Clare - then they should be midwives
Yes, I would choose this option
No, I prefer being in the hospital system
I am undecided
♥ BellyBelly's Creator ♥
Clare - then they should be midwives
Kelly xx
Creator of BellyBelly.com.au, doula, writer and mother of three amazing children
Registered User
too true Kel - if those with a passion for helping a woman birth stepped away from the obstetric model of care, and more towards the midwifery model, the birthing mother would be better served. if the emphasis of only paying a respectable income to those who have studied for years was taken away, and given more to those with experience, people with a genuine passion would be more prepared to move into that field. academic learning and a big pay packet don't make you qualified to help in birthing
Clare - then they should be midwives
how many doctors, of MANY specialties (GP's included), are all about the academics, and are only doctors because they got good grades in school, not because they have a genuine passion for helping PEOPLE. i think OB's have their place in some births, no doubt about it. and for some people, the obstetric model of care is what they need - but the argument here is that we SHOULD have a choice, and for so many people, that just isn't an option - there are not enough birthing centres by far which leaves you with the option of obstetric led care in a hospital environment (and even if it's mostly midwife care, ultimately, they don't have any power - they answer to an OB), or homebirth, which for many, is just not an option
Registered User
OH BOY, Not very many!! I've been surrounded by specialists and surgeons all my life. Including one of Australia's leading specialists in HIV research and others who worked alongside Fred Hollows. If it was school grades that drove these people they'd be financial consultants or lawyers.how many doctors, of MANY specialties (GP's included), are all about the academics, and are only doctors because they got good grades in school, not because they have a genuine passion for helping PEOPLE.
Are you just scare mongering for the hell of it, or do you enjoy making the experience of pregnancy and the prospect of going to hospital even more stressful than it needs to be? You're actively working against creating the calm birthing experience that you advocate (I'm not just referring to the person I quoted, I've moved on to a broader audience).
Perhaps all these women having negative experiences would have a much better time if they could relax. White-coat syndrome is a real syndrome and you people who keep yapping about how awful doctors are really aren't helping, you're creating a negative perspective on something that needn't be so bad.
Yes this is my first pregnancy, but I'm not worried because I trust my obstetrician and I also know how to communicate with doctors instead of fearing them unjustly.
♥ BellyBelly's Creator ♥
This is a great discussion... if you don't like what you hear you don't have to participate. This is the joy of the internet, we can exchange experiences and learn. I haven't heard anyone call doctors crap or useless etc. Everyone has clearly said they have a place so I see no reason to change the direction of the conversation. Glad you are happy with your care - just as women should be allowed to have obstetric care and be happy with it, so should women who want midwifery care. See you have what you want so why should it matter? Clearly 74% of women in this poll want access to midwifery led care and I can tell you, only 3% of Victorian women give birth in a birth centre, 0.4% born before arrival, 0.3% planned homebirths and the rest hospital. HUGE difference based on this poll. Thats over 96% in hospital, obstetric based care. When 74% are saying we want something else. Not such a big deal when its not what you want isnt it? What if we took away obstetric care? Ooooh wouldnt there be a huge uproar then!
Women wanting midwifery care should be angry! They dont get THEIR choice.
Kelly xx
I just remembered why I don't participate in these forums.
Call me naive but I think having dissenting opinions and voicing them actually adds to the discussion.
If I want to hang out in a militant forum where opposing viewpoints aren't welcome then I can go hang out at MDC.
Life Subscriber
Kuraiza, I totally understand where you are coming from. When I was pg with my first, I had the same opinion. Nothing but an ob for me - that's where you get the best care, right? Nothing like knowing the person who will be delivering your baby, right? I get how you feel hun, I truly do. And you know what, I had a truly great ob too, one of the very best I would say! And I would still say that.
So what changed my mind about mw vs ob? My first birth actually. DS1 decided to arrive on a Friday night/Sat morning when my ob wasn't on call. The ob who was on call is also a pretty good ob, but he had already had a cs and a vb before me, and another woman in labour. The poor guy was probably exhausted and wanting to catch every little bit of sleep he could over the weekend. So, I copped the cascade of interventions.
First my waters were broken. This caused sudden, intense contractions (and I was having a back labour too for some reason). And because these pains hit while I was lying on my back being monitored, I wasn't dealing with it well. The anaestitist was there having just done a cs, and was about to leave, so I was pressured into an epidural with the "it's now or never" line and being told I would be in that much pain for at least 8 more hours (if they had read my file they would have known that my ob was expecting me to have a quick labour like my mum, and in fact I did have quick labours so the 8 hours was rubbish). So I gave in to pressure and had the epidural. I warned them I had low bp and sure enough that made it worse. Labour slowed, baby went into distress and I couldn't even raise my head without feeling like I was going to pass out. So flat on my back I pushed without feeling. I ended up needing forceps, an episiotomy, therefore stitches. I had a lot of pain afterwards from that and also other problems which I won't go into here.
