Why not vaccinate?

[~MummaBear~]

Woah!!! nice post Schmickers ROFL
thanks everyone for the info
i do have one more question!!
the risk of autisum is only if they are immunised at a young age?? is that right? so in that sence a delayed schedule would stop the risk of vacinations causeing Autisum?
Wow i really have alot to learn before i have another baby/...

Is there anyone out there that has vaccinates their older children and then not the younger ones? Do you feel guilty that you made a more informed decision in regards to one or the other??

[Pretty Butterfly]

My eldest 4 are fully vac, my 5th has had them up to 12 months, and #6 has had none.

I wish I did know then what I know now....

They have all had CP now ( my older ones repeatedly.. ) so my youngest 2 will not be getting that one later. I will be selectively vacing later on, still undecided on which though. Ruebella at 16ish for example...

Funnily enough we have had the vomiting bug here BAD.... and my youngest 2 had the most mildest doses, which is strange as they are at the most at risk from getting a bad dose being young...

My youngest 2 didn't spread CP to anyone that I know of, my older ones spread it around school...... as their dose was so so mild, I didn't know that they had it AGAIN....so herd immunity didn't work here at all, in fact, just the opposite...
and I imagine that it happens more than vac'd folks would like....
my VAC'D child gave it to my unvac'd, and then spread it even further...

[suse]

the risk of autisum is only if they are immunised at a young age?? is that right? so in that sence a delayed schedule would stop the risk of vacinations causeing Autisum?

Because the link between vaccinations and autism is only suspected and not yet established, I don't think it is possible for that question to be answered with any authority. Yet.

The thing is, we don't know for sure that vaccinations contribute to the onset of autism. We don't know for sure that they don't either. The initial research suggesting a link between the MMR virus and autism has been comprehensively discredited. However, enough anecdotal evidence exists to warrant ongoing research.

The theory that an immature immune system is more likely to be traumatised by the immunisation schedule, and thus create the conditions to trigger autism is why it is suggested that delaying vaccinations may prevent this, yet there are reports of older children and teenagers displaying a rapid onset of symptoms immediately following MMR vaccinations.

The simple fact is that more research is needed before these questions can be answered with certainty.

Schmick, to respond to one of your points about the herd immunity principle being flawed - I don't disagree that true herd immunity for many diseases is unlikely, but it provides a better chance of the majority of the population avoiding an illness than does quarantining methods alone. That the contagious stage of so many viral diseases occurs before symptoms appear means that the quarantine method alone is equally fundamentally flawed. I don't really think that any one method can ever be entirely successful, and it cannot be disputed that regardless of the benefits of vaccination there are many legitimate concerns about its application.

[Fleur]

Is there anyone out there that has vaccinates their older children and then not the younger ones? Do you feel guilty that you made a more informed decision in regards to one or the other??

Well, kind of. I don't feel guilty because I did what I thought best at the time, KWIM? But I wish I had known more then. After reading this thread, I am reconsidering a few things.
All my older children are vacced, and DD2 is up-to -date at 4 mths. We have no family history of autism, or any other indications, and she is in FDC so I think we will continue with most of her vaccs.

But I think not the CP vax - all my older kids had CP, the youngest at 4mths. If she hasn't had it by the time she reaches adulthood, she can have the vax then. And we might put MMR in that basket too, being that most of the complications from those diseases seem to occur in adulthood.
Haven't dicussed it with DH yet - so he is gonna get educated also
After reading this thread I am of much the same opinion as Schmickers - I don't have a problem with vaccinating per se, but it seems like the schedule is a bit gung-ho. And I fully & totally understand why some parents choose not to, in particular those with a family history or other indicators of ASD.

Schmick, to respond to one of your points about the herd immunity principle being flawed - I don't disagree that true herd immunity for many diseases is unlikely, but it provides a better chance of the majority of the population avoiding an illness than does quarantining methods alone. That the contagious stage of so many viral diseases occurs before symptoms appear means that the quarantine method alone is equally fundamentally flawed.

I guess the aim is to 'overlap' both herd immunity and quarantine? Ideally this would give the most protection.

