When your beliefs are different to family/friends...

[Heaven]

Ryn- would be interested to hear what you think whenever you look into that article more thoroughly (even if you don't agree and why, like to hear all perspectives!)

Lulu-

Sarah-

The hardest part about personal beliefs is when you feel like you have to defend them, they are personal and therefore not up for negotiation with friends or family that's hardest part for them to understand.

Totally agree!!!!!!! I don't see why people should have to defend their beliefs to family who don't agree, non of their business!!

[AngelPunks]

I'm a card carrying pagan & witch and my family have just had to deal with it over the years. My brother & his wife's family are all staunch catholics and they've learnt that I will sit there quietly during "prayer" before meals but I will not join in (well I do my own dedication of the food), that if they come to my place for dinner then they get to listen to my dedication to the God/dess for the food. I will also go to church with them and if pushed will have an in-depth conversation over the pagan imagery & iconry the service just had (their parish priests have learnt NOT to sit next to me at a dinner after church!).

In saying that, my children (when I have them) will probably end up going to a catholic school & I will teach them about other religions as they are growing up, so they can make their own choices - even though they will be of a hereditary blood line & will be taught that lineage & about their inherited power, but I won't push them, I will allow them to chose their own paths.

I'm lucky that my closest friends are of similar paths to me, and even if they don't follow a lot of the things that I do, they are more tollerant. For example - before a ritual I chose to fast for a few hours, whereas they will eat before a ritual - they don't push me to eat anymore but will allow me to save food from the first feasting to have after ritual.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I should have brought my Bible to work - very little for me to do today! I could have studied more!

I think the main thing that struck me in the article was the laws BEFORE the old covenant and AFTER the new - for example, disobeying God's word was clearly a no-no (see the Fall), killing a no-no (Cain KNEW he wasn't a good boy by killing Abel), meat was clean and unclean, even if Noah didn't know which was which then it would have been explained then or just two lists, those animals to come in twos and those in sevens. Fornication was also wrong (although Lot was just after the old covenant I think... aaaaagh I know he went with Abram, was that when it started, Abram listening to God's word and moving, or was that when Abram became Abraham or was it with Jacob... you know, I need to go back to Genesis and start again I think!).

Then I thought, well, if the early Christians didn't do it, why? Was it just a hang-over of the old laws? After all, Paul said that only eating blood was wrong, nothing else. Was it that it was taken as read it continues and therefore just not mentioned specifically?

The point that Jesus wouldn't waste fish but would do pigs was a good one, but that was before the new covenant because he hadn't been sacrificed for us yet, so therefore invalid IMO.

I'll need to re-review the letters from that article too, but for now I'm finding it hard to avoid piggie things while shopping (poor DH, he hasn't realised yet)! It's everywhere! Which then led me to think that it is wrong because if it were OK then Satan wouldn't be pushing piggie on every single meaty product you can buy - but then I'm a bit paranoid about demons and temptation sometimes. But just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean Satan's not out to get me!

[Heaven]

rofl Ryn! Reading your post was like reading my thoughts. Those are all the things that went through my head when I was reading about it. I just think, like you said, the laws were there since the beginning, Jesus followed them, and so did the early Christians. And if they were to be done away with then wouldn't Jesus have made it really clear in the Bible, rather than open to interpretation? Hmm... it's interesting anyway. And omg I know what you mean about pig!! I didn't realise how much people ate it until I wasn't eating it anymore!!

ETA- see now pigs are evil!!!!

Thankyou for a view from another religion too punkin! I can't even imagine what my family would be like if I changed religions altogether

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Here's a question: I've always thought the old covenant started with Abram - God changed his name to Abraham and told him that his decendants would cover the world and he'd be the father of a new religion. This was re-affirmed with Isaac and Jacob. Then there's the laws given to Moses - some class that as the covenant re-starting. So when did it start?

So confusing!

But as for Lot: Sodom was a bad place, Lot moved there, Abram -> Abraham, Sodom destroyed. So fornication is a Bad Thing still (as if we didn't know that!).

[Bathsheba]

Just on the pig products: DH, the kids and I don't eat mammals but pig seems to be the hardest to avoid I agree. And I'm not easily offended but when people think that they can serve you up something with diced pork in it and think that that's ok even though you tell them you don't eat red meat... well.. that really confuses me!!!

Addressing the broader issue: I'm fascinated by people who struggle with what I choose to believe... even though it has got absolutely nothing to do with them. I don't push my beliefs onto anyone in my life... but I have observed that it's the people that believe in nothing that seem the most determined to change your mind. Interesting.

