Heaven]

sure, life might be fine today, but what do people do when something terrible happens? What if you are stuck on the 100th floor of a burning skyscraper with no way down? What do most people say? They instinctively say "Oh my God".... even non-believers. I think most of us know that there is something "up there"... but we deny it for various reasons until crunch time. I personally don't want to wait until something tradgic happens... and happen it will... I want to have that sense of 'connectedness' to God now.

Definately, i said this too him too.
And it feels so much better to believe in at least something. Otherwise what is the point of life, you live you die that's it you're gone? That's no fun to me. I'd rather believe there's much much more to this world.

[Bathsheba]

My DH is still fence sitting as well... hasn't committed to either argument. He seems to need more proof i think. One analogy i have found to be helpful with him is to liken our life on earth with a baby in the womb... yes we appear to have everything we need... we are alive, all's good... but we are not able to see the bigger picture, it's impossible for us to even imagine the reality of the situation because we would have to get outside the womb to know what is going on... and when it's time to be born it's pretty scarey! there's lots of pain and blood and change... which is all a bit like dying really... but i think that when we die all will then be revealed... until then we just have to accept that there is no language to describe the reality of God and Heaven... it's impossible, just accept it... now i don't know if this analogy is correct of course, it's just more guesswork and intuition. My DH seems to think there might be something to it though

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Gotta be quick here, but...

if Jesus still did them why don't we??

Because when Jesus was alive He hadn't died for our sins and this made the changes of what was good in the eyes of God and what wasn't. Not to invalidate the argument, but that's how I see it.

About women leaders - check out the book of Judges. Deborah (to name the first one who springs to mind) also led men into battle. Also what of Ruth, Esther, Rahab or Mary Magdalene if you want more strong women? These ladies were fantastic and can teach us so much. BTW, wiht Mary it's worth actually reading the Bible, not popular fiction; she's not the same woman as the films would have us believe.

It does state in the Bible that the Qu'arn was given to Mohammed... again, I need to look up where exactly. But I can't believe that God would give His people so many different religions and then expect us to pick which was divine - they all are.

[paradise lost]

I think god, whatever you percieve God to be, can see into your heart. This means that if you are living your life in love, doing what you truly believe to be correct, and are reverent about others too, you're on the right track.

But if you have badness in your heart, or greed or cruelty, even if you act apparently in god's name, he will know your true motivation and that is a bad path to take.

I also believe a soul is tested before achieving heaven/enlightenment but i believe too in karma. There is no "good" karma - karma is the debt of sins accumulated by your soul as you move through life and you must repay before you can move on up. I think hardship settles karma and teaches us lessons about ourselves, the world, how to be, but if we are poor scholars, engage in self-pity or hate or perpetuate the pain we have suffered and gather more karma, we get another lesson, even harder, until we learn. I am not completely without compassion! But i do think i know many, many people who are so much more in control of their lives and hardships than they are willing to see - and i don't mean abstract "this happened because you were mean to her" scenarios, i mean literal "you made a poor decision and this is the fruit of that" scenarios. It is painful to stop in the middle of hardship and think "why is this really happening? could i have prevented it? if i couldn't have prevented it, what is it teaching me? did i need this lesson?" but the answer to the last question is invariably yes.

As for the major religions, there's an analogy....(wait for it!)..

There's an elephant. The elephant is God. The elephant is surrounded by the scholars of the major religions. They are blind, because none of us can know the true nature of God. The Jewish scholar has his hands on an ear. He calls out to the others "The nature of God is flat and smooth and large!". The Christian scholar holds the trunk. He calls out to the others, "The nature of God is long and flexible!". The Muslim scholars hold tusks, the Sunni calls out "The nature of God curves this way." the Shia responds "The nature of God curves THIS way!". The Buddhist sits at the feet of the elephant, leaning back against the leg and says "The nature of God is a steady support, a solid resting place.". The Hindu scholar holds onto the tail and laughs at the Buddhist's words which are such a poor description.

If humans, or elephants, can be so complex and hard to "know" with our narrow vision of relaities, how much more so must God be? To understand God would be like trying to drink the oceans. I will sip what i can hold in my teeny hands and be satisfied.

Bx

[Bathsheba]

Oh Bec, such wisdom, you're amazing

Yes, I believe too that God can see into our hearts. And I also acknowledge that every bad thing that has happened to me has happened for a reason and i don't resent anyone or God for that. I just hope and pray that i don't somehow perpetuate the harm... that is the most important thing.

I've heard that analogy (of the elephant) before and you have restated it very eloquently
It's a good one hey?

Well both my boys are asleep early tonight and I think I'd better hit the hay... otherwise i could chat about this all night with such interesting and wise company

nighty nite all!

[Rouge]

I'm loving this thread I feel like going into a few other parenting forums and pointing out this thread and saying "THIS is how you have a mature discussion about religion"

I do think though that tolerance is something that is coming with age, alot of people our age that are religious tend to be tolerant about others and their choice in religion, its the older generations I've found to be the more certain there's is the only way iykwim?