As to quarantine - I have encountered many people who were careless WRT taking their sick kids out in public - but I didn't think it had anything to do with if they were vaccers or not? I never thought about it, I just thought they were rude / thoughtless - I mean you can't vax against the common cold, and I don't really want that either, thanks very much! So I think maybe this is less to do with vaccers/ non-vaccers, and more to do with those who care considerate/ vs those who are not. ITMS.

[Kamarine]

Rates include all vaccinations included in the immunisation schedule. Some adult boosters (like the pertussis booster) are recommended, but aren't on the schedule. So these would not be included in the statistics.

Thank you Schmickers. Nice post.

[suse]

I guess the aim is to 'overlap' both herd immunity and quarantine? Ideally this would give the most protection.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Vaccination alone is not the answer, as some people can't and shouldn't be vaccinated or the vaccine is not effective, but quarantine alone is not an effective strategy either.

Like I said in a previous post it's understandable why vaccination is a preferred option from a community and health management perspective (if not from an individual one) - it is more proactive to prevent than to react to an outbreak, but until we know the full implication of certain vaccines like Gardasil it's impossible to establish whether the cost of the disease is greater than the cost of the vaccine (and I am not just speaking of economic costs). It worries me that in the haste to prevent a serious illness, vaccines are now rushed onto the market without being properly clinically trialled.

[Arcadia]

Thanks for the post schmickers:

So, do the needs of the "society" outweigh the needs of the individual child? When do the rights of the "society" become more important than the right of the parents to choose on behalf of their child?

Interesting question. Most of us that are pro-vax though see vaccination as both benefitial to society and to our child, not that one outweighs the other. So, in a way, this is only a question that suits anti-vaxers. It seems that many choose to ignore the herd immunity argument in favour of an individuated approach, which means, perhaps they do see the needs of their child outweighing society's needs. This is fine...I am not advocating compulsory vaccination, just putting the reasons out there why I vaccinate.

As for rubella and delayed vax until later (say 16 or so). The idea is to minimise childhood illness. Yes the little boy's case was mild, but 1 in 6,000 children develop swelling of the brain. It would also benefit all pregnant women if rubella was a disease largely reduced in our society through vaccination. Not all pregnant women in Australia received the vax (think of migrants) and pregnant women and children are often socialising together.

If you're pro-vax, then I cannot see the logic in delaying. I understand the argument about chemicals 'assualting' a newborn, about the 'onslaught' to a tiny body. As far as I can see, the whole world is an onslaught to a newborn, and as a pro-vax I choose to think I am protecting my baby in the best way I can (feel free to disagree )

I think, we can argue until we are blue in the face. Perhaps the government should put together a more coherent fact based website so parents can actually make an informed choice. One where the research is done by people who understand the literature, and to prevent the whole debate decaying into anecdote and hearsay.

[Fleur]

I think, we can argue until we are blue in the face. Perhaps the government should put together a more coherent fact based website so parents can actually make an informed choice. One where the research is done by people who understand the literature, and to prevent the whole debate decaying into anecdote and hearsay.

An excellent, excellent idea!

[~mamaspice~]

Schmickers, I know I'm a little late, but thanykou for your comprehensive post. It was very interresting.

Just wanted to mention I just heard a news story on the radio that there are currently twin baby boys in Gold Coast Hospital with Whooping Cough. They caught it from their father. Father has undertandably stated that he will not be able to live with himself if anything happens to either of the boys. Very sad I hope they pull through.

[Just Me]

As far as I can see, the whole world is an onslaught to a newborn, and as a pro-vax I choose to think I am protecting my baby in the best way I can.

Excellent point

And also on your point of rubella immunisations in childhood - I think that there are some pg women who no matter how many injections they have do not have immunity to rubella and so vaccination could limit chances of exposing women in that position to rubella for those of us whom the vaccinations work on IYKWIM.

I have really enjoyed reading this discussion - it is interesting to know what other people think and why they think what they do. In a way I think we are all aiming for the same thing - healthy, well kids - we just all believe different things about how we achieve that. I don't think there is any one 'right' answer and as lots of people have said before, it is whatever you feel is best for your family. After all, the decisions we make have consequences (both vaxing and non-vaxing) and we have to live with the consequences of our choices, which for some will be minimal and for others life changing. Not an easy choice really.