As I get older I am less antsy about potential conflict about differences in faith. I know that I am a considerate person and that's what counts. If people around me are going to use religion as a reason to get all hot under the collar then that says more about them and their insecurities than anything. Anger is just another manifestation of fear. I'm not responsible for anger in other people... I'm just responsible for treating people with respect and/or avoiding them if they don't treat me with dignity/respect. If I can't avoid them (like you can't always avoid family) then I still treat them with the most basic level of civility and nothing more. I don't believe that you should justify them treating you poorly for treating them poorly IYKWIM 'An eye for an eye' philosophy went out with the Old Testament... I do the New Testament 'turn the other cheek'. Let them treat me like crap... so it will give me the opportunity to take the higher ground and show them up for what they are... disrespectful. It will catch up on them eventually. Being a calm, respectful, genuine, honest and caring person is the best "advertisement" for your faith. If somebodies faith doesn't bring these traits out in them then what does it say about them and what they believe? My faith says to avoid judging others... and at the end of the day that's what I try to uphold. Most importantly I'm not going to get too upset if people don't acknowledge my faith... if Satan is trying to break my soul then he would probably be encouraging me to get all indignant and offended. So... "Meh". If people don't like what I believe then fine... and if they are disrespectful then fine... and if they say hurtful things then fine that shows the world that they are hurtful people (their loss not mine).

I am vigilant about people not sneaking mammal meat into my children's food but at the end of the day what can i do if it occurs? I'll be upset for about 5 minutes, remind myself that it won't infact kill them, then move on because I think that is what God would prefer that i did. Satan would love me to get so outraged and upset that I ended up becoming angry and vindictive... so I'll not do that. It's not worth it. I save my fury for greater crimes.

SJ all i can suggest is that you cultivate inner peace darl. You will always come across the disrespectful. Use it as an opportunity to rise above it. I also find that it's often good to consider why people are the way they are... it might have very little to do with you... they could be in a bad mood for other reasons; poor health, mental illness, who knows what.... and you're the poor unsuspecting person who cops it. Families are tricky because our expectations are higher but at the end of the day the people in families are just as prone to all the trials of everyone else.

Finally... regarding my kids... I'm starting to relax a bit as I see my 13yo DD start to demonstrate that she truly has become the kind of person my faith was hoping her to be. I would have thought by now that she would be making her own choices regarding things like meat consumption but she maintains a strong aversion to mammals (but likes fish, poultry and eggs so she has a healthy level of protein in her diet)... and I have heard her explain to others why she doesn't eat red meat and it now seems to be her own choice just as much as mine. She also has written in her MySpace page that she believes in God so I'm confident that everything else will fall into place I hope I get it just as right with my boys!

[Heaven]

Ryn- Now I'm confused, lol, I have no idea!

Bath-

I have observed that it's the people that believe in nothing that seem the most determined to change your mind

I totally agree! And I don't understand why. They seem to be the most aggressive about it, but what for, it doesn't concern them!

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

OK, SaraJane, just thought I'd come back with my thoughts on the whole piggy debate.

Peter had his vision about the clean/unclean bit, which relates to the fact he can go to spread the word to the Gentiles. But didn't he already know this? Jesus told him to go and make disciples of the whole world at the end of Matthew's gospel, that would involve Gentiles too. BUT the main thing about preaching to the Gentiles would be going to their houses and partaking of their hospitality. Gentiles wouldn't be serving kosher food, so therefore the Jewish Christians would be asked to eat food they considered unclean. Therefore the restrictions would have had to be lifted so that the word could be spread.

Secondly, Paul's letters (can't remember which right now!) tell us two things. One is the old laws still in use - not only love God and be excellent to each other (ok, I paraphrased) but no fornication and no misuse of blood. Nothing about clean/unclean. Second thing is that he chastises Peter for pretending he's above the Gentiles and trying to force Gentile Christians into the old laws about food, when it is no longer important. I mean, if you're able to eat food sacrificed to an idol then really nothing is off-limits.

Just my thoughts on this. It's not that important to me as I don't really eat it anyway but I thought it would be best to consider it strongly in case I should be cutting it out of DH's and DS's diets. OK, DS's diet - the power of a wife is amazing but not if she just blanket bans her husband's favourite foods!

[eiliyah]

DH and I are both practising Muslims, and are amazed at the religious differences I have with my own mother and my inlaws, despite all being Muslim. One fantastic example is Christmas - My mother is quite "extreme" and thinks Christmas is a sin to celebrate. My inlaws, on the other hand celebrate it with a lot of vigour and passion.

