Registered User
Hah, well there you go then
Thank-you! I haven't done any vacc research since DD1 was due for hers, I figure I've probably missed a whole bunch and maybe they'd changed the ingredients of some vaccines since I last checked, so yeah, this article and its fancy wording had me a bit stumped for a minute. I feel like a total douche now hahaha
I'm with Maz though... do we really need a scapegoat? Blaming this, that or the other doesn't help a child who is on the spectrum... sure, if a 'cause' can be determined that could prevent children suffering, I'm all for it, but most of the vax arguments I hear sound more like scaremongering to me (and yes, in this case I nearly fell for it! Oops!).
i agree with maz a million and one ppl can come up with a theroy on how autisim came about what i want to know is how i help and make life easier for my lil man
and the only time ill belive something is when its findings are shown to me personaly by the AMA even then ill be a bit sceptical
I know for me it's not about blame at all Mazzy. For me it is about knowledge. It's about knowing if something I might learn will help another child... It is also about for me being cautious about the vaccine and making a conscious decision on vaccintaing my other children - or not.
I could never be sure with all the information, studies and reports I have read that MMR is not a contributor to the rising level of ASD in countries that immunise their children at such a young age.
I could never put on my docs and wave a banner and say definitely one way or another. However, I will always softly but firmly wave the - "let's be cautious banner'...
That is why research is important. I don't need to know to place blame - as my decision to vaccinate was mine. I made it - I am responsible for that outcome that I did make to the best of my knowledge. (actually for me that's not true - I always doubted and I delayed vaccination but caved in as I have very conflicted views due to my medical background).
I am glad there are people to stand up and say: "looky here something is a bit fishy"...
However, I am also aware that sometimes people do draw long bows in an effort to have an understanding of "why" sucky things happen sometimes.
For example my Daughter is being investigated for another disorder - I will research, buy papers, discuss ad infinitum. Because for me it's important to have as much knowledge and understanding as I can. I don't need to blame anyone. I just feel better when I can learn as much as I can.
We all have different ways of approaching these things. For us all it will be different. That's what makes us all so diverse.
Murrysmum - believing all data from the AMA is another subject altogether. And something I would also be very cautious in backing both ways!
I guess the last 5 generations of my fathers side of the family (and that goes back as far as rural Russia around 1870) having autism or autism-like bahviours makes me highly skeptical about most vaccine-related theories. Also i'm fairly involved with an online community for adults with autistic traits and disorders and for about 80% of us the idea that there should be a "cure" for how we are/act/think is pretty hard to take. Especially those with disorders like Aspergers, it's a bit much to be told there should be a way of preventing you being you. I know when DH and my dad read the linked page DH emailed back a long response about how computer modelling is a software field and not a medical science, and my dad said "let's go and cure some emotional people!".
I will admit, it can be a bit of a raw nerve for some.
Please dont think I am horrible now but a child is born on the spectrum...it not something that appears one day. I honestly think many people blame the MMR because it was given at 12 months, at a stage when spectrum traits start rearing their heads when milestones arent achieved.
Seeking knowledge is fine hon. Its just me....I dont like to read all the conflicting - you must do this and you must do that stuff when it comes to my kids. I listen to what I see in my children and what I feel. If I wouldnt have listened to my feelings I would only have 3 children now.
PL - I see the traits in my family members as well, I have a great neice on the spectrum aswell and she wasnt immunised.
Last edited by maz; December 9th, 2009 at 09:13 PM.
And of course ASD has probably been around for a very long time. I have read nothing ever from those that are concerned about vaccinations and their ingredients who say that ASD is caused only by vaccination.
Just that in susceptible humans there appears to be a link.
This could be a miriad of reasons. Personally I believe that the assault on the immune system of one so young, fresh and vulnerable is possibly a large contributor. I say possibly, perhaps, maybe. For nothing is proven.
However, I work a lot on my intuition, my inner voice - that tells me something is amiss. I believe one day we will learn more. But for now I am cautious.
For many though there is a very strong line on the ground Maz of when behaviours begin... For some not so. For me I had a child who was very high maintenance - had her shots that I had delayed. Had a severe reaction & cried for a number of days for hideous headache and febrile reaction... From that day on began banging her head to sleep... Many other traits of course as well. I am not totally convinced either. I think for her it is familial - I think her father is on the spectrum as well... However, I would never stand up and say absolutely no way could it have been the vax. Just as I won't (unless I see solid evidence to support it) say it definitely wasn't.
