Religion

[paradise lost]

Cate i feel the same as you. I believe the most powerful impact a religion can have is when one finds it ones self, when God, whatever God is, speaks to one's own heart. This doesn't mean i won't talk to Esme about God and religion, but i won't be telling her which is the right way, she'll need to find that out herself.

B

[Heaven]

I think when I have a baby I'm going to get them dedicated, instead of christened. I think that's kind of like saying this is what I believe and I'm going to bring you up this way but it's still going to be something you have to choose to continue with.
I was brought up Anglican and have been doing lots of research over the last few years. Tried out catholic stuff etc to see what I believed, decided that didn't fit with me, and came to my own decision from what I've read from the bible, and I hope that's what my children will do.

[butterfly_warrior]

Sara, that's how things are done within my church (baptist). Infants are dedicated, which is basically just the parents standing up in church and saying "this is how I plan to raise my child". When old enough, you can choose to be baptised by full immersion - that was an amazing time of my life when I chose to do be baptised.

However, there are some aspects of a christening that I think we miss out on. The whole idea of godparents in particular. Especially if you take them as their role is intended which is people to help raise the child in the faith and be responsible for their spiritual upbringing.

Something between the two would suit me fine.

BW

[Heaven]

Oh can't you have godparents? I would want godparents for my child!
Yeah, I was christened, but now I believe that you are actually meant to be babtized by immersion when you are older, like Jesus was. So I kind of which I wasn't so I can do that. I'm not sure if you still can coz you can only be baptized once and I don't know if its right or not.

I have a question I just thought of. So......before Jesus people had to give animal sacrifices for their sins right? But now Jesus was our sacrifice and took away all our sins so we don't have to. So...seing as Jews don't believe in Jesus and I assume don't sacrifice animals anymore...what do they believe? How are their sins forgiven. Could be a stupid obvious answer but I don't know!!

[butterfly_warrior]

Sara, it's fine to be baptised by full immersion as an adult even if you have already been christened as an infant. I have several friends who were christened in an anglican church as babies, then as adults in a baptist church chose to be baptised again. I guess it may depend on the church, but from my experience, there's nothing to prevent you from have a full-immersion baptism. I've even heard of people in anglican churches choosing to be baptised by full immersion as an adult.

I suspect, from what I've seen anyway, that the dedication ceremony can be altered to suit what the parents want. It's not something I've looked into much yet, but if it's at all possible, I'd like to include godparents in a dedication for our children... when we eventually manage to have them.

And sorry for mis-spelling your name earlier, I'll go fix it!

BW

[Heaven]

That's ok about my name, everyone does it, lol.
That's cool, thanks for the information. i might look into it. DH and I are reading the bible atm, he doesn't really believe anything, but he is beggining too. Maybe when we get to the end of our journey, whatever we have to do, he might feel differently and we could be baptized together. That would be really nice I reckon!
I hope we can alter the dedication ceremony, I like the idea of godparents.

[MistyFying]

BW our faith community is a baptist one, and we have had people dedicating their kids and having godparents who promise to explain to and guide the kids and model Jesus' teachings to them as they grow up, so when the time comes the kids can decide for themselves (ie an informed decision) about whether they want to become Christians or not.

[butterfly_warrior]

Thank you, Christine. I'd suspected it was possible to do that, but didn't know for sure. It's good to have it confirmed so that what I want to do with my children is going to be possible.

BW

[Bathsheba]

Mummycate: our family are non-denominational Christians... well my DH considers himself a Christian but isn't really certain what he believes. He was never taken to church as a child and didn't actually enter a church until he was about 20. He says he feels quite uncomfortable entering a church. His parents figured he could become 'religous' if he wanted to as an adult as well. It never happened. It was all too far outside his comfort zone and by the time he was 20 his ideas of religion were a result of the broader Aussie perceptions (ie generally to be avoided unless attending weddings and funerals and the notion that anyone 'religious' was a 'God botherer' etc).

My family were not regular church attenders either however my nana attended every Sunday and she was the family member I trusted the most and admired. Several families in our street sent their kids to Sunday school and so I asked my parents if I could join them (as it seemed to be a fun thing to do) and they agreed. So I had a limited experience.... it entered my comfort zone.

I think it's really important to establish positive comfort zones for your kids. The places you visit as a child become the places you feel comfortable visiting as an adult. Generally speaking. For this reason I take my children to church so they can attend Sunday school and expereince the atmosphere and the community spirit. They have found it to be welcoming and safe place. This will register deep in their subconscience. They probably will drift away from church when they are in their teens but I feel confident that because of this positive experience they have had as children they are more likely to return as adults than if they had never attended at all. As I said, we are non-denominational but we attend a Uniting Church at the moment. At our church our minister shares information about other faiths including the Jewish and Buddist (to name a few) on a regular basis. For me this is hopefully providing the optimal form of spiritual nurturing that my children require. I feel that if something tradgic occurs, that at least they will have some knowledge of possible everlasting life and hope that may comfort them. My 12yo I think drew on this when her 2yo cousin was run over and killed in 2002.

uh oh... gotta help my DH settle our 1 yo...

