Melb baby dies of whooping cough...

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

I think we are seeing huge changes in human fertility. Realistically, assuming a woman has sex on or around her ovulation date, she should get pregnant. But more and more, it's taking at least 3 months to conceive, and that's just for healthy women with no identifiable problems. Doctors won't even talk to you these days until you've been trying for 12 months, because it's common for it to take that long these days. And what about the high levels of miscarriage and stillbirth?

[Yeddi]

The case of your rabbits is really interesting but if the same was happening in humans why don't we see such a huge changes in human fertility?

Honestly, I don't know how or if it will effect human fertility. This was my experience with the rabbits and it was enough to raise concerns. BUT, how do you know that it hasn't? It's not like the health system correlates rates of assisted conception, miscarriage and stillbirth with vaccination, particularly when the damage could have been done 20 years before a women even tries to get pregnant. They don't even do it when it happens only days apart - There was a lady from our playgroup who miscarried at 18 weeks only 3 days after having the flu shot, but they would never admit that there could have been some association with the vaccine. But we may see more of a correlation in the future as the amount of vaccines increase. The bulk of those who would be affected by these huge increases of vaccines in the schedule would only just be hitting the age where they might be considering getting UTD, those born in the 1990's onwards, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see how much difference it will make.

Mercury was the issue, and I believe it was the mercury in the vaccination that caused the fertility issues within our rabbits. Perhaps it might be a bit left field of me, but I consider that if something can do that, then it raises significant concerns about its safety.

No, we didn't vaccinate any of the surviving 5 babies - they're all fine as far as I know, we sometimes get photos. They went to homes of the special needs children as therapy pets, so weren't bred to see if there was any follow on effect. I was actually tempted to test it, but we had a big enough waiting list as it was without having huge losses, and I didn't want to make the kids wait any longer.

I should point out, that this wasn't just our experience. Other breeders within the club that had vaccinated their rabbits had similar results. Those that didn't vaccinate didn't have these issues - that's who we had to buy our new stock off (for them it was bank). Additionally, the younger the rabbit the more severe the result was to their fertility. Those vaccinated as juniors were the ones that had the higher rates of miscarriage (as it were) and still births.

Trust me, I don't take this subject of fertility/vaccination lightly. I vaccinated my daughter. If she does grow up to overcome many of her setbacks from autism (which on its own I feel the full burden of guilt for), the idea that that decision I made in ignorance and going along with the crowd to vaccinate may cause her the type of grief that comes with infertility and loss is heartbreaking, and something I would rather stick my head in the sand about, but the more I read and see, the more concerned I become. For instance, WTF is HCG doing in up to 20% of rubella and tetanus shots?

[RockinSAHD]

That is left of field and I think proving a decline in fertility would be like proving rising rates of autism.

I thought the live birth rate had improved dramatically in the last 80 years? Are you telling me it's declining rapidly? I would be much more inclined to blame modern obstetrics.

[Yeddi]

Birth rate perhaps, but how many of those are naturally conceived without any assistance? Obstetrics has lots of issues too but that's a whole forum elsewhere.

The thing is, our rate shouldn't just be rising at little bit. In accordance with history, contraception aside, it should be booming. Left field again, but still relevant because this is our pattern as human beings, in 1750 changes in the design of ploughing and harvesting equipment, and the planting of beans instead of letting one third of the land farrow led to a massive increase in food production. This is the cycle I was talking about. The increase in food reduced disease allowing more women to reach the age of fertility. As a result the population exploded from 7.5 million to 75 million over a period of 20 years. That's a tenfold increase in population. We've never had so many women reaching the age of fertility and nor have we had as much access to good food as we do now, and while women do use medical contraception now so they're not having 12 children, they shouldn't be having as much trouble as many, many women are now just conceiving and keeping one. Something else is going on, and it's not obstetrics. Perhaps as we vaccinate the third world to "save them" we might see a decrease in population too that can't be blamed on disease - who knows. I'd still like to know why HCG is also found in some vaccines!

[RockinSAHD]

Of course we would see a decline in births in the third world because a higher live birth ratio would encourage less conception let alone the effects of better health and education!

Birth rates are very complex, women have careers, children are expensive and intensive. Natural birth figures are easy to get as ivf rates are widely published. You can't say that because families no longer have 12 kids we must be being poisoned by vaccines.

Part of the reason for declining birth rates is the massive rise in life expectancy and relative live births brought about by declining disease.

