Religion

[Bathsheba]

That was really well said Re: trust Nelle and I agree, I have yet to find a single untrustworthy aspect to God. On the reverse side there are many people who are vocal in their lack of faith who I do not trust. I know not all Christians are trustworthy but I have certainly been hurt by many many more people who I know have no faith in anything beyond themselves. My relatives, for example, who I know are Christians have never betrayed my trust.... is it coincidental that those who i know do not believe in God have all either let me down or deeply hurt me? Proof of God's existance lies in weight of evidence and it's all these little things that add up.

Also, sorry for the confusion SarahJane... Kerry was right, I didn't want it to seem that I had ignored your post which I hadn't read at that point...'cos we posted at the same time

[paradise lost]

Something i find fascinating is that many of our celebrated scientific geniuses, including Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein, were, throughout their lives, devotedly religious, in their cases, Christian. Some of the most intelligent people that have ever lived had faith, that tells me something.

I do not believe in evolution as it is documented currently. There is no evidence. There is no continuous chain in any species. It is no more proven than Faith can be, so i don't understand why it is such a popularly held belief among those who claim not to 'blindly believe" (my XP's favourite hobbyhorse re:religion that, blind faith). Science is a journey, not a destination, Faith is the same.

Bec

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I thought Einstein was a Jew? No less a man of faith for that, however!

I do know one girl who says that she can't take a leap of blind faith to be an unbeliever, she just has no way of ever even contemplating there is no God, given how good and constant He has been in her life.

Whilst debating evolution vs Christianity I did, at one point, tell the other side that fine, they can be slime. I'm lovingly created in God's own image. (I won that debate LOL - I did make more rational points than that.)

[paradise lost]

LOL, i think you may be right there about Einstein being Jewish Ryn, although he had more of a general view of religion - but yes, Faith being a constant in the lives of the super-intelligent is what comforts me.

Einstein said:

The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the power of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.

I am a woman after his heart

Bx

[Lulu]

Patch it's not about flaming, you're just in the wrong place. I think your argument is simplistic at best, and no the conversation won't be satisfied in here, mainly as it's not what we are talking about.
You can start another thread if you like, in fact I have seem some terrific discussion threads on some other boards that are in a similar vein.

***Coming from the biggest non-contributor (but avid reader) of this thread, it probably sounds silly, and I'm not religious myself,but I'm getting alot out of it.

I remember my Physics lecturer telling us that many, many scientists end up quite religious as there are things that can't be explained by the science of things.

[Bathsheba]

Thanks for posting that quote from Einstein Bec

I love science, especially biology and physics when I was at school. I used to sneak into nursing lectures at uni when I knew there was going to be an interesting one too! (I was a Fine Art student) I believe in a process of evolution but I think Darwin may have got some element of his thoery a bit wrong... I can't explain why... just a feeling. So I guess I believe in a blend of Creationism and Evolution.

ETA: Wow Jelvie...what a transformation! I've heard of a few situations like that.

[Heaven]

Patch, this thread is more about letting others know about your beliefs and learning, not debating what's right and minimising others beliefs.

Personally, I find it weird that people believe in evolution without evidence but can't believe in God. Seems to me everything I believe in the bible has been proven by science IMO.

[Jennifer13]

My father was also a scientist and a creationist. Didn't believe in evolution at all, as far as I know.

[kerry]

Sorry girls I'm gunna buck the bull here and say that I don't think Patch is in the wrong place at all. This thread isn't about a group of people who believe in god comparing beliefs or re-affirming their own surely. I was under the impression that we wanted to explore how others expressed or felt their own spirituality. Patch just doesn't believe there is any g-d, there's nothing wrong with that, its her choice and what works for her. Just because she doesn't believe in g-d/s doesn't mean any of us have the right to tell her she is in the wrong place. She has raised some good questions that are interesting to explore. Athough in the same regard Sarah is also right, we can all comment without degressing into nasty snide remarks about anyones personal beliefs.

While I enjoy debating creationalism and evolution (personally I believe in both, go figure, never said I wasn't scizophrenic) and depending on my mood can spring to the defence of either argument I'll be honest in saying that the practices, traditions and histories of different religions was what drew me to this thread in the first place.

Just to address some points Patch has raised... Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the same G-d, just different practices/dogma and approaches to how the go about worshipping him. There are such things as Islamic, Judaic, Hindi Values to name a few. The non-denominational words to describe them are social conciense and courtesy, I don't think any religion has and particular claim over these values.. its just they sit nicely within the teachings of the 'church' but they are not explusive to believers, anyone can be courteous and have a social conciense. I was lucky growing up, my parish priest were always somewhat liberal and one of them taught us that "if being a member of a religion makes you a better member of your bigger society/community (not just the church one) then that religion is what is right for you. No religion is right or wrong persay, it is all an individual perspective". I have always liked this annalogy. So for me I don't think by being Catholic I am right and someone who is a muslim is wrong, I don't think about it like that. I do however thing that when someone uses their beliefs to defend murder, genocide, rape, brutality, suppression or abuse then they are wrong!... if we can live in harmony with many different beliefs and religions then that's a 'value' we should all strive for.

I'm struggling to understand why we can accept each others different religious beliefs and discuss them calmly and with coureosity and respect but are struggling to accept someone who doesn't believe there is any higher being. Doesn't make ehr any less of a person than the rest of us. However I do think that some of Patch's comments are aimed to insight dissent. Jst as we should respect her right to believe there is nothing, I think also she should respect our right to believe there is something, even if it is a purple teapot orbiting Pluto.

Come on... say what you need to without being snide or rude... all of us... or we are just going to make a mockery of the 14 pages of thread we have behind us.