ETA: so, in summary: I believe that it is possible to offer your children spiritual nurturing without "choosing a faith" as such. I think children need at least some knowledge of this very important aspect of life. It, I think, is a very important piece of the huge jigsaw puzzle of life and that they need this guidance to make sense of the world around them.

[Ambah]

I'd love to know if there are any other ppl around who haven't posted but have non-Christian beliefs. Such as Buddhism, etc.

But I guess, this thread is probably somewhat representative of the fact that in our little corner of the world Christianity is the major faith. Altho Christian religions still seem to vary widely in their beliefs, even amongst themselves.

If I were to name a belief structure in which my spirituality most closely aligns it would be Buddhism, although there is much that I do not follow, and much that I am not aware of. My spirituality is of my own personal design, and if something makes sense to me, and resonates with me, I am far more likely to take an interest and adopt it as part of my views. Having said this though, my spirituality beliefs are not set into concrete... and as I find out more on certain philosophies I may be inclined to align my belief system somewhat to fit with the new information. However ... there is also much that is set in concrete - within me - within my heart, and these are basic morals and values that make up who I am, and will never change.
I am a moral person, I strongly believe in karma, and in doing what is right. To me this is what makes the most sense.

My spirituality is within me, I do not need a 'God' or Christ in my life... I do not believe in that type of figure.
I certainly believe in the powers of the universe, and in spirituality, but it is not in the sense of the Christian or other religions that have God/Jesus at the centre.
I also do not believe in Heaven. I would like to believe in heaven, it would make the prospect of death a lot less terrifying, but once again I cannot force myself to believe in something... I am more inclined to believe in concepts such as enlightenment, and reincarnation. However I cannot say for a certainty either that these are true, although to me personally they make more sense than heaven.

In my life I have not needed God to save me, or show me the way. I have fought long and hard to get where I am today. I do not believe it was the 'devil' that brought me off the tracks when I was a teenager - to abuse drugs, injure myself, and put myself in dangerous situations with men. It was my own personal choices which led me there, whether conscious or subconscious (stemming from childhood experiences), and I had to hit the absolute bottom before I could begin to go up. My recovery was very much about taking responsibility for my life choices and the situations I had found myself in. This is what keeps me real, and this is why as much as I would love to, I find it impossible to make myself believe in something that doesn't resonate as 'real' to me. I have explored the Christianity path before, but did not get very far as it just did not work for me. I couldn't feel it, and I could not force myself to believe in something that I did not think was real.

I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense... it would probably take thousands of more word for me to begin to explain my rationale properly...

I am not wishing to spark any debate with anyone over this, and I am not questioning why anyone else here has their particular faith, and I would appreciate that same respect in return.

I have had past experiences with friends IRL who have talked to me about their God and religion, and I am so happy to acknowledge that is what they believe in, and support them for it. But then I have found that some (not all) of these people are utterly unable to see that I do not feel the same way at all, and assume that because I can accept and appreciate that they have their beliefs, that within me I must believe in what they believe in... which I don't.

Anyway, I hope I haven't taken this too far off topic, as I am aware that this thread is predominantly about Christianity related religions/beliefs. I just thought I would answer Jennifer's question, and share a little part of myself with everyone.

[mummycate]

hoobley, i think that's great. i will talk to elouise about different gods and such but not in too much depth unless she wants to. i'll take elouise to church when she's older so she knows what happens there. my aunty and uncle are uniting church. so i'd take her there, as i dislike much of the catholic teachings. when i went to the uniting church with my aunty and uncle at christmas time, i was heavily pregnant and not married to dp. but there was no staring or whispering. everyone was lovely. i didn't know anyone either. i felt so accepted, yet in a catholic church i would be shamed. i'm sorry, i've had bad experiences with catholic church. love thy neighbour really was i'll be nice to your face, yet gossip about you behind your back. anyway, i can get really defensive about my opinions so i'll stop now. elouise can belong to any religion and i'll baptise her if she wants. but it is up to parents how to raise their children so i have no problems with other people choosing their child's religion. i just don't know which religion is best for her, so i'm leaving it up to her. i gotta go, she's awake now.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Ambah, thanks for sharing that. I won't ask any why questions as you said you don't want a debate, but it is great to hear from non-Christian beliefs as otherwise we'd just be arguing and schisming away in here.

