Why not vaccinate?

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

TBH, I only recently learned that they do, when I started looking into the ingredients in some of the vaccines. Obviously it doesn't say in the Bible to or not vaccinate, so my decision is based on my own research, both into the Bible and into scientific matters.

Having said that, I was already uncomfortable with the idea of vaccinations as per the government schedule BEFORE I learned about some of the ingredients, such as animal placenta, some being cultured in animal blood etc - finding that out was pretty much the clincher. Again, this is a conscience matter for those following my beliefs - my parents got myself and all my sisters fully vaccinated, as was their right.

For myself, this also means that I will not accept certain anti-venoms and the tetanus shot. This is because they are cultured in animal blood, and therefore, given the Bible's stance on blood, I feel they are unacceptable for me.

No offence taken Winter, definitely a relevant question, and one I am happy to answer

[Winter]

Thanks for answering Sunny!

[~Serenity~]

ok so i have finally just finished reading all 8 pages and there i must admit that i am thinking i would like not to vaccinate however i probably will due to the fact im lazy and i dont have enough time or energy to put in the effort to find other ways to build their immune system....

sunflowa just wondering if u could pm me on what the bible says on the blood stuff im very curious on that....


i do see both sides of this argument im abit confused on the fact that if vaccinated ppl are still getting the illness theyre vaccinated from doesnt that mean that it didnt really work....but also im thinking that if your vaccinated you may get a lesser effect than someone who isnt vaccinated

Not sure what the WHO is but did we find out if those stats were for just australia or the whole world because if they wre for the whole world i understand how it may be less relevant to us as we have a very small population in comparison to most places.....



my views on having read this is that i will go and talk to my GP who is my regular and i think is very knowledgable about delaying her next needles because i do find it alil concerning that they do give doses for the age not the weight esp as i have had 3 premmies and my current was only 3.3kg at 10 weeks old so to have her getting the same doses as a baby that could be double that weight i find very obsurd.....

Lulu i must admit i am one of the ppl who lets the kids out with a runny nose if its clear and i do often go out with a cough not the cough up a lung but i seem to get an itchy throat very easily so often have a cough and not sick...but i was vaccinated as a child and i have always gotten sick easily with colds and flus and still got chicken pox

Lulu just wondering if theres a known think like there was at the daycare do you take ur kids out asap for the time period or wait til they show symptoms just wondering from when someone said but did you take them out for the 2 days prior to the symptoms cos i thought u said you took them out asap


also wondering how if pl dont vaccinate their kids but build their immune systom with other methods how that effect the community...doesnt having a good immune system so not getting the illness work inthe same way as the vaccines so theres less risk of getting the illness

lastly i hope this is actually helping the original poster and whoever else may be curios....i will deff be seeking further info thanks to this thread

[suse]

I agree with Lulu and Melbel 500% that children are far more in danger from parents who insist on taking their children to public places when they are clearly sick than they are from children who's parents have made the informed, reasoned choice to vaccinate homeopathically. Honestly, I am offended by the implication that I have not researched and thought out my decision to not vaccinate my future children as per government guidelines.

Sunflowa - do you (or does anyone who has utilised homeopathic vaccination) know of what research has been done on their efficacy? I found that when I was researching the decision to vaccinate I was not able to find any clinical research on the immunological effectiveness of homeopathy (as in, the take up rate of the vaccine compared to conventional vaccines).

I would be interested to see any available research .

On the subject of quarantining - this should be one of the tools we use to help control infection, and I believe that given the 'if you can stand, you can work' attitude of many employers, it should be mandated that (paid) leave be taken for the duration of an infectious disease. I also believe that there should be penalties for those who go to public places unnecessarily or do not take proper precautions when in public whilst infectious.

But given that the infectious stage of many diseases starts before symptoms, I don't think that quarantine alone can replace vaccination.

[Lolli]

SG hun, I think everyone posting in this thread has made their informed desicion, and we'll all put a lot of thought into it. Making an informed desicion doesn't always mean the road less travelled. Thankyou for postin the info about the bible and blood products- honestly, that had nver occured to me as a reason for not vaccinating, but I completeley see your point.

