Religion

[Bathsheba]

Exactly: you've got to understand something before you can say you don't like it (with any credibility anyhow). It's like saying that you don't like a particular country without having travelled there: you are basing your judgement on other people's perceptions and that's not always accurate. From what I understand the Christian God is a personal God and unless you have a personal connection to him how can you say that you don't need it? We don't like it when other people judge us before even meeting us do we? Sometimes I feel that's what people are doing with God. I don't mean to sound preachy... and I could be wrong... it's just my thoughts. I also don't think it takes much to make that connection with God. I think some people get put-off by all the rituals when (I think) all they need to do is sit quietly where there are no distractions and meditate. Just saying "God, I sense you are out there and I'd like to know you" would do. I know at first it might just seem like you are being met with silence and "ignored" but one way of connecting is to simply think of how you feel when (for example) you feel the love of a child. It is often wordless. It's just a feeling. I think to connect to God you could start by focusing on what he already means to you and that could be love and feeling protected... then see where your thoughts take you as you meditate on that... well, that's what i do I certainly don't expect a "conversation" with him Do people think it's much more complicated than that?

[Heaven]

I agree with everything you've said, Bath.

I also don't think it takes much to make that connection with God. I think some people get put-off by all the rituals when (I think) all they need to do is sit quietly where there are no distractions and meditate.

This is true. Since I've been reading the Bible tho, I have found all of these traditions/rituals that I didn't know, food laws, holy days etc. And while i don't think they're absolutely neccesary to do to believe in God or have a relationship with him i am really glad I have found out about them. It's helping me to be more aware of God in my daily life (e.g. when I have to think what I can eat). So I am glad I found out about it for me (that's what prompted this thread). I am a person who learns and understands through doing things and this works for me. But other people are different and don't like this kind of stuff. I think it's about finding what works for you and I'm glad I have.

I am really liking this thread, thanks everyone who is participating it's great to be able to talk about this stuff openly!
BTW I hope Yael and Dach come back on here, they had some really interesting contributions.

[~Trish~]

Great thread SaraJane, thanks for creating such a great read! I really admire your quest to find out things for yourself. I am a Christian and have always gone to church. I believed everything I was told, but as I got older I started questioning things when I worked out some church leaders weren't as "perfect" as I thought they were! (I am not in anyway having a go at the church BTW). I went on my own quest to get my own conviction of my beliefs and found the whole experience very eye-opening and rewarding. I base my beliefs entirely on the Bible and my own personal relationship with God which go together so well. It certainly helped talking to other people of other beliefs too.

I find other religions and beliefs fascinating and constantly read up on them so I feel informed and not caught up in my own little world.

Bathsheba - Your last post was spot on to me! I think you are a very wise woman who has a great way of looking at life.

[Bathsheba]

Awww thanks Trish ... however the only thing i am truely certain about is how much i DON'T know... my small degree of "wisdom" has only arrived via my mistakes.

I honestly try to keep an open mind about as much as possible but one thing I do hold onto is compassion. Like Hoobley I crave being understood and I think the only way we can understand each other is to be compassionate. I also strive to understand others and marvel daily at how our different lives and perspectives can create different realities for each of us. There are so few "constants" in life... for me God is the most reliable "constant" and I find myself referring to his word more and more often. Such a huge turn around from my agnostic teen years. Anyhow I hope this made sense... my kids have made me feel a little dizzy this afternoon...

[~Trish~]

Bathsheba - True wisdom comes when we learn from our mistakes! Keeping an open mind is definitely my way too. I hold onto my beliefs firmly, but I don't ever want to be so caught up in them that I stop understanding where other people are coming from.

I love people of all walks of life and find their lives fascinating. I am a massive biography fan, it really gives me an insight on how differently we all live.

[Nelle]

Just popping in to say I'm still enjoying this thread! I'm a bible believing Christian, but loving reading about other people's faiths and journeys.

I just wanted to ask Yael - you know how you write G-D, do you prefer others to do that too? I'm just thinking about the book of Matthew in the New Testament, where he refers to the Kingdom of Heaven, where other books refer to the Kingdom of God, and he does it out of respect for his Jewish audience.

[paradise lost]

Re: the goddess figure - yes, in early Christianity the Virgin was a goddess figure. But very different from mother maiden crone as she was both mother and maiden and ascended before old age and without dying.

