View Poll Results: Do You Think Childhood Vaccinations Should Be Compulsory?

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  • Yes

    56 33.53%
  • Undecided

    17 10.18%
  • No

    94 56.29%
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Thread: Do You Think Childhood Vaccinations Should Be Compulsory?

  1. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
    I think this is the sticking point, because pro-vaxers (like myself) do belive that vaccinations are curing disease by prevention. I know you mean prevention by other means

    Sorry, I mustn't have been clear.
    The core of pro-vax stance, as you have just confirmed, is that vaccines are the conerstone to cure by prevention. which they are, not withstanding other efforts, such as the ones you went on the mention.

    The point I was making though was that given that you believe in cure by prevention, the question I posed at the end of my above post regarding population control after we have irradicated all disease and bacteria, becomes relevant.




    As an aside, there are risk percentiles available for contracting certain disease preventable by vaccine, especially Hep B and the haemorrage illness supposedly helped by the injection of Vit K at birth, and it is their individual risk tht many people use to dertermine whether or not to use vaccines that pose a risk for their kids.

  2. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by LimeSlice View Post


    Personally? I don't believe in the human race as it is now. Simple. That is where I draw the line.
    I am on the fence over when to let babies go and how early is too early, I am on the fence about IVF and alterntive methods of concepton...All from the same starting point - we are overpopulated. There is a ntural reason why babies are miscarried, why some cannot conceive, why some are born blind or with club feet...and on and on and on.
    We are overpopulated.

    And there MUST be therefore birth control, death control or both. At the moment, the human race is intent on allowing and assisting everyone in the world to produce offspring, saving every child that is born, preventing everyone from dying and extending the life off all these people. It is simply physiologically unnatural and unhealthy to the ultimate survival of the species.

    And no, I don't think that accepting that you will NEVER stop ALL disease or bacteria from existing, simply if for no other reason than it is copletely necessary to the function of all natural organisms.
    It may offend people sensibilities because they want to help everyone and hate to see people suffer. So do I. It is paiful to see people who so desperately want children not be able to make them, carry them or birth them; it is devastating to see children dying and wasting; to see 30 year olds dying from cancer...the list is endless.

    But none of that detracts from the broaders physiological argument that we CANNOT sustain life the way modern medicine wants too without destroying the race. There is not enough food or water on the planet now.

    And seriously, if I read one more "well you wouldn't feel this way if it were your children dying, getting sick...." comment I will scream. I WOULD feel that way. I ACCEPT that people may catch diseases and die, I understand that even common illnesses seemingly harmless can cause death and it is heartbreaking. But it is the way it will be, so PLEASE don't presume that you can "defy" me to feel differently in such a a situation. I have lived with ravaging disease for the last 25 years in more than one form and I am at peace with the devastation it causes and know full well its implications.
    Show me the respect of accepting the notion that I am not ignorant who has some grandiose notion of the species but I am a secret hypocrite praying my children don't get sick.

    So the question I pose for those who believe in total illness irradication for the entire world forever is this: Once you do that, achieve that Utopian ideal of the disease-illness-free world, how do expect to control the population, when you will have removed one of 2 of the ways species population naturally moderate themselves?



    I don't really think that anyone is expecting disease to be wiped out completely - well, I am certainly not. I accept that we are human and imperfect and that there are things out of our control. I think it is about giving ourselves the best chance at survival which is actually why some of us choose to vax and some of us choose not to - depending on what we believe is necessary to our own survival and what is a potential hinderance to it.

    I do think we need to be aware of the bigger picture and understand that death is a part of life (because there is so much more that threatens our existence than just disease and illness) but I think all we can do it manage our own lives and the lives of the children and aim for the best possible outcomes for ourselves.

    I think too much of a level of acceptance about the issues of death and disease is dangerous. It is our stubborness as humans to refuse to just accept these things that drive research that improve what we know about health (and the same could be said for research pertaining to the arguments for and against vaccines). I think to believe that it is all foolproof is a niave, but we have to try. I don't want to see the day when we just accept that this is the way the world works because then we all stop trying to achieve. I think we should reach above and beyond what is possible and I see nothing wrong with that. Humans have been fighting for their own survival since the beginning of time and the survival of their offspring. It is instinctual and I see nothing wrong with it.

    I guess this whole issue of compulsory vaccines comes back to what some people believe is necessary for their own survival and seem to hold the belief that if vaccines were compulsory in our community then preventable disease would not be as prevalent. I really don't agree that vaccines should be compulsory, but there is something very primal about this view in terms of fighting for survival. I believe that human rights go hand in hand with our survival and that deprivation of human rights can lead to a whole cascade of behaviours that eventually become a threat to our survival and therefore would be counteractive on that front. Primarily, that is not why I disagree with compulsory vaccination, but my objective in vaccinating my own kids, is also providing the best opportunity for their survival and I feel the measures in place currently are satisfactorily achieving that.

