Well I'm certainly learning a thing or two! I'm really getting something out of this little debate.. Keep it up guys!
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Haha i will eventually, i often jump in when there is heaps of replies and look like a total looser but ahhh well thats just me for ya
I dont mean to sound judgmental or whatever coz im not like that, just seen that post and had something to say
sorry guys!!
BellyBelly Member
Well I'm certainly learning a thing or two! I'm really getting something out of this little debate.. Keep it up guys!
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That 92% is third dose of DTaP (or equivalent such as IPV or Hexa).
However! there is still the little bit about 33% coverage in 1980 and less incidences.
Also interestingly, this is backwards to the whole rest of the world.
Countries that have all but eradicated Whooping cough, such as Mongolia, still use the Whole Cell Pertussis vaccine, the same one we used in 1980. We don't now because the acellular vaccine is 'safer'. They also have a much larger infant mortality rate than we do. Victims to the cause?
Yet still we have vaccine related injury, and still we have a consistently increasing incidence of whooping cough. The problem is not that the system is not perfect. The problem is the system is so far removed from perfect I would call it an abject failure.
BellyBelly Member
Of all the disgusting, have no idea what you are talking about, and judgemental of presumptions!! You have a vague acquaintance that might have had autism (aka most probably very high functioning) and you think that makes you qualified to make such statements. How is not being able to walk in very rare cases of polio worse than feeling like everything that touches you is burning you alive or every noise sounds like someone letting off an air horn in your ear? What, because many can't verbalise their suffering then they're not. As a mother of an autistic child I can assure you they're not all Rainman. They feel pain more acutely than you can imagine and everyday is a struggle. On that note, I am bowing out because I can't continue this discussion with civility. What confidence can anyone put on anything you have said in the wake of such obtuse and sophomoric statements?
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Wow RockinSAHD, that's a huge call. Given the choice, I would prefer to be crippled than be trapped in my own mind, but that's my opinion.
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Right on. While my daughter's autism doesn't sound as severe as your child's, it's still been a rough ride.Of all the disgusting, have no idea what you are talking about, and judgemental of presumptions!! You have a vague acquaintance that might have had autism (aka most probably very high functioning) and you think that makes you qualified to make such statements. How is not being able to walk in very rare cases of polio worse than feeling like everything that touches you is burning you alive or every noise sounds like someone letting off an air horn in your ear?
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I'm sorry Yeddi. I didn't realise this affected you personally and it was a stupid thing to say anyhow.
I don't know enough about autism, my friend is a good friend, he still suffers and always will, it's been very hard for his family but I imagine nothing compared with what you or your child experience. I never meant to belittle anyone's pain or anguish and I should've been more sensitive. I can't imagine what it must be like to have my children who I love so suffer that much.
As a man it's too easy to detach emotion and get carried away with ideology, especially over the Internet. I never meant to hurt anyone and would take it back if I could.
Last edited by RockinSAHD; April 7th, 2011 at 04:53 PM.
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We all do stupid things sometimes, especially if you're meGive it a day mate, or maybe PM your apology in case she's staying away from the thread. We can move past this
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For consideration vaccinated children die too, I lost a cousin to Pertussis related complications in 1984 at age 6 months, he was vaccinated.
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The vaccination debate is one in which I fence-sit. I have done mountains of research (I even have a minor in microbiology from my Bachelor of Science degree), and in the end our decision whether to vaccinate or not basically came from our inability to make a decision, hence our littlies are not vaccinated.
A huge part of our decision making came down to family history though. Both my sister and I had nasty responses to the whooping cough vaccine. I almost died when I stopped breathing, and my sister has a lifelong skin condition that has been potentially linked to her receiving the vaccine. Because of that we were nervous about what potential side effects our own kids might have.