Having since had a 3 hour labour in a conduicive and comfortable position, without an epidural, I know now what labour can, and should be like. And how insidious the cascade of interventions is. And this is with an ob who is definitely one of the better ones!!
Kuraiza, I truly hope that you have a better experience than me.
Registered User
I had a similar experience BUT it was midwives instead of my OB. I was a first timer, they didnt listen to me telling them I needed to push because "first labours take a LONG time" so I asked for an epi as I was exhausted and scared I would crash out and end up with a c/s. It was only the anaesthesist telling them to listen to me and check dialation that showed them I was ready to push. Obviously I did not have the epi but what would have happened if I had of because the anaesthesist didnt care about anything but getting $$$ out of me for pain relief? So it goes both ways really. I think what situations like this really show is that medical birthing professionals (Midwives & OBs) have gotten so used to women being blind in birthing choices and information that when they come across someone who is informed, they just dont "hear" it so to speak.
I also just want to say that I have never seen Kelly or any of the mods berate or belittle a person for choosing OB care and intervention. BB and a majority of women using it are all about INFORMED CHOICES not bullying people into having natural births.
BellyBelly Life Subscriber
Sass,
I have just checked the records, and no posts have been edited or moderated from this thread. We have also not thus far had to post any warnings to the thread. Discussion has been civilised, though passionate at times. Your only contribution to the thread was to discuss your own experience, and your more recent post I quoted above.
I think you perhaps miss BellyBelly's point? Saying "if you don't like what you hear, don't participate" does not equate to "If you don't agree with what you hear, don't participate". We have had men and women from all walks and all viewpoints post to this thread to voice their opinions, and it has sparked some interesting, and I think very valuable debate. As yet, I am not aware of anyone who has been unfairly criticised or excluded from this thread. Any concerns that the Mod team have been made aware of have been dealt with in the best possible way - through intelligent debate. It is certainly true that the prevailing viewpoint is that midwifery-led birthing services are a great option and that the overwhelming majority of voters in the poll, and respondents to the thread, would choose that option. That does not mean that people who would not choose that option should leave the thread; on tbhe contrary, that is exactly what this thread is for, examining both sides of the argument and testing whether the claims of Dr. Mourik hold true when applies to a community of well educated, well informed men and women. The entire crux of this thread, indeed, illustrates that this is not the case.
Sass, if you have any specific concerns, I encourage you to contact myself (schmickers@bellybelly.com.au) or any of the other moderators. Often the quickest way to do so is to use the "Report Thread" button at the top of the post that concerns you. But making spurious claims that this forum is militant and oppresses dissenting opinions does not add to the discussion. Whether your viewpoint agrees or disagrees with the majority view, you are welcome to participate here.
Registered User
i think Kel has been seriously taken out of context with her comment :
it was in response to someone telling people to stop scare mongering as they're a first time mom-to-be, telling people that simply relaxing will make their negative experiences not seem so bad:This is a great discussion... if you don't like what you hear you don't have to participate.
i think it's a pretty simple thought process - if you're coming in to read a thread that you don't agree with, a thread that creates anxiety in you - simply CHOOSE not to read!! this whole discussion is about why people should be able to CHOOSE their mode of care. there has been no shutting down of pro-ob post, there has simply been response to points raised. this is obviously an emotive topic for so many people - there are those who have birthed the way they wanted, those that have been through traumatic births, and those of us who haven't been there yet - everyone comes from a different background, a different experience. and everyone will have a very different view point on what THEIR ideal birthing experience is/would be.Perhaps all these women having negative experiences would have a much better time if they could relax. White-coat syndrome is a real syndrome and you people who keep yapping about how awful doctors are really aren't helping, you're creating a negative perspective on something that needn't be so bad.
we all have choices - and if someone doesn't want to read about peoples negative experiences, they don't need to open the thread again...
I couldn't agree more with the opinions expressed by Sass and Kuraiza in this thread. The constant push that women who don't chose midwife only birthing options are uninformed and giving in to the evil, male dominated medical industry is offensive.
I can't help but notice that any time a poster pushes a view that is in opposition to the prevailing wisdom of this forum they are jumped on by the "moderators" and "creator". There seems little impartiality and a considerable conflict of interests as the forum is established by the Belly Belly birthing centre. At first I thought this site was driven by a political line but I now realise it is driven by a corporate line. A forum is supposed to be a place where posters can battle out conflicting opinions, not a place that is dominated by the opinions of moderators and the sites creator. The fact that this forum is linked to a business demonstrates that vested interests are at work here.