Vaccinations are definitley not the be all and end all. They don't guarentee total immunity. They do, in most cases, reduce the risk of catching the disease and limit the severity of it, because the body's immune system has already been exposed to the disease, and has (in theory) built up it's own immunity. Doesn't guarentee anything- my brother was (I think) vaccinated against varicella (chicken pox) and still manged to catch it three times

Lulu, I get your point about normal childhood illnesses, espcially in relation to the measles and chicken pox. that was one point that made me think twice about vaccinating. But I think diseases like polio also need to be taken into consideration- they can be much nastier than measles or CP. There have been next to no cases of polio in Australia in thelast 40 years (in faqct, from memory, the only cases have been where people who are immuno suppressed have come into contact with people who have recently been vaccinated). But that is because of vaccinating, not in spite of it.

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

Sunflowa - do you (or does anyone who has utilised homeopathic vaccination) know of what research has been done on their efficacy? I found that when I was researching the decision to vaccinate I was not able to find any clinical research on the immunological effectiveness of homeopathy (as in, the take up rate of the vaccine compared to conventional vaccines).

I would be interested to see any available research .

Oops, what I meant to say was 'vaccinate homeopathically or not at all.' TBH, I haven't actually tried to research homeopathic vaccinating yet, I'm still researching common vaccines!

SG hun, I think everyone posting in this thread has made their informed desicion, and we'll all put a lot of thought into it. Making an informed desicion doesn't always mean the road less travelled. Thankyou for postin the info about the bible and blood products- honestly, that had nver occured to me as a reason for not vaccinating, but I completeley see your point.

I think I've come across the wrong way, and it serves me right for posting when I was so tired! I didn't mean to imply that parents who DO vaccinate haven't researched their own choice - I was just saying that just because one parents does the research and is comfortable with it, an another parents does the research and is NOT comfortable with it, doesn't mean that one of them is wrong or stupid. I'm kinda getting the feeling in this thread that its become/becoming a 'right/wrong' mentality, when it should just be a discussion of differing ideas, with respect to the decisions each of us have made ITMS

Flowers and love for all, please don't flame me

[Lolli]

Flowers and love for all, please don't flame me

Never darling, hope what I posted didn't sound nasty beacuse it totally wasn't meant to be

[Epacris]

I can't really reconcile how someone can be anti-vaccinations in this country, but support mass vaccinations in third world countries. Apparently - given that there appears to be an anecdotal link - giving autism to kids in the third world is just fine as long as it's not in our back yard. Never mind that in those countries, they wouldn't have even a sniff of the resources to cope with & manage autism like this country does. Goose Vs Gander?

Yes, I was pondering that too.

But given that the infectious stage of many diseases starts before symptoms, I don't think that quarantine alone can replace vaccination.

I totally agree, quarantining will reduce the risk of a disease spreading, but there is still risk because the person infected is contagious before symptoms are present.

I was at a playgroup meeting recently and a mum told me how her little one had rubella recently - he was unvaxed. She was saying it was mild etc. BUT all I could think about was the pregnant women she might have been in contact with before it was diagnosed...9 in 10 babies exposed to the virus in the first 10 weeks have severe congenital abnormalities.

As has been said before, sometimes vaccination is not about protecting the person that's being vaccinated but other people in our society that can't be safely vaccinated, like unborn and newborn children and immuno-suppressed people. Back to the importance of maintaining herd immunity again.

[Lolli]

Just on the rubella- my ds contracted that at about 7 months old, probably from me, and I probably got it from the hospital. MMR is not offered until 12 months, so he caught it despite me being a 'vaxxer'. And it did annoy me that I didn't have the option of not giving him the rubella vaccination after he had already had the infection (so the vax is null and void) because MMR is an 'all ornothing' in Aus, and not available seperate unless ordered from overseas.

Had my ds had been in the incubation stages of the rubella virus, and the vaxxed against it anyway, the consequences could have been dire. But that is a risk we all choose to take if we choose to vaccinate.

[Lulu]

Winter - I don't mind if they catch certain things, especially for the fact the severity of the effects in adulthood. But like I said if they catch something it stops with me. What rule am I an exception to though? Do you think all non vaccers don't care about prevention and spreading of disease? I know far more vaccers that think their children are invincible because they consider them "immunised".

