Do You Think Childhood Vaccinations Should Be Compulsory?

[Trillian]

It is not the vaccination that loses effectiveness over time, it is the fact that the immune system "forgets" over time. Which is why they reccomend booster shots and that there are very few vaccines that are only given once. Catching diptheria naturally does not give you lifelong immunity so why would having a vaccination against it give you lifelong immunity? Actually having whooping cough does not give you lifelong immunity, nor will the vaccine, again why they reccomend you have regular booster shots. the same with tetanus. If the full strength wild strains wont give you life long protection you can't expect the vaccines to, it is an unfair ideal for them to live up to.

That's exactly it - how many people do bother with booster shots and how is the Govt going to mandate for it? It just cannot work to have it compulsory because you would still have to have boosters as adults and how would you like, as an adult with a mind of your own, to be told that you HAVE to have a vaccination? You wouldn't would you? Because that's what would have to happen - every single person in the country would have to participate in a vaccination program. Once your child is of the age where they are no longer getting vaccinations according to the childhood immunisation schedule what happens then? Do they create an adult immunisation schedule? If you want the choice as an adult to decide what to do, why can't parents have that right for their children?

[LimeSlice]

I just find it really interesting, as I always do when these types of discussions about immunisations, turn to the inevitable "how would you feel if...." scenarios, like the answer to that will always be the same.
And I also find it amazing that people want to put weight behind an argument to put MY child at risk by injecting her with vaccines that have been proven to increase risk of other disorders for which she already has increased risk. I find it phenomenal people think the government can/should enact a blanket policy that is not as varied as each individuals medical history, risks and body.

Because I can guarantee you, I would feel worse about the fact my daughter got MS later in life because she was forced to get a Hep B vaccine than I would about her getting Hep B (or passing it on to someone else), and I would challenge anyone to justify to m why the government should be allowed to force me to increase her risk of contracting such disorders simply for the sake of the flawed notion of inoculation and herd immunity.

[~ Mylitta ~]

This can probably be seen as a little heartless... but my number one priority is my child, not the community as a whole. And that's what's always been forefront in my mind when I debate whether to get DS vaccinated or not. I already have a DSS affected by something that "may" be vaccine related, therefore my DS is at a higher risk. I also have two brother's with the same disorder to a much greater extent, a sister that developed major allergies after being vaccinated (timing "may" be coincidental), and I only ever had one whooping cough vaccine due to having a reaction to the vaccine. After all of that, I think about the risk to DS well before I think about any potential risks to the community.

[Trillian]

This can probably be seen as a little heartless... but my number one priority is my child, not the community as a whole. And that's what's always been forefront in my mind when I debate whether to get DS vaccinated or not. I already have a DSS affected by something that "may" be vaccine related, therefore my DS is at a higher risk. I also have two brother's with the same disorder to a much greater extent, a sister that developed major allergies after being vaccinated (timing "may" be coincidental), and I only ever had one whooping cough vaccine due to having a reaction to the vaccine. After all of that, I think about the risk to DS well before I think about any potential risks to the community.

And that is why a compulsory vaccination program would never work - you simply cannot take into account all the variables that could mean a child would be better off without a vaccination - vaccinations come in a carrier fluid that is made up of many things - things which people can have life threatening allergies to, so once you start having to make exclusions based on issues like these, then people will be wanting exclusions for all types of reasons. Once you start including exclusions to a program it gets confusing and people will wonder why this group of people can be excluded, but they can't.

[LimeSlice]

This can probably be seen as a little heartless... but my number one priority is my child, not the community as a whole. And that's what's always been forefront in my mind when I debate whether to get DS vaccinated or not. I already have a DSS affected by something that "may" be vaccine related, therefore my DS is at a higher risk. I also have two brother's with the same disorder to a much greater extent, a sister that developed major allergies after being vaccinated (timing "may" be coincidental), and I only ever had one whooping cough vaccine due to having a reaction to the vaccine. After all of that, I think about the risk to DS well before I think about any potential risks to the community.

And that is everyone's POV too - THEIR child comes first. As it should be for the most part I think.
It is unfortunte though that some are so uneducated or inexperienced with such things to understand that getting the vaccination can be lethal or seriously detrimental to so many kids out there for myriad reasons.

[Tuesday's Child]

And that is why a compulsory vaccination program would never work - you simply cannot take into account all the variables that could mean a child would be better off without a vaccination - vaccinations come in a carrier fluid that is made up of many things - things which people can have life threatening allergies to, so once you start having to make exclusions based on issues like these, then people will be wanting exclusions for all types of reasons. Once you start including exclusions to a program it gets confusing and people will wonder why this group of people can be excluded, but they can't.

So then we come back to parents being in the best position to decide on behalf of their children.