I think this is a very emotive topic - however, it's our childrens health and I think it needs to be discussed. We all won't agree or see it the same way. I am a notorious fence sitter on this one. However, I have seen enough colloquial evidence, experienced enough "bad reactions" in my job, sensed enough of "somethings not right", to really step back & say: "maybe, just maybe early vax is not such a dandy idea.."
Lucy in the sky with diamonds.
I myself just cannot discount the large amount of parents who truly believe that vacc's changed their children.
I also know about the hereditary links and the fact that some children are born who they are from the very very start.
You cannot discount one or the other - can you?
BellyBelly Member
Wow - I jumped on here with hope in my heart and just got the wind knocked out of me by tactless comments on here. I appreciate that it must get boring hearing people harp on about vaccines and other everyday items contributing to autism but if everyone gave up investigating a theory at the first failure how much knowledge would we be lacking today. Now I haven't read the article yet due to the fact that i am freaking exhausted after dealing with my son with autism all day because its holidays and he is having a meltdown but those of you who have mentioned you have some basis of scientific understanding can't honestly sit there and say that it is impossible for some element in vaccines or food or environment to trigger a cascading reaction that leads to the developement of autistic traits in some with a predisposition to the disorder!!! Will it help my son, no but will it help my daughter or my nephews and neices yet to be born, or my grand kids??? Maybe but if people keep shutting it down then we are never going to figure out what the damn trigger IS!
I agree there are far to many brilliant amazing mums and dad out there who think something is WRONG for it to be ignored comepletly! And I might add to my knowledge there still needs to be done a comprehensive study on the effects of vaccines or other environmental factors on families with a predisposition to autism - perhaps that might have an impact on all of those referenced studies who claim there is no significant difference!
Lucy in the sky with diamonds.
No one is talking about "curing" these traits, but if there can be a way of preventing this occurring, if it doesn't need to be this way, if it stops one more child from being locked into the fear, stress and isolation of autism I'm all for it.
BellyBelly Member
BTW - for those who are reading critically you will note that the link in the first post actually links to a press release not an article.
If you do visit the website (which as are most websites) advertising for their "Think tank" you will find a link to the full announcement (again a press release not a scientific paper) which expands on the ideas. This explanation details more succinctly the reasoning behind the identification of glycine in vaccines. According to the website you can email them for the report of their findings which is freely available to the community.According to Linda Oliver-Perrier, The Center's spokesperson for their Life Sciences group, "The details of the disruptive process are somewhat complex and not conducive for explanation in a press release. We have posted a more detailed explanation on our web site,
and one final note that someone mentioned to me about environmental triggers.
"one day a little girl sat down to eat a peanut butter sandwhich, it made her tongue tingle and she told her mum, who thought she was being silly. Years later after many times of getting a tingly or numb feeling the girl sat down to enjoy a satay and ended up dead due to anaphalytic shock" The body is an amazingly complex machine of inter-relating mechanism that rely on each other to function and at any time the way these part interact can change and the effect of it can be unpredictable.
Paradise Lost - I understand what you are saying and I agree it must be hard when people want to "fix" autistic traits when they are so much about the person, but I have seen my son on good days when he connect with me or the world in some way and he is there in the moment talking and really listening and if there was a magic pill that could bring him into this world and stay there, to take away all the bullying and the frustration and the hurt that comes from being isolated and teased byt a society that doesn't get it I would be there in an instant!
I also noted that too Saram - thankyou for pointing out to those that may not have realised.
Registered User
Thank you for clarifying that - I was wondering the same thing when I saw gelatine and was about to zip an sms to a pharmacist I know and ask.
I personally don't believe in any 'links' between illnesses/occurrences and possible causes when there are too many variables to take into account as to other contributing factors that could have caused it. Especially without any proof from the scientific community at large- but my heart goes out to parents who are searching for a reason their child has a problem and I understand their need for an answer, or the fear of causing a problem by doing something unwittingly to your child which is why some parents don't vaccinate.
I do vaccinate as someone who has seen the results of children with measles encephalitis (so a different kind of fear) and as part of what I perceive as my social responsibility, and I worry more that some of my anti-vax friends children could pass on something when my bub hasn't come of the age to get that shot yet. I do hope they do more research on a potential link however, clearly there's a want for the information - if for nothing else but perhaps they can conclusively prove it isn't a contributing factor - it certainly can't hurt to have some more research either way.
I have had a different experience Sarah - because of what I saw & experienced I chose to delay immunisations in my oldest daughter... I too have seen just what happens (albeit in 3rd world countries) when the "herd" is not immunised. So for me it was a really difficult step to choose not to immunise.