    Lime, you mention some difficult issues in your thread and I think our own 'humaness' can be very confronting at times. I think we deny it is much as possible and to a certain degree, I actually think it is okay. When our denial starts to infringe on the rights of others, I think it crosses a line though.

  3. #237

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    Wow Polly I like you very much. As I do you Limey Isn't it wonderful how diverse we all are, the places we are coming from yet we are hearing each other. I wonder what the world would be like if we could multiply this...

  4. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockinSAHD View Post
    I still get and my children get vaccinated, they also get:
    • Possibly 5-6 times more likely to get asthma.

    • Possibly autism

    • Possbly nasty anaphalaxis (DD had a febrile convulsion once and it was awful in ways I cannot describe).

    • Possibly MS.

    • Possibly sick from the diseases we're immunised against.

    • Even if 94% of our neighbours get immunised.

    • Possibly paid out by the Steiner kids for not being 'natural'.

    • Possibly things we don't even understand yet.

    • Possibly told we smell funny by certain well educated forum members...

    • Its a long list.
    Hmm... it would be interesting if you took the time to actually see what the statistics of your child getting these issues where verses the stats of catching the diseases they're being immunised against and compare the two. I think you'll find the epidemics aren't where you think they are...

    What point is there in swapping one epidemic for the possibility of another? It's all about risks vs benefits - which ever has the highest stats is the one I'm going to worry about.

  5. #239

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    It is always nice to be able to have an intelligent discussion without slanging matches, but with understanding and consideration.

    I can totally see where you are coming from Polly, and you are right, that grey area is there in spades. And our perspective and experiences will always I think ply our opinions on such issues. Thank you for allowing me to speak my mind and hearing it, and thank you for offering your questions and alternatives which I am thinking about in depth.


    ETA: Especially since my spelling has been atrocious!
    Last edited by LimeSlice; August 22nd, 2010 at 05:31 PM.

  6. #240

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    yes I have been slow because I have to keep updating my bad spelling!

    I see you posted just as I was too Limey, so i understand your argument better now.

    I think we managed to resurrect the discussion from the downhill slope it was heading. Yay for diplomacy.

    And Inanna, I always question my authenticity on BB. I am always confronted by the wonderful hearts and minds we have in our community and I luff it! And you all

  7. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeddi View Post
    Those with opposite immune systems smell better than those with similar ones - because opposite immune systems build stronger children.)
    Like Slyder, I often smell bad, I just never expected it was due to my immune system!

  8. #242

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    Makes you wonder though, that if we are all vaccinated against the same things, will there be enough attraction for people to form fertile relationships, seeing as our immune systems are so similar? I know I am being overly simplistic, but the discussion seems to have taken a light-hearted turn.

  9. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
    Makes you wonder though, that if we are all vaccinated against the same things, will there be enough attraction for people to form fertile relationships, seeing as our immune systems are so similar?
    I am attracted to the way DW smells and we made two beautiful looking and smelling children so perhaps vaccinated people can only hang out and get together with vaccinated people!

  10. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockinSAHD View Post
    Like Slyder, I often smell bad, I just never expected it was due to my immune system!
    Where does that statement say YOU smell bad? Do you actually READ what is written, or are you just a contortionist, because you have absolutely no problem with twisting words (and sometimes in the most irrational ways). It was a general statement about the laws of attraction and how smell which is based upon the immune system effects that. Diseases don't CREATE your immune system, they have an EFFECT on it. How each person's immune system reacts to disease will be relative to each person and their own biology. So for the sake of argument, lets say your body created heaps of immunities from being exposed to Whooping Cough (either through vaccination if you want, or natural exposure). You would then smell BETTER to a woman whose immune system didn't create as many immunities after being exposed to the same virus (as in you have opposite immune systems) - because your immune strength equals out her immune weakness in any children you might have. If you both have the same level of immunity in the same areas, you wont smell as good to each other as if you have strengths in different areas. Both being vaccinated or exposed naturally to the same things does not automatically mean that you have the same strength of immunity. However, unlike natural exposure, the immunity built from immunisation is in flux, hence the need for boosters.

    Honestly, what's the point of discussing something with someone who doesn't take the time to give considered responses because they don't do considered reading?
    Last edited by Yeddi; August 22nd, 2010 at 06:32 PM.