Another factor we took into account was the family history of children being on the autistic spectrum in both mine and DH's family. Almost all the boys in both families (our siblings and cousins) are on the spectrum to some degree. Whilst most literature today states that there is no link between vaccination and autism directly, we were unconvinced that there is no indirect link. In fact, we went to see a doctor that specialises in Behavioural and Spectrum Disorders in children who is a qualified DAN practitioner and has lots of experience discovering the causative aetiology behind the development of such disorders. When we discussed our concerns with him and described our family history his final recommendation was to definitely not get the MMR vaccine. He did say that the other vaccines should be fine for my son, but we obviously had other concerns with the whooping cough vaccine. When I asked him to explain how the vaccine might indirectly contribute to autism he gave me a pretty good explanation, and also explained how it meant that the research into vaccines was able to say there is no direct link between the vaccine and autism. But please remember that I am not an autism spectrum specialist nor a vaccine specialist, so my recounting of his explanation may not be perfect. He basically told me that the genetics of some children make them pre-disposed to regressive autism. Regressive austism is where the child develops normally for a period of time and then regresses (usually around 18months to 3 years of age) and is then diagnosed as being on the autistic spectrum. He described the disposition as being like a genetic switch. In many children that switch will never be switched and the child will never become autistic. In other children something can occur to cause the switch to be switched. He believes that the effect the MMR vaccine in particular has on the body of a child can sometimes cause a response that triggers that switch. So while the vaccine itself doesn't cause the autism, the vaccine triggers a process that does cause the autism.
So after all our research we have not vaccinated, and while I still wonder if we've done the right thing, the amazing health of my son strengthens our belief that we are doing the right thing. He is the healthiest child I have ever seen. About 6 months ago my two stepsons (who have both been fully vaccinated) got whooping cough and one of them had a terribly nasty cough and was home from school for about 2 months. Even my DH got a bit of a cough for a week or so. While we were pretty diligent about hygiene and semi-quarantining the sick from the healthy, we were still all living in the same house. Both myself and my son who are unvaccinated were the only two not to get whooping cough. This led me to research why the three fully vaccinated people in the house would catch it and I found this answer:
New strain on whooping cough vaccine - News - Virtual Medical Centre
That obviously doesn't ecplain why my son and I didn't catch it, but I put that down to good immune systems
~Stoked~ - I read a few pages back that your immunity level had gone up for rubella and you were unsure why. It's possible that in the year since you had the levels tested you may have come into contact with someone that had rubella and you may have contracted some of the virus. Because you already had some immunity your immune system would have very quickly recognised the virus and set to work combatting it. This means you may have had the virus briefly without even knowing it. But this brief exposure would have boosted your immunity levels again.
Hmmm, I'm sure that there was something else I was planning on writing, but over the course of the last 5 hours that it took me to write this in between looking after the kids, I've totally forgotten what it was, lol.
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Mylitta, that is part of what I described above. When we weer all vaccinated, Australia was still using DTwP. We switched to DTaP in 1997 (complete in 99) as it was considered "90% safer" than DTwP. More children experience side effects with the whole cell antigen.
However, it is very clear that the acellular antigen is not working. It is specifically targeted and as you have discovered, there is two other strains of whooping cough out there that it isn't doing anything for. But even then, we have the worst incidence rate of whooping cough in the developed world. Ours is worse than developing countries too but you have to consider the possibility of unreported cases. For 2009 Australia had 0.12%, where as the USA was 0.0043%, UK was 0.0013% and Canada who are concerned about their "outbreaks" look at 0.005%.
The thing that is really annoying me is that they have to know this. For example.
Australia started switching to aP in 1997 with a two year phase in. So claiming it is in 'the whole cell era', while partially correct, is deliberately misleading. Now these numbers never came down much, they have been going up and up. In 2009 there was near 30,000 cases! The only country in the world to report more than us was India and they have over a billion more people! The report I pulled that out of was dated 4/2/2011. A doctor has look at these numbers and also said, hey, something isn't right here. That is how they are trying to whitewash it.The removal of the 18-month booster dose could also be contributing to the epidemic, and the Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation was considering whether it should be reinstated on the vaccination schedule, he said.
Acellular vaccines appeared to be associated with less severe disease, he said.
"We had the big epidemic, 1997 to 1999 in the whole-cell era; across the country there were 9 deaths", he said.
Here is the problem though. aP is clearly minimally effective, if at all. It could be something about our climate that just makes it pointless. wP, while effective is known for reactions like yours and your sisters at a more frequent rate.
Its a decision I wouldn't want to make.
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The article that Mylitta posted did point out that the current vaccine is still 85% effective. The strains that are covered by the current vaccine are still most likely the vast majority of whooping cough in the community.
I wouldn't call that minimally effective or at all. Just sayin'.
I wouldn't call It a whitewash but it's obvious that the vaccine needs to be updated to reflect the new strains of the disease.