Vaccination is a medical procedure. Medical procedures performed without consent are assault. If vaccination is made compulsory, what else could people be forced to endure?

[Pretty Butterfly]

I'd be more devastated if one of my vaccinated children (I do have fully and partially vaccinated children) passed on something like that simply because I falsely believed that they were immunised.

The thing is, immunisations are not full protection. Their effectiveness can weaken over time so how do you know that your supposedly vaccinated children aren't the ones spreading the disease/illness to the weak and compromised? If anything, this utopian idea of immunisation can cause people to be careless because they assume that once the injection has been given, that it is OK, their children are fine to be around immunosuppressed people and that they will never catch, nor pass on illness, but the reality is that they may be no safer around these children than those who have never had a vaccination in their life. It is a rather poor reason to force compulsory vaccination on people.

ETA - when you think about it, what is the point of vaccinations anyway? You have them, but how many have ever taken themselves or their children back to test to see how effective they were? If the Govt planned to introduce mandatory vaccinations to reduce or completely eradicate diseases, there would be a bigger push towards booster shots for ALL vaccinations and routine testing to check for effectiveness otherwise the entire exercise is pointless.

SO back to the topic it still comes down to what your rights are as a parent, and as several have said, no matter which side you sit on, you have to support the right of the parents to choose. It is easy to agree with it if it is something you agree with already, but what if this progresses further? Where does it end?

Exactly.

By the time you caculate the amount of people vac actually dont work for, ( me included, I have had a reubella shot after EACH baby as my body rejects it so fast) and then the amount of people whos vac's have run out, then how much vac does this country actually have?? I dont think it would be anywhere near as much as some think. Most vac are gone by the time we are teens, which has been shown and shown again, with massive outbreaks of whooping cough and CP in teens, as they have no vac left, and they dont even realise.

These are the people spreading it the most, not unvac babies. How many unvac babies have such a social life that they are being walked around by mum, just spreading diesease?

My vac kids have a higher chance of catching and spreading many of the things they were vac'd for in the next few years, but my unvac'd ones who have already had these childhood illnesses, have a much lower chance of catching them again, therefore not spreading it. Medical journals have very clearly stated that it is very uncommon for an unvac'd person who has had CP to get it again, actually a lower chance than a vac person. Having a childhood illness gives you more protction than a vaccine. I have 3 kids that have already have CP twice, and 3 littlies that will most likely never get it again. Out of my 6 kids who is at most risk of passing it on later? The 3 vac'd ones....actually, they already gave it to their siblings!!!

So to a vac person, what is the difference?? ( I ask this seriously, not be a pain!)

You could catch CP of a 4 month old little baby who missed one lot of shots (not very probable) or off an vac teen/adult/elderly ( much, much more probable) Almost all cases of whooping cough comes from an adult.

So if I dont vac MY baby, how does that harm yours? Its the adult who thinks they are not contagious that is riskier to your child, not my not -walking- yet, not- breathing- over- you- for -at least- 3- hrs baby spreading it around.

Keeping little babies away from catching things is very easy, its a lot harder to control a massive population of teens/adults who "think" they are vac, and actually aren't.

[Pretty Butterfly]

Actually, I just thought, how much more protection would this country have if it were compolsary for adults, not the babies???

The large majority of people who spread, are teens and adults... what if them getting the boosters was mandatory?

Would we see a drop in these dieseases do you think? I would much rather myself have shots, where the side effects are much less riskier, than my babies to get them.

And that would probably serve the wider community better, do you think???

Hmmmm....

[Sammiejane]

It is not the vaccination that loses effectiveness over time, it is the fact that the immune system "forgets" over time. Which is why they reccomend booster shots and that there are very few vaccines that are only given once. Catching diptheria naturally does not give you lifelong immunity so why would having a vaccination against it give you lifelong immunity? Actually having whooping cough does not give you lifelong immunity, nor will the vaccine, again why they reccomend you have regular booster shots. the same with tetanus. If the full strength wild strains wont give you life long protection you can't expect the vaccines to, it is an unfair ideal for them to live up to.

Well I would have to disagree, i have had chicken pox and rubella as a child and as i am pg i have just had my blood work done and all the markers say that i am immune - no booster needed, no additional exposure required. Most of these 'diseases' are NEVER forgotten by your bodies immune system, in fact some of them are stored else where in your body.

[Epacris]

I actually do consider myself a parent that vaccinates my children “for society”, even though there is a small risk to them as individuals. I strongly believe in the importance of maintaining herd immunity to protect those individual in our society that can’t be safely vaccinated themselves.