[Rouge]

Great post Ambah, must have taken some guts to share I respect you for your views, I am similar but differ only somewhat. I'm weird in that I don't not believe in anything LOL! My temple is within similar to you, I class myself as a spiritualist. I don't name deities so I guess I'm agnostic because I do believe in something I just cannot name it myself. A lot of people think my belief structure is wishy washy, but I have faith I just don't need to name it, but I also believe that whatever there is appreciates and loves us all equally and answers to all religions and names. I know that sounds weird but thats what I think, just because we all call it something different or believe in something different I still think the same power is there iykwim? I'm probably making no sense now LOL!

*hugs*
Cailin

[AngelPunks]

Ambah
Thanks for that. I feel that way to, that I don't need an "outside influence" either, yes I utilise my ancestors but they're part of me as I am part of them. I don't talk to an "all knowing being", or need this "AKB" to save me etc.

My path & faith is very much a part of my life - much like it is in most xtians - everything I do gives me strength, it feeds my being.

I was at a catholic funeral not that long ago, and was sitting there quietly smiling inside at how pagan the whole thing was - the incense, holy water, calling in the holy spirit & then at the graveside the dirt - talk about calling the 5 elements into a "ritual". We use incense as air or sometimes fire & air (depending on where we're doing the ritual, like outside at a friend's place where we've got a total fire ban so we can't have the ritual fire).

[paradise lost]

Ambah i didn't have time to respond before, but now i do

What you shared was beautiful and i saw a lot of my own feelings in there. I too believe that to a great extent we create our own paths, though i also feel that acceptance of things we did not choose and cannot change is an important part of life too. Your inner compass sounds strong, not only that, it sounds like you are very good at reading it. Not many people are so self-aware.

Cai you made perfect sense and i know exactly what you mean about the central being, whatever it is, answering to all faiths. That's what my elephant analogy was stabbing blindly at

Schaz i too see the pagan elements of Christian rituals and also the Christian elements in apparently non-christian stories/films/etc. I find i'm acutely aware of imagery and motif and am constantly wondering at the ability of humankind has to see only what the individual seeks to see.

B

[Phteven]

Wow, there have been lots of posts in here sice I last visited lol.
I've used the multi-quote button so I can reply to the parts I wanted to because there's no way I could remember it all lol.

Anyways.....

I think it was Jennifer who asked about polygamy in Islam and wether is still permitted?
The short answer is yes but it's more complicated than that.
There is a passage in the Quran that says that a man can take 4 wives but if he can't deal equitabley with them that it is better that he doesn't. Most scholars interprate this as meaning that monogamy is ideal but on occasions polygamy is permitted. There is another opinion that says that this passage actually bans polygamy because no man could deal equally between more than one wife.
In Islam a marriage is invalid without a pre-nuptial agreement and a woman can state in her pre-nup that her husband may not enter into marriage with another woman so no Muslim woman needs to tolerate a polygamous marriage if she doesn't want to. Personally I wouldn't but I do know women who would under some circumstances.

Can any Buddhists, Muslims or Jews join in and tell about what ritual means and its significance?

Bec

As a Muslim on a day to day level the ritual of prayer reaffirms our links to Allah.
Islam I think has less ritual than Christianity - there is no equivilant to mass and there are no priests. Congregational prayer is led by whoever is most learned or most senior but the only reason that it has a leader is so that everyone is in time not because it needs a leader.
The rituals of haj (the trip to Mecca) are the most complex and I think that in part it is to ensure that everyone gains the most from thier haj. Things like everyone wearing a very simple white garment ensure that all pilgrims remember that in Allah's eyes we are equal regardless of race, wealth, gender etc.
I think that ritual helps people feel more at peace - in the same way that a bedtime ritual helps us sleep a religious ritual helps us worship.

Ok so here is a question for ALL of us weather we be muslim, jewish, christian, hindi, budist, shinto, wiccan, atheist, agnostic or ANY OTHER .... what is the one thing you value most about your religion/faith?

For me is the fact I am never alone in anything I do and I am a much better member of my society.

For me what I value is the idea of sisterhood/brotherhood/fraternity. I don't think that its part of Christaian dogma but in Islam the idea that Muslims are all brothers and sister is quite strong. Rascism is explictly forbidden by the Quran. There is a passage that says that all the differant races were placed on Earth so that we can know each other.

I'm a staunch non-believer and can't see how religion can offer anything to me, or my kids, other than an alternative - but unsubstantiated - view of the world. The stories of the christians (or any religion you care to name) are marvelously constructed and fantastically rich but are merely stories none the less.

Whilst I am sure that these fabulous tales contain some facts they are sparsely interwoven amongst the bulk of the fictional prose.

Everyone is entitled to their view and beliefs but keep in mind that the religious extremists, which *all* religions have, have been responsible for more deaths than anything/anyone else in history. Whilst Islam gets a pretty bad rap take at look at one of the most abhorrent texts ever written (the Old Testament) and you will realize that not all is as it seems.