Personally - DH and I have decided that we do not want our future children to celebrate Christmas, as we have our own religious celebratory holidays, however, we want our children to be charitable and give to those less fortunate at Christmas, as we want them to know that there are people out there who wont be as fortunate as them. I think this is a great way to make them respect the good will that Christmas brings, as well as understanding that all people deserve to be happy and healthy no matter what faith they are.

Unfortunately my inlaws think I'm a "fundamentalist" for choosing not to celebrate "just another holiday" and on the other end my mother accuses me of not being a good Muslim because I can stoop as low as respecting an "inferior" religious holiday.

Argh.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

It's hard because Christmas is a cultural holiday these days, not a Christian one specifically - you can have a tree, a Yule log, a big dinner and gifts without Jesus being involved at all. It is just another holiday and excuse for excess in the UK. It's getting so I don't want to be involved with it!

From my understanding - please correct me if this is wrong - but aren't Muslims supposed to honour the traditions and culture of the country they're in? Not doing something against their faith, but still being a part of the country and not alienating themselves? (So worshipping a false idol may be cultural but out, but having a family dinner on a certain day is tradition so that's OK, such as the American Thanksgiving.) In my mind, Christmas is just a nice time to have paid time off work and see the family, it has no religious significance to the masses these days. We've already said this year we're not doing a big celebration, just looking forward to seeing family.

Fine, so you're respecting an "inferior" holiday - but you're also respecting Australian culture, which surely is important?

Please correct me if this is wrong, but the "fitting in" thing was explained to me by a Muslim a few years back, but I know she wasn't that strict.

[Eugenia]

I know I'm a bit late joining in and I hope it's alright, but I just I'd share a few thoughts about religious differences amongst Christians, espcially with regards to Christmas and "fitting in".

I find that even amongst Christians there are a wide variety of beliefs regarding Christmas. Some don't celebrate it at all as the date is all wrong (I can't remember exactly but I think Jesus was most likely to have been born in June? Feel free to correct me) and it is related to pre-Christian pagan celebrations. Others think that because it did eventually become a Christian holiday it should be celebrated to excess and even get offended when people of other religions don't do it, like when shops or restaurants open on Christmas day. DH and I go for a middle line, we celebrate with family and thank God for sending His Son (even if the date is wrong) but we won't be teaching our children about Santa Claus as we don't believe he is a real part of Christmas, especially as he is used to promote greed in children. It's not surprising then that there are wide differences in other religions like Muslims regarding the celebration of Christmas.

Personally we haven't found it too bad although my ILs come from a background that considered Christmas evil and refused to acknowledge it. Funnily enough our arguments now are regarding which family gets us on Christmas day and which one has to make do with some other day. I find I tend to dig my heels in a bit when it comes to that and let my family have first choice of days as Christmas has always been more meaningful to us rather than just be an excuse for a family meal like it is with the ILs.

Funny, but it so true about those people who believe in nothing. I have friends of many different religions but I've only ever had arguments about religion with those who called themselves either atheists or agnostics.

[eiliyah]

From my understanding - please correct me if this is wrong - but aren't Muslims supposed to honour the traditions and culture of the country they're in? Not doing something against their faith, but still being a part of the country and not alienating themselves?

From what I've gathered it is against Islam to celebrate the religious events of a differing faith. As a Muslim, I take pride in my own religious celebrations and choose to honour Islam in happily making the most of Ramadan, Eid, prayer and Muslim worship.

However, (and this is a big However) as Muslims we MUST respect the rights and laws of the country we live in. I'm Australian born and bred. My father is an Australian of Irish/Scottish descent. I do not identify with any other nationality but Australian. As a Muslim, I expect my beliefs to be respected, and in return, I have nothing but the utmost respect for those around me. It doesnt bother me in the slightest that Christmas is a big event in Australia. Living here is the choice I have made because I love this country, and I'm so proud to be an Australian.

I dont think my choice to not celebrate Christmas alienates me from society. Its when I start berating others for their personal choices that makes it wrong. The bottom line is to let others be. We all live under the same set of laws which include respect and and peace for our fellow human beings, no matter their faith

[Eugenia]

Eiliyah, if only everyone believed and lived as you do wouldn't this be such a wonderful, peaceful world? Oh well, we can all do our little bit to help.

[Heaven]

Ryn- sorry, haven't been on for about a week so haven't replied. But thankyou for your thoughts on the pig thing!!