But this is not really that much of a problem for me because I don’t believe there is a great risk to my children as individuals in having them vaccinated. And the clincher for me is that there is no peer reviewed, published, scientific evidence that the current vaccination schedule is unsafe. As a scientist I am trained in evaluating evidence and I don’t consider anecdotal evidence good enough for me to base my decisions on. And I also believe that there are just as many vested interests in the anti-vaccination campaign.

I guess if vaccination rates drop, herd immunity will drop and we will see more incidences of diseases that used to be controlled by vaccination in both vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. Perhaps then, as a society, and as individuals, our opinions may change?

And I’d like to also add, I personally (and my DH) are fully immunised against a range of diseases. I use the word immunised because our blood tests show that we are. We also don’t smoke, eat healthy food (well, mostly) and put our seatbelts on.

[miss.cinders]

I personally think compulsory vaccination is a huge violation of human rights. We have choice, we deserve them. Who knows what they are going to put in those vaccines, and they already have loads of problems with quality testing and assurance - imagine if that flu vaccine that was giving babies all those convulsions etc happened to all our babies on a mass scale? This is just so so so very wrong. I'll be fighting this one thick and thin.

Couldn't have said it better myslef. 100% agree.

[Bathsheba]

Interesting comment Epacris I like hearing lots of viewpoints! Oh and BTW i prefer wearing seat belts too LOL that was just part of an analogy to explain how something can have incidences of tragedy after use but is statistically safer for the majority. But i still don't think it would be wise to legislate for compulsory vaccination although the word "compulsory" when used by the government is sometimes pretty flexible in reality. It is "compulsory" for a child to attend school.... but we all know that lots of families home school for instance. People hate the word "compulsory"... it just gets everyone's hackles up.... like any strongly emotion laden word does... I reckon it should be compulsory to avoid using the word "compulsory" when referring to the general public! Unless you are living in a dictatorship there are usually ways and means around things to accomodate common sense.

[Mummato2]

If it became compulsory, I'd like to see them track me down and force me into it. I'd go to jail over letting someone inject either of my babies with that toxic crap.

We don't vaccinate at all and I make no apologies for that choice. It's a bloody hard decision to make as a parent and it's a decision I feel strongly about.

[Mummato2]

And I also believe that there are just as many vested interests in the anti-vaccination campaign.

Just as there is a major vested interest in the drug companies who manufacture the vaccines and doctors that choose to give a particular drug company's vaccine to their patients.

It's a major money making industry sadly. Nothing is done for the complete good of mankind - it's all about the dollar.

[Trillian]

There is compulsory, and then there is compulsory kwim? The school argument doesn't really fly because it isn't so much school that is compulsory, but rather education is compulsory, school is just the place that facilitates that.

I think that generally there would be more acceptance of a 'compulsory' program if the reasons why people who don't vaccinate are addressed - by that I mean at the moment, vaccinations are not 100% failsafe, there are risks of them failing and there are risks of severe side effects and even death and that isn't even touching on the crap that they include with them, ingredients that have no place in an adult body let alone and infants. When they can make those changes so that vaccinations are safer, less toxic and more effective then the public may be more receptive to the idea of a program such as this. This isn't too dissimilar to the calls to make the national donor register opt out, rather than the current opt in and I imagine that the same reasons for not having it could apply here - basic infringement of human rights to decide what to do with your body etc.

[Little Chicken]

Well I would have to disagree, i have had chicken pox and rubella as a child and as i am pg i have just had my blood work done and all the markers say that i am immune - no booster needed, no additional exposure required. Most of these 'diseases' are NEVER forgotten by your bodies immune system, in fact some of them are stored else where in your body.

I actually never said the body forgets all the diseases it has ever had. I only pointed out the main three which is why they reccomend regular ten yearly boosters for them.

[Epacris]

I guess I didn’t really answer the question before, I am happy with the way it is now, compulsory vaccination with a small number of contentious objections.

I think that generally there would be more acceptance of a 'compulsory' program if the reasons why people who don't vaccinate are addressed

I couldn’t agree more, genuine concerns need to be taken seriously.

Just as there is a major vested interest in the drug companies who manufacture the vaccines and doctors that choose to give a particular drug company's vaccine to their patients.

I only said that because so often the “drug company” line is trotted out by the anti-vaccination lobby. All I’m saying is that there are vested interests on the other side as well.

letting someone inject either of my babies with that toxic crap.

And FWIW, like pretty much ALL parents, I take my role as a parent very seriously. I love my children with all my heart and soul, I would die for them in a heartbeat and I personally don’t believe that when I have them vaccinated I am injecting them with toxic crap. That for me, as a thoroughly researched and educated scientist, is really hard to hear.

[Mummato2]

I only said that because so often the “drug company” line is trotted out by the anti-vaccination lobby. All I’m saying is that there are vested interests on the other side as well.

Oh I agree - I think it's ridiculous something this huge on both sides is driven by money. So sad