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I'm not sure that that is what the article is saying. It wrote "the vaccine is at least 85% effective in preventing most strains of whooping cough in Australia." I read that to mean that the vaccine is 85% effective against the strains that it protects against, and that most of the strains in Australia are covered against that are present in Australia. But, it didn't mention whether those strains are the most common in Australia. For example, it may be that we have 10 strains in Australia (I'm making up these numbers), and 8 of them are covered in the vaccine (which protects people 85% of the time for those 8 strains), while the 2 that are not covered may be the most common strains infecting people at the moment.
On the other hand though, it may be exactly how you interpreted the information, and that of all the strains (including the ones not covered in the vaccine), only 15 out of 100 people that are vaccinated will catch whooping cough when exposed.
I guess that's the problem with media... they aren't 100% clear in what they write. When I get a chance I'm going to try to look up the actual journal article and have a read.
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Then that says more about the ineffectiveness of the aP to do its job at all. Our figures are abnormally high. In 2009, a quarter of reported cases to the WHO were from Australia. As at November 2010 there was already 24,000 reported cases. Every other developed country in the world using DTaP is having far greater success with it. Whenever it is questioned here, they pull out those lines. "It was whole cell in 97 to 99 during our big ourbreak" (People born from 1997 onwards got DTaP. DTwP was phased in slowly so as not to give children who had already started the DTwP course a different type) "Its still 85% effective" (based only on laboratory controlled studies of one age group. It was 78% in regular studies of the same age group.) There are others but you must be getting my meaning by now.
There is something wrong, and we deserve not to be treated like fools. It is in fact a disservice to their cause as how are we likely to have any respect for them or believe them about anything if they can't even admit that clearly, something is very wrong.
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Oh! Poor form, RSAHD! Best not to compare apples with donkeys. I only know high functioning spectrum people, but I still would never want to be them, or their mum. Then there's the lesser functioning sufferers. No thanks, again. (for a short glimpse of autism, watch a documentary called Horse Boy. It's a father who takes his austistic son to mongolia looking for help/cure/something. It's amazing)
Personally, and I know this is going to be taken harsher than it is intended, I have seen the diseases we're discussing in communities without appropriate vaccination regimes (ie 3rd world countries), and it's horrific. And it's not all down to hygine. Yes, we have better living conditions, clean water, etc. But that is just part of the equation. I like to travel, and I want to take my son (and future babies) on overseas trips. In all good conscience, I couldn't take a kid to asia without the appropriate vaccinations. Just another reason why I vax.
BellyBelly Member
I appreciate the apology. Yes, it was a silly and naive thing to say. There are a lot of assumptions out there about autism that are simply incorrect.
I have a friend who become wheelchair bound from polio many years ago (ironically she got it from the vaccine) and she has said she'd happily choose to have polio again then have my daughter's condition - that's from the horses mouth of someone who knows what they're really saying. At least my friend has a husband, children, friends and a good paying job. I'll be happy if my daughter can learn to read and type (writing would be a bonus) and can find one good friend who sticks around.
Anyway, even in 1952 at the absolute peak of polio, the rate of infection was 1/2750, this included the spectrum from the small percentage who died (and some of those might have had underlying conditions), those who acquired a disability, to those who recovered and went on to live ordinary lives. Current autism rates are 1/100, none of those kids go on to live ordinary lives. Some might get closer than others, but they will always have deficits they need to work hard at to overcome. Also, kids do die because of their autism too. Last weeks example of the little boy walking in front of the train because he wondered off and had no understanding of safety is an example of that! We had to import a special tracking device for our daughter that she wears when we are out for similar reasons. So, just doing the simple math, am I right in saying you think a 1/100 chance of disability is worth risking in order to mitigate a 1/2750 chance of disability (assuming it's not actually the vaccine causing the spread of disease and that it works 100% of the time)? To me, that doesn't really make a lot of sense...
A lot of my views are influenced by experience. When studies defy the real life evidence they don't mean much to me. I can't read the test tube view and go "yep, that's how it is because the study says so" when my real life experience seems to always fall outside of what the study says. How many times does the exemption come into play before it is not longer an exemption but really the way things are? Science needs to back up reality not create a new one to suit an agenda.
So, from personal experience...