It's so sad that in all religions people are criticised by others even of the same religion for what they do or believe!! How frustrating!!
Don't get me started on Christmas, lol. I love Christmas. But, I'm Christian and I want it to be about Jesus in my house, not how many presents you get from Santa. I can just imagine what my family would say if I chose not to do Santa for my kids, I'd be depriving them or something of course. It would be such a big deal that I think I'm just going to do it. But I've decided that I'm not having any Santa decorations or anything like that. We have lots of decorations now but not of Santa or reindeer or anything, and I always buy Christmas cards that actually have the nativity or something on them. Hmm....it's going to be hard though.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

We don't do Santa, SJ. We don't even do stockings (LOL, can't afford to fill them!) although I have - or rather, DS has a very old family one that has been passed down... six generations now? Something like that.

I can see the uproar this year because DH is getting a DVD we get free with loyalty points (maybe after Christmas because it looks like we won't have all the points in time), I'm kniting DS some sheep and I'm not getting anything. Maybe best not to tell family that! But we don't need anything - and DS will get so many toys why add to that? Last year was so ridiculous. All I want is a specific book and a specific film, maybe a pair of slippers... I don't want to write a whole list for MiL, as she always asks for one (then ignores it). But Christmas isn't about gifts so I should remind people that. *gulp* then run away!

And yes, always the ones with no faith that can't respect it. I'm sick of people assuming because they're athiest/agnostic and family they can berate me for hours because I have the truth about Jesus. You don't believe? Fine. You started harassing me and I'll defend myself, yes from the Bible. Because it's true. Bah, blood pressure rising again thinking of this so best be off!

[Heaven]

Ryn- so you don't do Santa at all. You are brave these days I reckon!! Just going off what I think my family would say if I did that

So.....was thinking again, lol........what about the other contraversial religious beliefs....how do ppl deal with them when they come up?

I was also thinking (because of the euthanasia thread), what about when religious beliefs are different to society's beliefs? I know in Christianity for example there are some pretty controversial beliefs which were accepted back in the day but are now not so accepted by society. How do we stay true to our beliefs without offending people?? I just keep it to myself but sometimes these things come up in conversation. How do you deal with it?

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

SJ, it's an easy choice - we can't afford it. I know we'll get more respect from my dad's family for acknowledging our finances and living within our means than for showering Liebs with gifts In-laws probably won't understand as they've never really struggled this much and my mum's family go into debt to treat themselves so won't grasp the concept of income ?20, expenditure ?19/19/6 = happiness (as Mr Micawber put it). In a few years' time, when we can afford it, then we won't see the point in starting it, we'll just buy gifts as and when rather than saving them up for Christmas. TBH, the more I think on it, the crueller Christmas is. You see a toy. You want the toy. Your parents buy you the toy... then make you wait three months before you can play with it because "it's Christmas soon." Let's just do the family time and the Jesus time without the presents, so much fairer. And that way all the toys get played with, not forgotten about (DS is STILL discovering Christmas and Birthday gifts now - 8-10 months later!).

Other "contraversial" beliefs. I go with "love the sinner, hate the sin." And don't enquire too much. If I am asked about it, I will point out I have no problem with the person, just what they are doing. The Bible states XYZ, I believe this, we "can't help the way we're born" but we can help what we do with our adult lives. We may be born into a life of crime, for example, but we don't have to follow that path. Illegal drugs aren't "a bit of fun"; they're not only illegal but they're ruining your body - a body God made for you and gave you. You really think so little of God you're going to destroy your body? Life isn't a race to the coffin, slamming in there with pickled liver, tar-filled lungs and an "I've lived" sign around your neck (as so many proudly believe); it's about respecting yourself, your LORD and your salvation - and proclaiming proudly a sign around your neck that says "I will live again - bring on the second coming!"

[Rafa*]

Hi everyone, just finished reading all that !! First time here, and it is such an interesting forum! Had to read all eheh

Well I was very curious about, in the begining, the "dedication" instead of Christening...

How does that work? Is that linked to any religion?

And to all that stuggle with their families/friends, first thing that came into my mind was: "I would try to find the right moment and give little pieces of information on my views, so they can start to understand them..."
Would do that during different times we met, but just in little pieces, so they don't feel "pressured" or think I'd be trying to convert or convince them something...

And SJ, as your family makes the comments as a "joke" that you can't really answer about, just do the same...

When you have a chance in a conversation, mention someone you met (even that it's not anyone, just someone "made" for the example ahahah) and that you connected with because "this person" is so open-minded, respects different things even that they're different from what she/he thinks and believes...that you admire that and joke that it's "so good to know someone that is different from the others" and that she/he makes you feel so comfortable..

Adjust that to your own way...That may get them, and if not, well, it was worth trying hehe

Just an idea...