Entreat, I daresay the person who brought the mumps to playgroup should have quarantined themselves a little better after returning from os. That's more of a problem than me not vaccing isn't it?

Also the kids were not in daycare. That's a decision I made for them whilst they were younger, but more more the fact other parents send their children whilst sick with whatever..not just CP etc.

I took them to a weekly playgroup. Whilst they were young I minimised exposure. I spoke to the health dept whilst they were sick AND after. They track certain diseases - there were no further reports of mumps being spread from MY END. If I just thought - oh it's a runny nose lets go to the shop it might have been a different story, but I don't do that. Even if it's just a running nose.
When I was in hospital many moons ago, the lady in the bed opposite me nearly missed a heart transplant because some idiot relative gave her a cold when she visited in the hospital.
People spread disease ALL THE TIME but because I don't vacc I appear to carry the load for everyone.

Polio - no there haven't been any cases in Aus for a long time. I re-researched this a year or so ago...and came across a statement by the very maker/discoverer saying he believed the vacc did more harm than good.

It really feels that because I don't vacc you guys (you know who you are ) seem to think I am stupid and taking nothing into consideration. This is not an "up yours" to the establishment, I don't wear foil hats (cept on Tuesdays). Clearly I have given this a great deal of thought and it's something I review from time to time but AGAIN - the likelihood of death from these illnesses is very low.

Foil hats - in my research over the years a have come across way too much evidence of pharma companies and their crappy methods. The mistakes..and also the fact heaps of the vaccs are grown on primate kidneys blleeuuugh! That is wrong on so many levels - but also the cause of the spread of many diseases in the early days, record levels of leukemia HIV etc. Have companies like Merck all of a sudden grown a conscience or morals?
How can you have faith in that?

It's not just one reason, but many that I choose not to vacc. It's not an easy decision to make and doesn't always sit well when it comes to eradicating awful disease - but I'm not spreading anything and that's the best I can do for everyone.

[Cassius2]

herd immunity seems to be a moot point here in Australia really. With vaccination rates above 90% (latest WHO data from 2008) for pretty much all vaccinations (except interestingly enough for the second dose of measles vaccine - MCV2 - maybe we get blase when our kids are no longer babies lol!) we've pretty much achieved it. Latest outbreaks of whooping cough and measles etc on a global scale have been found to be caused mostly by those that missed their second immunisation dose. I think it can get hairy when we refer to these as 'booster' shots. ppl may have the impression that if they vax'd their kids as babies then it's ok enough and any second shot is just 'boosting' and double checking. but IMHO it is the 'booster' shots that should be getting the focus. these are the vaccinations that are in ya for the long run. anything before is there really to just protect your child (part of the UNICEF and WHO campaign to reduce infant deaths under the age of 5). if we really want to protect the community as a whole, parents, older siblings etc need to make sure that they are protected and immunised. And more often than they are the ones that are not.

And i'd also like to make the point that even if you are vaccinated care still needs to be taken. for example, Rubella is a sneaky little thing with my body and i just dont have immunity to it. ever. didnt even realise this was the case until routine blood tests revealed my dirty little secret! and in fact, i think this makes me a little more 'dangerous'...i really thought i had immunity to it and would not pose any risk to anybody. so have never thought to look out for signs or symptoms...

[~Saram~]

I don't wear foil hats (cept on Tuesdays).

you crack me up.

I know I am harping on something that was brought up a while ago but does anyone know where the whole banana and formaldahyde thing came from? The only links I can find at sprouted in discussions such as this one - where did it originally come from? Or sites (including state and federal public health sites) discussing the reasons to avoid formaldahyde in commerical applications??? - thanks so much just interested

[Inanna]

I don't know Saram. I do know the sprays used on bananas to control pests have formaldehyde and so therefore commercial bananans have a higher concentration.
However fruit being a living food will have a content all on its own as well...

[Dedicated Doula Gillian]

Can i throw a spanner in the works here...
Now i have NO facts on what I'm about to say but it's something that has been bugging me...
We all know about the swineflu and birdflu issues which have been in the news recently and over the years...
Could we be opening ourselves up to animal diseases because we are now injecting ourselves with vacines that have been processed using animal proteins/parts...