Here's hoping things can only get better...

*hugs*
Cailin

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Hagar was actually a bit mean to Sarai - she bragged a bit that she could have a baby but Sarai couldn't; that's why Sarai was mean to Hagar. Or at least, that's how it's reported in the Bible! The circumcision was for Abraham and Isaac, not Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac's son Jacob went on to have the twelve sons who then formed the tribes of Israel. Hope that clears it up a bit - I'd love to know the Islam reporting of this history too.

[paradise lost]

I love Ruth best of all (my name, rebecca, means faithful wife or joined together so maybe that's why....). Her husband dies and her MIL is thrown into poverty. The other daughters in law return to their families. Naomi (MIL) tells them to go because she is too old to have more sons for them to marry. The others go but Ruth refuses.

Ruth 1:16-17
"And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, i will go; and whither thou lodgest, i will lodge; thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:
Where though diest, will i die, there will i be buried: the Lord do so to me, and more also if ought but death part thee and me.

Such devotion! Devotion is very important to me, and something which makes me feel whole, to be able to place my faith in someone or something and come what may stay there and honour my decision. It's very hard to do, but powerful if one can manage it

Bx

[butterfly_warrior]

Genesis 17:26 - Abraham and Ishmael were circumcised on the same day. I do love to just read Genesis sometimes. I also end up wondering just how history (and life today) would be different if Sarah had been patient and trusting enough to believe that God would fulfill his promise and didn't send Abraham to Hagar...

Another question for Dachlostar... I was told that after God made his covenant with Abraham that the Jews went on to circumcise their male children at 8 days old as per instructions. But because Ishmael was 13, the Muslims adopted the habit of circumcising at 13 years of age. It doesn't seem to sit right with me, and I have always wondered if this were true.

BW

[Heaven]

I also end up wondering just how history (and life today) would be different if Sarah had been patient and trusting enough to believe that God would fulfill his promise and didn't send Abraham to Hagar...

Oh yes, very different I'm sure.

[Phteven]

BW, there is no specific age for circumcision in Islam - you need to get it done but it's up to the parents when it's performed. I'm of the opinion that it's best done early. There are some differant cultural traditions - the Turkish people do it when thier sons are 12 or 13. It's a bit of a rite of passage, the boy gets spoilt rotten and dressed up in special clothes and lots of presents and if there is one available he rides around on a white pony then...... *chop*. Personally, the thought of it makes my eyes water but I was discussing it once on another forum and the Turkish guys on there didn't seem particuarly traumatised by the experience - they actually seemed to have fond memories of it as a special day and the start of thier adulthood.

Niass, we believe that after the Zam-Zam spring appeared Hagar (Hajira in arabic which IMO is a much nicer name than Hagar) and Ishmael settled beside and started to trade with passing caravans and as time passed they founded a settlement there (Mecca). Abraham came to visit but they never lived together again and later Abraham and Ishmael worked together to raise the Kaaba.

In Islam we believe that the son that Abraham was called upon to sacrifice was Ishmael not Isaac. There was scholarly debate about this long ago but the concensus of the scholars was that as his oldest son Ishmael was the son referred to in the Holy texts. I could be wrong but I think that traditionally in Christain scholarship it has been assumed to be Isaac because he was the legitimate son whereas Ishmael was the son of a slave-woman. In Islam despite his illegitimacy Ishmael is still recognised as the oldest son. He is also considered a Prophet. In fact he's not really regarded as illegitimate because Hagar is regarded as a second wife.

Whilst we have great respect for Sarah, Hajira and Ishmael are far more central to our history.

I agree that it would make a great blockbuster but however you portrayed it someone would be bound to be offended

[Jennifer13]

Hajira is much nicer than Hagar.

I think it was because God promised Abraham that the messiah would come through his children with Sarah that Christianity focuses on that line, rather than the offspring of Ishmael. Interesting point on the sacrifice of his son, although I think the point of the sacrifice was for Abraham to trust God, rather than which son was more important (really, neither son was less important than the other in the eyes of Abraham, it was just that God happened to promise the Messiah would come from his offspring with Sarah. And this was to prove that even though it looked impossible, because Sarah was beyond childbearing age, God always fulfills his promises).

Chlo, as Hagar/Hajira was considered a second wife, does this mean there are circumstances where polygamy was acceptable in Islam? In the Old Testament, there were quite a few examples of men (who were followers of God) who had more than one wife. And does Islam differentiate between the title of concubine (which is what Hagar/Hajira was classified as) and that of wife?

Sorry to pester you with qns!!

[paradise lost]

Quickly on the later circumcision front...

In some parts of North Africa which are now Christian, circumcision is still performed at age 12 or 13, as a boy enters manhood. In such places the foreskin is seen as a "female" element (as females have folds of skin and men, in their culture, do not) and it is removed after the end of childhood when the boy becomes a man and no longer needs it. There too it is a major rite of passage and something which the boys look forward to and compete over (who took the pain most like a man!). It actually sits better with me than newborn circumcision as it's done with the foreskin's owner's informed consent, BUT i can see that it would be difficult even for a 13 year old to go against his on culture and also that fulfilling the covenant goes way beyond a consent issue so please no-one feel i am attacking religious practice!