[Yeddi]

Birth rates are very complex, women have careers, children are expensive and intensive. Natural birth figures are easy to get as ivf rates are widely published. You can't say that because families no longer have 12 kids we must be being poisoned by vaccines.

Um, perhaps you should read it again. I didn't say that because people aren't having 12 kids they're being poisoned by vaccines at all - you're falling back into your old habits of twisting people's words to be something other than what they said! I will not enter into irrational and loaded discussion. What I said was that many women are now struggling to have ONE child and that this decline is not the result of using contraception to stop multiple pregnancies because these women want to be pregnant but can't.

[melbel]

I don't know if you can prove a link between vacination and declining fertility.....what I do know through my journey through the IVF world is that fertility rates in general are dropping especially amongst men......... and fertility rates amongst younger couples are declining in a quite marked way so obviously something other than the obvious leaving babies till older argument is at play here......it is definitely food for thought and possibly worth some researcher having a good look at whether there is a link....

[Inertia]

I was reading the health department immunisation handbook today and it was saying that Australian vaccines have either no Thiomersal or only a trace dose for under 5 years. Some people on BellyBelly seem to be very well informed about the schedule and such things, can anyone comment? What about compared to environmental mercury?

Immunise - Appendix 5: Commonly asked questions about vaccination - updated July 2009

Not today. That is because they started phasing it out in 1999, and it is almost all gone now. So it has been over the past 25 years in varying degrees.

Interestingly, they insisted it wasn't hurting anyone, so ...

Vaccines have mercury in them to actually make them safer, there have been cases of some nasty poisonings from contamination of vaccines in the past that make it necessary.

Oh wow, that makes me feel better. If it needs an extremely toxic substance in it to be safer, .... It just doesn't bear thinking about.

The thing of it is, the link between Vax and Autism has neither really been proven or disproven. It will never be happily done so because when anti-vax parties pay for a study and release the results, vax parties pay for studies to say differently. No offence to anyone (I have an ASD DD) but that is neither here nor there.

Vaccines are harming children. It is reported to watchdog agencies here (AME), the US (VAERS), Europe (EudraVigilance), google any country and adverse reactions reporting and you will find some company that takes these reports. You can actually search VAERS. And these are only the reactions they are taking the blame for.

It is all well and good to say "yeah, but it is only like 1 in every 1,000,000 that have a really bad reaction", until that 1 in 1,000,000 is your own child. I am not saying vaccines are pure evil, do away with them, it is a stupid idea. But if it is not 100% safe, then what are they doing about it? Everyone seems to defend it to the hilt, but no - that is not good enough. Keep trying. There is no acceptable collateral damage or it makes the whole exercise pointless.

[RockinSAHD]

Public perception hurts everyone, no matter if the additive was harmful the PR was..

Food additives save lives. If all your food is additive free then more power to you but most of us rely on them, just know that some vegetables have natural TOXIC chemicals in them!

Nothing that enters a human body will be totally safe. I remember when a peanut butter sandwich was safe. There is a lot of work being done to make vaccines safer and they have come a long way so far.

[Inertia]

I remember when a peanut butter sandwich was safe.

Mostly strawmen, but I will bite on this scarecrow.

So, why aren't they safe anymore? What changed? It wasn't the peanuts, that's for sure.

[Yeddi]

Not today. That is because they started phasing it out in 1999, and it is almost all gone now. So it has been over the past 25 years in varying degrees.

Interestingly, they insisted it wasn't hurting anyone, so...

Actually, there's talk of phasing it back in! And it is in the Hep B vaccine which is now being piggy backed with the DTaP vaccine and they are removing the option of not getting it in an all or nothing manner.


Rockin - As for defending food additives - Gah! The number one reason for needing food additives is laziness, 1. By companies who want to mass produce without paying proper attention to hygiene, and 2. By the consumer who can't be bothered looking after themselves and want the easy option. It's not that hard to eat additive free, it just means you have to care about what you stick in your body. Funny thing is, isn't it scientifically proven that additives, and even these toxic substances (I'm guessing you are talking amines and salicylates) DO have major effects on people's health and their behaviour? But apparently vaccines wont, Ha!

[RockinSAHD]

The number one reason for needing food additives is laziness,

Yep, Im lazy, thats me, all that time on the couch! So many parents, lazy, lazy.

BTW peanuts cooked at higher temperatures are more allergenic but taste better. Modern day peanuts are cooked at higher temperatures to improve taste and therefore sales.