Is our DNA/RNA being damaged/mutating/splicing and joining with the DNA/RNA of animals used in the vaccines and hence putting us at risk to these "new" viruses from animals?

Just food for thought?

[Trillian]

OK, for anyone interested I found this link here Fruit Chart | Nutrient chart | Vitamins and minerals in common fruits and I think the reference for the formaldehyde in bananas came from the very first google link here Autism Blog - Green This Left Brain/Right Brain but most of that would come from contamination from agricultural chemcials, thus the formaldehyde can be avoided by eating organic fruit. So I think the person who posted that gem in the first place maybe should have done a bit of research on it first instead of posting the first available link.

[Epacris]

Cassius2, I don't think we should be taking herd immunity for granted here in Australia. In the Northern Rivers region of NSW vaccination rates are down to around 80%.

[Lulu]

Could we be opening ourselves up to animal diseases because we are now injecting ourselves with vacines that have been processed using animal proteins/parts...

Already have been, it's been going on for years. As far as I know it's how all vaccs were grown.

[Inanna]

I find it hard to keep track of what everyone is saying and juggling my 5 kids - so pardon me if this sounds disjointed!

Entreat - I don't condone nor I am sure does anyone that children in third world countries could develop autisim from the vaccines. I don't understand how that connection is made.

I have said it ad infinitum. I can see the benefits of having the herd vaccinated weather that is in Australia or in Tanzania. The pros are that there is less prevalence of disease. I don't think that can be disputed and I certainly have not done so.
I understand this well & as such I have been a fence sitter - but after my experience with Imogen I got off the fence and put my foot firmly in no. All my reasons I have said so you all understand me I am sure.

It is not as simplistic as you don't immunise so therefore you don't care about other peoples children. Or you don't immunise and therefore you don't care about children in third world countries developing autisim. I care deeply about all children and this rather callous and careless parallel is disturbing to me.

I ask you all would you immunise if you had experienced what I and others have? Would you if you noticed marked differences, if you observed severe reactions - would you continue to immunise? Maybe you would. For me I chose no and I chose to research. Threr are some very strident posters in here that are saying there is no proven link so therefore it's safe. I say there are too many many reports from parents, and professionals to discount it. this coupled with my own experience I say no. Someone mentioned talking to a GP. Interestingly it's been my experience that GP's just give you the: vaccinate it's the only way" spiel. However the paeds are quite different. No paed after learning of DD14 diagnosis pushed imunisation on me. They all said: "yes, I would be careful too"... "keep her away from all the illness that people send their kids out the door with - and maybe look at immunisation when she is much older'... Because I guess the paeds see so many that have reactions and ASD. I have spoken at length with about 5 paeds and all of them supported my decision. Just an interesting difference between the GP's who all have said it is not a good deciison not to vax...

As for my unimmunised children putting at risk your immunised ones... That's not my experience. Someone mentioned Lulu's stance at quarantining her children as being unusual. See again that's not my experience. I certainly do so as well. So do all - and that's a big statement but I have gone through the families I know personally who do not immunise (actually almost all!) and they quarantine their kids.
I made a conscious decision not to put my children in child care (for many reasons not just because of their status) - so they do not have to be quarantined from that. Our school has only about 20% immunisation rate & has had the lowest reports of childhood illness of any school in the area!

People who don't immunise are consciously choosing this as it is a belief that it is better for their childs body/spirit... People who don't immunise research out alternatives, work hard at boosting thier childs constitution, work hard at providing foods to fight illness etc etc.
Of course so do parents who don't immunise - I just need to highlight that we don't not immunise & then let them run free on a diet of nutra grain!
Because they are not immunised we are careful for them not to come into contact with illness - we are aware of how illnesses spread (due to the exhaustive study on this!) etc etc.

I can see that vaccination programs have halted the spread of disease worldwide. These children have been spared from death from childhood illness... Many have survived to then die of thirst, famine and war... That however is a whole other thread.

Like Gillian I was shocked at how angry the thread became late last night. Pitting parent against parent in a bid to be "right"... To me we are, none of us, right. We are (many of us) conflicted.