Personally I think that to be a staunch non-believer is an act of faith just as strong as religion. After all believing in the non-existance of a higher power is believing in something that is basically impossible to prove.

I personally also believe that it's inaccurate to claim that religion has been responsible for more deaths than anything else. Wars are more often fought over resources than over religion. Even the current war in Iraq is more about oil than democracy.

I was in Iona Abbey this weekend. Has anyone else ever visited? Ryn, you're the only fellow UK'er in here i think, have you been? The Abbey has existed since 563 when Colum Cille, an Irish Abbot, founded it. Nowadays we know him as Saint Columba. It is the most peaceful place i have been to on earth. I'm not particulary Christian, but the year after year, decade after decade, century after century of worship has undoubtedly done something to the land there. It feels so restful and wonderful. Little birds come right up, unafraid, to sit with one, the air smells sweet, everywhere there is calm and serenity. If you are ever in Scotland i urge you to visit!

Bec

Bec, my Mother was named after Iona Abbey and Iona is one of my middle names

I'll drop it now!

Are there symbols used in Islam or wiccan?

Jennifer, The cresent moon is sometimes used as a symbol for Islam because the moon sighting confirms the start and finish of Ramadan. The religious calander still follows lunar cycles and the cresent moon is the start and finish of the lunar months.

I am a believer (for want of a better word) in evolution as opposed to creationism. Seeing as you ask I find the idea of a supernatural being as ridiculous. Just because it can't be proven that God doesn't exist doesn't mean he does. Take for instance this scenario...I believe a 6" purple teapot orbits Pluto.....we have no way to prove that there isn't one so does that mean there is one? Of course not.

I 100% believe with your statement about real "christians" and extremists. There are always idiots amongst every crop. Why is it though that religion seems to want ownership over every day good manners and thinking of others - i.e. "christian values". What exactly is it about these values that makes them "christian"??? Could/should they also not be referred to equally as Islamic values, Buddhist values etc etc...you get my point.

I am not against religion as some replies seem to intimate however I am also for free thinking and not blindly following something because it is written in the bible, koran or whatever other "bible" you follow.

FWIW I also believe in evolution however I don't see evolution and creation as mutually exclusive.
There is an amazing passage in The Quran that describes the Earth coelsacing from dust. From a scientific perspective it is uncannily accurate. There are several other passages (about conception, space, water and bees to name a few) that are also really scientificly accurate - its only become apparant in recent years just how accurate many of the passages in the Quran are. I assume that there are similar aspects to the Torah and Bible.

As for Christian (or Abrahamic) values - I think that the values of Western society are so deeply rooted in Abrahamic tradition that even non-believers still follow Christian values without realising that they are doing so. FWIW I do think that Abrahamic values do differ from other cultural values. A caste system which seems natural in some cultures would not seem so to someone raised with Abrahamic values. That said, I think that certain values are nessescary in all societies in order to function (ie not killing people).

As for free thinking verses religion, I don't see them as mutually exclusive. Education has a very important place in Islam. One of the hadiths (sayings/actions of The Prphet Mumammed pbuh) is that you should seek knowledge even if it be in China - which in those days was a massive journey away. I would argue that to suggest that to have faith means that one is incapable of free thought is in fact an indication of a lack of free thought but not by those of faith.

Ok... a teaser for all of us....

Question: Which feast day / time in your religious/spiritual calendar do you enjoy the most? Why and what about it is it that you like?

[/I]

I like the Eid (feast) that falls at the end of Ramadan the best. We all buy new clothes (any excuse will do me lol) and the children get presents and we all try and visit friends and family and eat yummy foods...

[Heaven]

Where has everyone gone now, I was enjoying this again! Thanks dachlostar, I can't imagine how long it took you to read through all the posts and reply!!! It's good to have someone of a different faith in here. Oh I think I had a question a while ago for you....I will see if I can find it now...

[Heaven]

Ok, found what I was going to ask:

So Muslims believe it was actually Ishmael? Can someone tell me how this story is written differently in the Quran (sp?) to portray the different beliefs (i.e. which child was actually the child of promise). Interested to know what it says differently. Thanks guys!

And found this from Niass too that would be interesting to know I reckon:

um, I have another question about Islam... I was driving around earlier thinking about this thread and and wondered how is the begining of the earth told. Like in the bible and Genesis starts with "in the begining was the word and the word was ..." and then continues to tell us about the creation of earth and animals etc and then adam and eve and the tree of knowledge etc...is it similar or the same or completly different?

When I looked back through the posts I also found this:

It does state in the Bible that the Qu'arn was given to Mohammed... again, I need to look up where exactly. But I can't believe that God would give His people so many different religions and then expect us to pick which was divine - they all are.

Is this true? Anyone know? I have never read it....would be interesting to see...

ETA: sorry if anyone has answered these and I've missed it, this thread is getting pretty long lol.