My own personal beliefs are a bit diverse. I basically do not discount. So if i know someone who believes something or i have read something is believed to be true, i create space in my belief for it to be true. This takes mental acrobatics with conflicting beliefs but, believe it or not, can still be done. There is no reason for me to think what i believe is the only truth. There is a passage somewhere in an Irish Annal of a vision of heaven which came to an Irish monk. In it it was seen that every saint was placed around God so that each could look into the eyes of every other and all were full-face to all. Now the laws of physics wouldn't allow for that (we did various experiments in class) but what would God need physical laws for in Heaven? That's close to how i see religion. It is right to revere the beliefs of others even if you do not share their beliefs. It is right to treat other faiths as as important and holy as one's own. Jesus told us; as you do unto the least of my brothers, you do unto me.

As an aside i want to ask the group (we're a Group now!) about ritual. Do people believe ritual has importance outwith the individual? For instance, if a child is Christened, does that have spiritual significance for the child only, or the child and its parents, OR does it have significance for the moral state of the whole world? What power does ritual have? Cruemum has told us that in magic the intention is what matters, what directs if it is "good" or "bad". Does intention always change the meaning of ritual. If a man has his children Christened (dedicated/baptised/bar or bat mitsvah'd) even though he doesn't believe, in order to curry political favour within a diocese/temple/synagogue/community), does this change the positive impact of the Christening? Can lack of faith, lack of understanding, or lack of true intentions change the wider spiritual repercussions of a religious ritual?

Bec

[~Trish~]

That's a real poser Hoobley! Acts 2:38-39 says "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all whom the Lord our God will call."

I personally want my son to be baptised when he is old enough to make that decision for himself. We had him dedicated on his first birthday which I think has spiritual significance for myself, my DH and our DS. It is a way for us to remember to raise him right and know He is now in God's capable hands.

I am not sure what happens when people perform these rituals just to please others (for example) or just because it is what is expected of them, but I don't think God forgets anything and takes our vows seriously. He never makes us do anything outside of our own will though. Sorry, I don't have a very good answer! These are just my own opinions though.

[Nelle]

I think ritual without remembering why you do it, or doing it for the wrong reasons is pretty meaningless - a passage from (lol, again) 1 Corinthians in the New Testament comes to mind:

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

(that's from the NIV translation btw)

But sometimes ritual can remind us of things, like taking communion reminds us of the sacrifice Jesus made, and I'm guessing many of the Jewish holy days fulfil the same purpose, so that people can remember things God has done.

I think the bible does make it fairly clear that God is more interested in the state of our heart than the outward things we do though.

[paradise lost]

If that is the case, that the state of our heart is more important, is it still important for us to keep rituals? Does God need us to keep our rituals when the intention of the rituals (to remember Him and live a good life) has been achieved outwith ritual? When we have small children we remind them of their manners again and again until they have an inherent feeling for manners and are polite people. We no longer remind them as adults (usually) because we know they have the knowledge and leave the choice with them. Is Christian humanity grown up enough to live without the rituals God asked for in the cradle of Christianity?

Can any Buddhists, Muslims or Jews join in and tell about what ritual means and its significance?

Bec

[~Trish~]

I think the bible does make it fairly clear that God is more interested in the state of our heart than the outward things we do though.

I think so too.

I don't think I have to perform any rituals, but I do like some of them (communion for example) to remind me of their significance.

"Is Christian humanity grown up enough to live without the rituals God asked for in the cradle of Christianity?"

I sincerly hope so! I think the Word of God should be so ingrained in our hearts that we can live the way we are meant to without having to perform a ritual. I think the rituals are a nice way of recognising each occasion they are meant for.

Sorry for being a bit all over the place, it is my bedtime!

[AngelPunks]

I'm a pagan and practising witch - most of the christian "holidays" come from the pagan paths.

I've read the bible (including a latin version), it is an interesting read. But then again I love reading about other religions and want my kids to grow up knowing about other religions, in an unbiased way.

[Heaven]

I think this sums it up

Matthew 6:1-6
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

[Bathsheba]

Thanks SarahJane, it's good to know that what I've been doing intuitively fits in with what has been documented as being "right". I agree that some rituals are very affirming. However, (and at the risk of me being thought of as a crazy woman) the way that I have an almost constant inner dialogue with God through out my day I think is just as important. He is really at the forefront of my thinking, not just something that I think about during a ritual or going to church.

[Heaven]

I don't think you're a crazy woman, lol, in fact that's what we were told to do. Good for you if you actually can!!!! I find it hard and am distracted easily, lol.

1 Thes. 5:16-18
Rejoice evermore.
Pray without ceasing.
In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

[Bathsheba]

Oh I'm easily distracted as well! But my "inner chatter" will kinda refer to what God wants me to do (well within my limited knowledge) while going about my day... if I brag about stuff I'll kinda apologise to Him saying "Oh I KNOW you prefer I be a bit more humble... etc" doesn't stop me making the same mistake nearly every day though! Hopefully eventually I'll gradually become a person with more humility...and patience....and self discipline..and all the other virtues!