[Yeddi]

You really have a talent for hyperbole Rockin! Can you honestly say that a parent who is always giving their kids manufactured and highly processed foods instead of fresh fruit and vegies isn't being a tad lazy? It's just as easy to grab a carrot out of the fridge, or an apple out of the fruit bowl as it is to grab a LCM bar or similar, and cooking a stir fry (even using frozen veg) is just as easy as cooking a sausage roll. While it's okay to do these things some of time, it's not exactly healthy for them to be standard operating procedure. I take it you're not a fan of Jamie Oliver then?

[PollyA]

You really have a talent for hyperbole Rockin! Can you honestly say that a parent who is always giving their kids manufactured and highly processed foods instead of fresh fruit and vegies isn't being a tad lazy? It's just as easy to grab a carrot out of the fridge, or an apple out of the fruit bowl as it is to grab a LCM bar or similar, and cooking a stir fry (even using frozen veg) is just as easy as cooking a sausage roll. While it's okay to do these things some of time, it's not exactly healthy for them to be standard operating procedure. I take it you're not a fan of Jamie Oliver then?

Thats a pretty big leap. Unless you follow a raw food diet there are additives in many foods that are nowhere near LCM's on the spectrum. for instance, from a quick look in my kitchen,the canned tomatoes that I will add to the lasagne sauce I cook tonight (complete with beans and veges)has additives, Bakers flour that my DH makes bread with...additives. Not an LCM bar in sight. I think the assumptions you are making there are pretty extreme.

[RockinSAHD]

Sultanas that DD loves, packed full of sulphur, a nasty nasty toxic chemical. I'm sure Jamie Oliver wouldn't flip out at that.

Despite this tangent, I wouldn't recommend having vaccines on your breakfast Yeddi, just as part of the schedule.

[Yeddi]

Thats a pretty big leap. Unless you follow a raw food diet there are additives in many foods that are nowhere near LCM's on the spectrum. for instance, from a quick look in my kitchen,the canned tomatoes that I will add to the lasagne sauce I cook tonight (complete with beans and veges)has additives, Bakers flour that my DH makes bread with...additives. Not an LCM bar in sight. I think the assumptions you are making there are pretty extreme.

No it's not extreme, and I'm not saying you have to go on a raw food diet - that was your leap. There are options out there that aren't packed with preservatives and additives sitting right next to the ones that do on the same shelf, it's just a matter of reading the labels as you shop. I'm not saying we never have anything with preservatives and additives in it, but we avoid them as much as we possibly can, where we might have one or two things a week where we weren't able to avoid it, but then I do make sure we have natural homemade yogurt afterwards to try and balance the cost on my body from having those things. Again, it comes down to load, and what is natural to the body from thousands of years of reinforcement.

Rockin - yes, they are full of sulphur, and one serve is 25% more than the weekly safe limit according to the WHO. But feel free to feed them to your DD everyday if you wish. Again, you can get ones that are - shock and horror - dried without using a chemical...

As for the last sentence, now you're getting silly, but it's not funny, just ridiculous. And while this is a tangent, it's just an example of your whole attitude on the human body. If you don't care about what preservatives, additives and what not you are putting into your body just as long as you're eating something, of course you're not going to care about what vaccines do just as long as they offer you the hope of being disease free - which is kind of ironic, how many diseases (like heart disease) are related to what you eat...?

Obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, cancer, dental disease, and osteoporosis - are the most common cause of death in the world. Guess what! Funny enough what you eat does matter!

[PumpkinZulu]

I'm nowhere bear informed enough to contribute to the bigger picture of this debate, but I did want to add something IRL declining fertility. I was born in 1990. Yes, that makes me 21 (almost). DF and I have huge, 'unexplained', fertility issues. It took us two years to get pregnant, we started TTC at 18! We are both young, physically healthy, eat well, exercise. We both had no family history of infertility, yet we both discovered we had significant fertility issues, especially my DF, as his were more unexpected and unexplained. We also suffered four early losses. Among my peers, and among the few that are starting their families now, I *have* noticed more fertility issues among them. PCOS, endometriosis, and low motility and count. This is just among a handful of friends aged 20-25. I'm definitely not trying to say that is because of vaccines, but I do agree that fertility is decreasing...not the age which people are starting a family, or the number of children they choose to have, but actual fertility. Just some food for thought.

[Yeddi]

Of course we would see a decline in births in the third world because a higher live birth ratio would encourage less conception let alone the effects of better health and education!

This, to me, is faulty logic. Please explain how vaccinating would lead to lower population in order to have better health and education if it doesn't effect fertility?