Bx

[Heaven]

My interpretation of the passages mentioned from Genesis (though others may read it different) is that Ishmael was greatly loved by his father and until Sarah gave birth to a son, he was the most important child, but he needed to have his first wifes child become the 'sucessor'. But I think he struggled with this and thats why God had to reasure him that Ishmael was still significant and looked after.

I agree, for christians it is pretty clear in the bible that Issac was the 'child of promise', because of this passage in Genesis:

19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

So Muslims believe it was actually Ishmael? Can someone tell me how this story is written differently in the Quran (sp?) to portray the different beliefs (i.e. which child was actually the child of promise). Interested to know what it says differently. Thanks guys!

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I must admit, I've never liked the Abraham story. There's the bad blood between Sarah and Hagar (Hajira is sooo much nicer!), there's the whole story of Lot in there too ("Oooh, don't sleep with my male guests, here, have my virgin daughters instead... who will then sleep with me to get pregnant anyway"), there's the sacrifice of Isaac... even though the sacrifice isn't needed, I just find it hard to cope with the thought that Isaac was so long-awaited and then thought his Dad was going to kill him... I know he didn't but it's still the thought of it.

And yes, I know that Jesus had to die for us and that He is the son of God and all that, but God knows His divine plan, we don't. And I just don't like the thought of parents killing their children. God is clearly different as He can see what will happen, but we mortals, well, we shouldn't be encouraged to kill our babies! But that's an emotive Mummy talking.

[Heaven]

Maybe that's why I like that story, it's like a soap, lol.

Something interesting about the Sabbath: I read it somewhere the other day but I can not find it anywhere now. I remember reading somewhere about the benefits of observing the Sabbath (from friday sunset to Saturday sunset). Anyway, apparently they've now found that during that time during the week there's something about the way the planets are aligned to give you the best rest and rejuvination. Weird hey. I think it's amazing. Like I've been reading stuff about the food laws and they've only recently found why the 'unclean' animals and blood, etc are bad for you from a scientific perspective. That just convinces me that the bible is true even more, because these laws were written thousands of years ago and now science is able to back them up, crazy!

Also been reading about evolution. Wondering why we were and still are taught it in school now, turns out there's no evidence for it. Apparently all life evolved etc etc so you would expect fossils to show this development, however, there's been no transitional fossils found at all??? Why are they still teaching us this then. Some of the text books still have examples which are now well known to be hoaxes.

Then that got me thinking about global warming, they are giving evidece for global warming from what the earth has been doing millions of years ago, although from a christian perspective the earth has only been around 10000 years or something. Omg too much thinking.
Congratulations if you were able to follow my train of thought here, lol, I have gone completely of the track.

[Heaven]

I was just thinking about the whole global warming evidence thing again, they look at tree rings, glaciers, etc and say the world must be really old from that. Well I reckon God would have made all the trees and everything already formed, not a seed in the ground, otherwise all the animals wouldn't have anything to live on until everthing grew. So then things would look older wouldn't they?? Does that make sense?
Also solves the what came first, the chicken or the egg, lol, a chicken god didn't make eggs to hatch, and he didn't make embryo's for adam and eve, haha. Never thought of it that way, problem solved, lol.

I think christian creation theory/belief is that the earth has been about up to 10,000yrs.

I think there's 2 different views, either literally 7 days he made the world in, or 7 'God' days.
I personally believe the literal 7 days from Genesis. DH I think is more inclined to see it as some kind of metaphor as he finds it hard to believe things he can't absolutly prove, or see! Although he fails to realise evolution hasn't been proven either.

Some interesting stuff I found about the whole evolution thing on a website if anyone's interested, it's a summary of the evidence:

Evolution Therory: Life came from non-living matter (spontaneous generation)
Scientific Evidence: Never observed or duplicated in a laboratory

Evolution Therory: Random processes create life. The universe has existed for over 30 billion years, during which time all life evolved by random processes.
Scientific Evidence: Creating a simple 100 component non-living organism would take 3 billion billion billion billion billion billion billion years. The simplest protein that can be termed 'living' has 400 components.

Evolution Therory: Sexual reproduction came about by evolution.
Scientific Evidence: 2 humans had to evolve at the same time and place, having complimentary reproductive systems. If one system wasn't complete or compatible the species would become extinct.

Evolution Therory: Species evolve from other species.
Scientific Evidence: There are no fossils of transitional life forms. Organisms have never been found to cross the boundaries between species.

Evolution Therory: Mutations are the primary way that new genetic material is available for evolution.
Scientific Evidence: Greater than 99% of mutations are defects. No mutant has been observed that has become a different species.

I don't get why if this is the case they are still teaching it in schools, any ideas?