[kerry]

Ok have been offline for a few days and have a few to add.

Yael - (as per Nelle) would you prefer we wrote G-D? I understand why you do so and would be only to happy to oblige.

Rayray - you can have MJ baptised in a Uniting church as a a non-denominational christian... therefore he is christained but not into a church with its Dogma. HOWEVER don't baptise him just because he is the only one who isn't. I would leave it unless its something you truely feel deep down inside that you need to do for him. What about having father bob do it, its not like he is typical of our church at all.

I actually like a lot of the dogma... but then I think that's one of my draw cards... the routine, ritual and history.

So here is some dogma for you on Limbo (go back about 50 pages..lol)... Yes Rayray the current view on Limbo is that it is out. Limbo has only been around since the 1300's and is really a theological place. (For the non catholics) We have this concept of 'original sin' which we are all born with and 'personal sin' those sins we commit ourselves. Anyway we baptise our babies so young because it is believed that Baptism absolves us of our original sin and only those who are baptised without sin can enter the Kingdom of G-D. So if an infant dies before baptism they will not be able to get into the KoG. Historically this quandry was first faced by Augustine of Hippo and his basic ruling that was those babies who died before baptism would be condemned to damnation although there suffering would be slight. Catholics will no baptise still born babies. SO there were some issues with this. It was thrown around by theologians for many many years and then in the 1400's a group of theologians came up with the principle that those babies (later extended to the age of 7) who died without being baptised would go to Limbo, or more precisely the Limbo of the Infants (there also a Limbo of the Patriachs which is for those non-baptised adults (heathens) who were honorable and ''good christians'' (can't think of another term) in their actions but due to not being baptised had not absolved their original sin and therefor couldn't go to paradise so they went to Limbo of the Patriac and on Jesus' return he would judge them for their worthiness to go into heaven.. this is still around in our catechism). Basically Limbo of the infants (here in Limbo) was never an 'offical' doctrine of the church (RC) but was taught in varing degrees throught the world. Then with Vat II it was just not mentioned. This ommission caused further debate and the thinking was split in the church... Limbo, which had never really been was back out, but the church 'taught' that if you chose to believe it then that was ok. With the re-write of the catechism that occured in 1992/4 (blanking on the date but during my final years at school) it was commented on that Limbo wasn't real and as per the special funeral service for infants that died without baptism we would place their eternal souls at the mercy of G-D because while we are tied by the rulings of the catechism he is not and he has it within his power to place their little souls in paradise, so we must have faith in his decision. SO why the change??... the prevailing theory amoungst catholic theologians and questioners is that it is to do with the current availability of termination/morning after services.... the thought is that without a state of Limbo then there is greater strain on those parents that would terminate because their babies can not reach paradise or almost paradise (limbo... the edges/hem of paradise without beatific vision... so a nice bright shiny place but not quite heaven)... ergo dropping limbo is basically to put people off termination.

Personally I like the concept of Limbo. Admittedly it isn't part of Jesus' teachings but it was a nice concept to circumvent the dictates and thus appease the parents (particularily mothers) of children who died before baptism... so the thought behind it was very nice and caring, IMO.

On making my kids (ok DD) go to church with me... its just something she will have to do until she is old enough to stay home alone and not come. I don't have an issue if she decides that she doesn't want to go to church as it was during this time that I personally made peace with my beliefs and decided that it was something that made me a better person. So should she decide that she doesn't want to go, I wont stop her. Should she tell me she wants to change her religion then it want change the way I feel about her and I wouldn't try to make her not do so... well maybe I would if it was some way out their cult... then I think I would have to step in and de-program her.

Ok so here is a question for ALL of us weather we be muslim, jewish, christian, hindi, budist, shinto, wiccan, atheist, agnostic or ANY OTHER .... what is the one thing you value most about your religion/faith?

For me is the fact I am never alone in anything I do and I am a much better member of my society.

[~Trish~]

Ok so here is a question for ALL of us weather we be muslim, jewish, christian, hindi, budist, shinto, wiccan, atheist, agnostic or ANY OTHER .... what is the one thing you value most about your religion/faith?

Well, as I stated yesterday I am a Christian and there are many things I value about my Christianity, but the most valuable of them all is that I know I am loved unconditionally by God. No matter what I do or how many times I mess things up I know I am completely forgiven and loved. That love has been so precious to me throughout my life, especially as I grew up without the love of my own father.

Can't wait to hear what everybody else values!