Why the emphasis on enzymes? Because it makes sense plus I've personally seen the difference enzyme treatment can make. The science is backed up by visible real life examples, not theoretical assumptions and statics the look at one thing in isolation that is really effected by multiple influences.
For example (thank God this forum is anonymous or DD may kill me later in life), my daughter was still soiling herself at 5 years old. The simple addition of probiotics and enzymes to my daughter's diet changed that within 2 days - nothing else was changed. Now, if I have to put her on antibiotics, if I don't give her a probiotic/enzyme dose 2 hours afterwards, she will soil herself that afternoon because the antibiotic kills off all the good bacteria and requires enzymes to be processed. It's a very visible and measurable cause and effect. She also used to fit a lot and would stop breathing (which is kinda of necessary in order to live), a GABA supplement (which is an enzyme that stops the brain from over-firing) has stopped the fits. That's just what I can visibly see from the outside, there's obviously a lot more going on inside as the difference in everyday behaviour is quite extreme too. Enzymes play a VERY big part in autism. Vaccination effects enzymes because they have to be processed by the body. That's the whole theoretical point isn't it - for the body to take the biological information in the vaccine, have the immune system process it, so that it knows how to defeat that disease. You can't say it can do that without enzymes being involved, therefore if a child with a predisposition to autism is vaccinated, those vaccines then must have an effect in autism because they effect enzymes.
Why do I think vaccines are ineffective? Not only did my friend get polio from the polio vaccine, my husband got typhoid from the typhoid vaccine - it almost killed him. How many kids do you think are getting rota virus from their vaccination? Heaps. Neither of my kids have had the vaccine, neither of them has ever had gastro, however all my friends who vaccinate their kids for rota are constantly coming down with it or other forms of gastro. What was the point in vaccinating them then!
Additionally,
A few months ago our whole family got whooping cough too. It was a rubber meets the road moment because I have not vaccinated my son who was two months old at the time (the most vulnerable). He, the only unvaccinated, was the only one NOT to catch it. We only found out it was whooping cough a month after we caught it, so it's not like antibiotics or any treatment had anything to do with it.
Yes. I've always said it's like marijuana to those who have a predisposition to schizophrenia. It's a trigger or "ON" button.
Whooping cough vaccine was changed to the synthetic version because of cases of epidemic size outbreaks in places like Denmark in 1997 (which had a 98% vaccination rate which is meant to be the rate to achieve herd immunity) which showed that it was the whole cell vaccine that was giving it to them.
Do you know what would be interesting? Seeing what the levels of vitamin D and C were in those 30,000 people who got whooping cough in 2009. I bet you, it was low.
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Denmark in 97 was just over 100 more people than the year before. They keep talking about epidemic outbreaks in Canada as well, but again we are only dealing with a couple of hundred more people. We do epidemics in the thousands. 5000 to 14000 to 30000 is just insane! Denmark are also now using DTaP and in 2009, had 83 reported cases.
Interestingly, I was one of those people in 2009. While pregnant with Diva. I also suffer from Hyperemesis Gravidarum so chances are, mine were near enough negligible. No one else in the house caught it and the efficacy of all prior vaxes would have been poor due to age, except Angel who was DTwP vaxed, also Hurricane was delay vaxed. We did his just before Diva was born, except MMR. I do vax. Ouch, hope that all makes sense.
I am a delay vaxer and I am choosy about when and what. Getting WC before she was born was good for her though. I gave her the best antibodies that money cannot buy by bfing her exclusively. I would have got the booster after her birth if it were not for that.
The point basically is though, there is something more to it. Based on all other countries in the world, our WC figures are anomalous.
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Yeddi: It must be really hard to talk about autism given how close you are to it, I wouldn't have had this conversation about autism at all with you if I had know, its just not appropriate. I'm glad that the treatment is helping your daughter, it seems pretty obvious from the limited research and practice that it is damage to enzymes causing issues, the manual you linked made that pretty clear. I hope this research can further help her!
I did read the polio stat, but apparently 5-10% of people paralysed by polio die because their lungs are paralysed, not a good outcome. I am surprised to hear about 1/100 people being ASD, of that do you know how many are affected badly like your daughter compared to high-functioning autistic people?
I'm having a read into whooping cough, ill get back to you. But if the vaccine doesn't work, what was the reason for it almost disappearing 25 years ago? Good diet or misdiagnosis?
I'm sure you have information to backup the claim about the outbreak in Denmark...
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