However, I have seen to much to discount that immunisation may play a part in ASD. I have read too much antectdotally, I have worked with Drs who have this concern, I have read enough to be worried. I have witnessed enough to be worried.
It troubles me that it could even be thought that finding an answer is about blame - it's about safety for me.
I have had 3 separate efforts at immunising myself against HEPB. I worked in an area where having cover for HepB was important. I wouldn't sero convert. My body didn't recognise the immunisation. We don't know why, studies have been done... The theory is that because of this perhaps I have natural immunity. It's a theory - but because it's a theory of Professors it's accepted as most likely.
I lost 3 mid trimester babies. I am an "enigma' because I have a condition that mimicks Antiphospholipid syndrome - but the results don't conclude that... However, it's decided by the "experts" that that's what I have and I should take all precautions as if my blood work agreed.
I concluded this after I lost my 2nd baby - but nobody would listen. The "tests" said I didn't have a clotting disorder...
Clotting disorder I have - so much so that a cardiac bloodvessel occluded by a clot almost did me in 72 hours post operatively after c/section. The same condition did so again during a recent hysterectomy.
We have no blood results to back this up - but the "experts" agree I have something very wrong that we have no name for. Science does not have all the answers. But thankfully we have people who work hard, research and champion for an answer.
Do those that think the suspected link by some between vax & ASD really believe that science always has the anwers? I have a scientific mind. I love science. I love that there is a reason for almost everything. Except sometimes the reason is yet to be uncovered.
Like Saram I felt the comments were harsh & they did sting me also...
Today I was at a large shopping centre with Immy. It was bedlam in the pre Christmas shopping spree... There was a lovely young Mama with her 2 little boys. One was having a melt down. He was banging his head on the floor - the Mamam was crying. I offered my help - & I went and got her a drink of cold juice... She was exhausted. Her little boy was autistic & of course the shopping centre is a terrible place for autistic children - she had no help or support so she just had to take him. In time he calmed & the window opened where he felt peaceful... I left them to it.
It's a tough life for Mamas & Dads of ASD kids. It's tough for them to - the turmoil the over stimulation.
I wish I had the answer - and clearly I don't. However, do you think we should just accept it as one of those things? Or perhaps search for whys & possible prevention?
I hope for the latter - & won't it be wonderful if it's not vaccination. Won't it be wonderful if it is not from the processed lactose in milk or the complex protein in gluten... Won't it be wonderful if it is somthing much more simple...
Ive had 2 ladies in my head today and yes you were one of them
the above have stuck and keep's playing like a record. Please dont think me rude but im going to put a little spin on it and reflect part of our path
For me I had a child who was very high maintenance
oH yeah baby....I hear you there loud and clear. I cant even start discribing it cause Id be here all night
had her shots that I had delayed
yep...W were late by 6months due to his temprement and screaming all the time
Had a severe reaction & cried for a number of days for hideous headache
yep...we had a temp of 39.5 for day's, a rash over his body and screamed worse then before
From that day on began banging her head to sleep
I would be interested to know what age your DD was hon. Im thinking that maybe it was just a coinsidence (sp sorry) that she started this behaviour when she got the needles. Was there bad vibes in the house at the time? Lots of physical traits of pain start at around the age of 2 as this is the age that most normal children are communicating with us. a child on the spectrum oftne lashes out when that communication is blocked.
Sorry just wondering and probably over annalysing
She was talking the tail off a donkey & able to communicate really well... When she was treated for her reaction - it was very frightening. For me the worst had happened.
She was over 2 as I had them done for her to start kindy Maz.
Her whole persona changed - what had been high maintenance went slowly and surely to hellish.
I actually couldn't work at one point as she would bang her head,hurt herself, cry and scream & I would be phoned at work to come and get her.
I have had 5 kids & none of them changed their personalities overnight like this...
Registered User
The research looking for a link between autism and vaccination has already been done, (and is probably still being done). Huge studies, looking at, for example, all 500,000+ children born in Denmark between 1991 and 1998, have not found any such link. Stopping giving MMR vaccines in Japan has not decreased the rate of increase of autism there. And so on: there have been many studies made of this stuff. If there were a link, no matter how obscure or how weird the actual causality was, these studies would pick it up.
I know it's hard to understand, or hard to believe, when you have a child who reacted badly to a vaccine and was then diagnosed with autism. But life is full of weird coincidences that are just that: coincidence. That's why we use large scale studies, to figure out the coincidences from the things that are actually causal and not coincidence at all.
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