  11. #245

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeddi View Post
    Where does that statement say YOU smell bad? Do you actually READ what is written, or are you just a contortionist, because you have absolutely no problem with twisting words (and sometimes in the most irrational ways). It was a general statement about the laws of attraction and how smell which is based upon the immune system effects that. Diseases don't CREATE your immune system, they have an EFFECT on it. How each person's immune system reacts to disease will be relative to each person and their own biology. So for the sake of argument, lets say your body created heaps of immunities from being exposed to Whooping Cough (either through vaccination if you want, or natural exposure). You would then smell BETTER to a woman whose immune system didn't create as many immunities after being exposed to the same virus (as in you have opposite immune systems) - because your immune strength equals out her immune weakness in any children you might have. If you both have the same level of immunity in the same areas, you wont smell as good to each other as if you have strengths in different areas. Both being vaccinated or exposed naturally to the same things does not automatically mean that you have the same strength of immunity. However, unlike natural exposure, the immunity built from immunisation is in flux, hence the need for boosters.

    Honestly, what's the point of discussing something with someone who doesn't take the time to give considered responses because they don't do considered reading?
    ah.. i think he was trying to lighten the tone a bit Yeddi, it's getting a bit offensive in here..

  12. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by boobaloo View Post
    ah.. i think he was trying to lighten the tone a bit Yeddi, it's getting a bit offensive in here..
    I would say it was sarcasm and misrepresentation.

  13. #247

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    Im always extremely sarcastic but I very very seldom mean to offend!

    I did read and think about that post, I don't see how it was taken out of context. You made the statement and it referred to vaccinated people, I am vaccinated, etc.

    I wasnt offended and did comment on it in the spirit of lightening the sombre mood.

  14. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by LimeSlice View Post
    There is a ntural reason why babies are miscarried, why some cannot conceive, why some are born blind or with club feet...and on and on and on.
    We are overpopulated.

    And there MUST be therefore birth control, death control or both. At the moment, the human race is intent on allowing and assisting everyone in the world to produce offspring, saving every child that is born, preventing everyone from dying and extending the life off all these people. It is simply physiologically unnatural and unhealthy to the ultimate survival of the species.

    It may offend people sensibilities because they want to help everyone and hate to see people suffer. So do I. It is paiful to see people who so desperately want children not be able to make them, carry them or birth them; it is devastating to see children dying and wasting; to see 30 year olds dying from cancer...the list is endless.

    But none of that detracts from the broaders physiological argument that we CANNOT sustain life the way modern medicine wants too without destroying the race. There is not enough food or water on the planet now.
    I agree with where you are going with this one... But I'm probably not as big as you, when it comes to applying these principles to my loved ones and myself I can't be so objective...

    I guess the reason I am posting is because I just wanted to put forward a couple of other considerations to the point that you are making.

    While we talk about saving lives and the associated growth in population thanks to modern medicine, I think we also have to remember that modern medicine is also restricting population growth through birth control in the western world. Does the population reduction that birth control delivers cancel out the population growth that modern medicine delivers by saving lives?

    In countries such as India and China, where one could say the population is out of control, I suspect that their immunisation rates and medical intervention is dramatically lower than the western world, as is their use of birth control. Their rates of infant and child mortality are probably much higher, and their average life expectancy is much lower (this is me projecting, I don't know facts and figures). But, does the theory apply here? When we talk about disease and death as a form of population control it doesn't seem to work so well in the most populated countries in the world...

    Again, this is just me thinking out loud, I'm not an expert and haven't done the research, just working off of my understanding of the world and wanting to contribute to what I think is a very interesting and thought-provoking debate (that is a bit off topic ).

  15. #249

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockinSAHD View Post
    I don't see how it was taken out of context. You made the statement and it referred to vaccinated people, I am vaccinated, etc.
    It was not just about vaccinated people at all. It was said as an aside directly after talking about passing on natural immunities to children. Smelling either bad or good to the opposite sex based on differing immune systems is not limited to immunisation. EVERYONE has an immune system - vaccinated or not.

    Again, you twist words and take them out of context. A text without a context, is a pretext and a pretext can be used to prove anything - including misrepresenting a persons point.
    Last edited by Yeddi; August 22nd, 2010 at 07:18 PM.

  16. #250

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    Boobaloo I totally disagree. I don't think it's getting offesnsive in here at all. :shrug: We are all discussing a very passionate topic & for the most part (sarcasm aside) it's been on track. I actually think it's been an amazingly intelligent and enlightening discussion with a great deal of respect shown to all.

    Sarcasm is a dangerous thing to use without facial expressions & in passionate discussion SAHD...

  17. #251

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    A true lightening of the mood would be letting you know that the same scientific research that investigated how differing immune systems and smell effected attraction also showed that strippers get 30% more tips when they're ovulating than strippers who take the pill, because ovulation increases scent.

  18. #252

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeddi View Post
    A true lightening of the mood would be letting you know that the same scientific research that investigated how differing immune systems and smell effected attraction also showed that strippers get 30% more tips when they're ovulating than strippers who take the pill, because ovulation increases scent.
    Gold! Well, I know where and when to go to get that extra cash when needed! hehehe

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