[Nelle]

Sure Kerry, anyone's welcome here, Sara Jane wanted to know what we believed and we're doing that! I'm cool with Patch's beliefs, though I believe pretty different from her! But everyone's certainly entitled to make up their own minds on these things.

Gotta say though, I have to disagree with your parish priest. Jesus taught 'I am the way, the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me'. So if no religion is right or wrong, than Jesus is wrong, so I as a bible believing Christian am wrong.
This is definitely not a teaching of Jesus that makes Christians popular, but Jesus said it so I'm stuck with it. He also taught that Christianity isn't exclusive, so no-one's excluded by that statement, and he also taught that he has a big problem with people treating others badly because they believed different.

[Heaven]

I thought Patch was a he??
Anyway, I don't disagree with him/her participating and stating his/her beliefs. I disagree with the parts that make me feel like he/her thinks my religion is stupid:

I find the idea of a supernatural being as ridiculous.
I am also for free thinking and not blindly following something because it is written in the bible, koran or whatever other "bible" you follow.
Greek Gods are not accepted as being the stuff of myth and yet we continue to believe in the christian God.....*lol*

We can state our beliefs without belittling others beliefs I think. Well I know coz that's what we have been doing and I've really enjoyed it!!

Nelle, I really like that quote. But yeah I agree prob doesn't make us popular, lol, but I think other religions might think the same thing?? I don't know. But it doesn't mean everyone else is out, they'll still get a chance, so I like that too.

[Bathsheba]

Kerry: I agree and congratulate you on your spirit of inclusiveness regarding Patch. He/she obviously thinks about spirituality probably more than he/she will admit to and this has motivated him/her to participate in this post. If he/she was truely confident in his/her beliefs, or should I say non belief then our thread would more likely have been ignored altogether.

I also agree with SaraJane and can't ignore the inflamitory remarks Maybe Patch hasn't actually read our thread in its entirity otherwise he/she would realise that those remarks stand out like a sore thumb and would be ignored as irrelevant to our discussion, be in breach of the moderator's recommendations of respect given the highly sensitive nature of the discussion and... most of all.... prove our point that having a belief system (be it Christian, Jewish, or even Wicca) is more likely to result in respecting the ideas of others with beliefs. Being rude simply contradicts the point that you don't have to be a Christian to have manners. Plain and simple: Patch is the only non believer to have made a comment in this thread and is also the only one to have said something inflamitory and disrepectful. Putting other people's beliefs down is a pretty poor strategy if you really desire any credibility. Still, if Patch is willing to post respectfully i agree that his/her contributions are most welcome. I am perfectly ok with having my own belief system questioned

[Nelle]

Oh! Sorry if you're a guy Patch! Hope I haven't given you any gender crisis. I'll try to refrain from making uninformed comments, haha.

[Beach Mama]

Hi all - Im another lurker in this thread and just wanted to give you all a pat on the back for the gracious and respectful way you have dealt with the issues here! It can be and is at times a highly controversial issue but the way you have shared your beliefs and dealt with all the various themes/issues/opinions that have come up have made for interesting and thoughtful reading - so hats off to you all!

I havent posted because I dont know what I believe anymore!! Long story cut short - grew up in a pentecostal church from age 8 -stopped attending at 17 and have been searching since! Although Im not an active church member I still believe in God, pray and at times read my bible. Since having Izzy Ive wondered what I will teach her... anyway thats where Im at and thanks again for the great thread!!
PS Patch is a he! Previous posts read - my wife and I.

[kerry]

I agree I think there are quite a few religions that follow similar lines, although with a lot of them there is no chance at judgement for non-believers.

Yes Sarah you are right, points of view should be expressed without belittling others. I tried to say that non-confrontationally in my post above. I had similar issues with Patch's post and pretty much at the same points you quoted.

I think I'm just worried that this has become a christian dominated thread as we aren't getting input from people of other faiths anymore? Did we scare people off? Are we being too evangelical?

ETA - sorry Patch i think i started the whole calling you a she thing. Rather silly of me really, just got on my high horse and posted away. Hope no offence has been taken.

ALSO ETA - Nelle, I understand why you disagree with my priest and thats fine. That's my biggest issue with christianity (well ok one of them)- the we are right you are wrong, I don't think I mind that so much but more so the "ner-ner-na-ner-ner" approach some people attach to it (not directed at anyone here... then you have all the different christian sects (RC, eastern orthodox, pentacostal, CoE, Lutherain, etc) does it then go that one of those particular sets of practices is correct and the others wrong also, which when I was a kid still tended to be a bit of an issue. I think in his way the old father was just trying to find something that kids would understand and thus avoid the conflicts that were about to ignite in the area when I was a kid, there was a big greek orthodox vs catholic vs prodestant vs muslim thing simmering away where I grew up waiting to errupt into some nasty stuff.

[Nelle]

You know Kerry, I was wondering if we shouldn't have a 'Christianity' thread, not to be exclusive, but where we can nut out particular aspects of our faith without scaring people off, and then keep learning about other peoples faiths and world views in this thread - I was really interested in hearing about Judaism, Islam, Wiccan, and others. Just how what they believe affects their lives.

[Bathsheba]

I think I'm just worried that this has become a christian dominated thread as we aren't getting input from people of other faiths anymore? Did we scare people off? Are we being too evangelical?

I know what you mean Kerry and i agree... however Patch's contribution didn't really seem to be in the spirit of things (excuse the pun ) But he is definately welcome to contribute if he can be a tad more respectful.... it's a bit like a member wandering into any of the support groups eg the Termination Support Group and saying that they don't believe abortion is right... ok... fair enough... but find another thread please and be mindful that your comments may upset.

ETA: Kerry, just to be clear, I really admire your inclusiveness darl

[kerry]

Bath - no issues with anything you (or the others) have said.