Lucy in the sky with diamonds.
Actually it was the forum that created the Pregnancy Centre.
ETA - the Mods are only 'moderating' if they are writing in purple, other than that its personal viewpoints with about 8 million facts thrown in.
Last edited by Lulu; August 31st, 2008 at 02:29 PM.
Moderator
How do you account for my first post in this thread where I pointed out that I would opt for ob care?
I don't think I'm uniformed (and I doubt that other people see me as such) or giving in to evil and I wasn't jumped on by the moderators or the creator (although they're hot, hot, hot so it wouldn't be such a bad fate :P )
I don't think that any of the mod team think that all women should choose midwife care however I believe it's true to say that we all passionately believe that women should be free to make such a choice and should have access to the sources that will enable them to make an educated choice.
Registered User
Dont you realise how ridiculous it is for you to say that? The medical profession is a soley corporate operation! The Pharmaceutical companies fund and orchestrate the entire medical profession - why do you think most GPs push drugs that they dont even understand? They are offered commissions to sell them but arent educated about them - they have to do that on their own (very limited) time.
The medical/Pharmaceutical professions have undergone a whole process of undermining the alternative methods of health care, ultimately to provide more money for the Pharmaceutical companies!! Open up your eyes and dont just follow the herd.
Registered User
it's fantastic for YOU that you have had great experiences with those you've been surrounded by - for a lot of us, that obviously isn't the case. i was not scaremongering, i was simply stating something i myself have observed. there are doctors out there that have NO IDEA how to relate to people. they have academic skills you wouldn't believe, can repeat every single function of the human body but when it comes to actually RELATING to people, putting them at ease, they have no idea! it doesn't mean they're not good at what they do, but that is not what you need when you're going into childbirth - you need to be comfortable. as you say, white-coat syndrome exists, and for some people, the thought of birthing in a hospital environment scares the crap out of them - birth isn't supposed to be a medical procedure.
as kelly so adequately said, you have been able to make your choice - the rest of us should be able to as well!
FWIW, i live in a rural area, and the only OB of any repute is leaving the area for a position down Melbourne way - better money, and definitely more prestige - and i don't blame him for it. from what i've heard, we're now left with two ob's that are far too scalpel-happy, with very ORDINARY reputations. unless i have a homebirth (which my DH isn't comfortable) i have no choice but to give birth at the local hospital, as there is NO OTHER OPTION. for ME, in MY CIRCUMSTANCES, i would love to have the option of birthing in a midwife led centre with close affilliations with the hospital IF it is deemed necessary that i need more help. White-coat syndrome doesn't just come from what you read online - it comes from being in an environment that makes you anxious for whatever reason - and knowing those ob's are the ones on call when i will birth scares the crap out of me already.
Registered User
Excuse me? You're showing your naivety there. I dare you to tell that to the women who've suffered VERY REAL trauma during an obstetric led birth. By telling them that maybe they would have had a much better time of it if they just relaxed totally devalues what they had to live through. Some even go so far as to call their birth trauma rape - yes, that's right - these women feel so violated from their experience that this is what they liken it to. You know what scaremongering is? When an ob tells a woman who is labouring fine, but is just taking a little too long for their liking that if she doesn't consent to a c/s that her baby will die - that's scaremongering. When women wanting to have a VBAC (Vaginal birth after ceasarian) are told all sorts of half truths about the risk to their baby and to themselves unless they have another c/s - that's scaremongering. When women aren't allowed to go to term of 42wks or beyond because of perceived risks to the baby from deteriorating placentas - thats scaremongering.
We don't scaremonger here. We educate. It's not a nice reality, but that's the way it is. You could almost call it our 'duty' to help educate women looking for better ways to birth. We help take away some of the naivety, because quite frankly, it is scary how many women go into pregnancy and birth 100% sure that their Ob has only their best interest at heart. But I have news for you - they don't (and I speak in the collective, because obviously not ALL obs are like that) - they are worried about lawsuits, about their reputations. They want to make life simple for THEM. You owe it to yourself and your baby to make sure that you are educated and are prepared for any eventualities that may come up. You are doing yourself a disservice if you don't.
Last edited by Trillian; August 30th, 2008 at 10:47 PM. : spelling
BellyBelly Life Subscriber
Thank you, Trillian. I heartily agree.
Registered User
You know, it's not easy to relax when a man walks into your cubicle when you are twenty years old having preterm contractions, tells the nurse to prep you for a pelvic exam, does the roughest one on you that you have ever had without personally addressing you once, snaps off the rubber gloves and then walks out the room without even speaking your name. Not only was it personally traumatic, it was dumb - why would you do a digital pelvic exam on a prematurely contracting woman? Evidence suggests that this is the best way to irritate a uterus and heighten the risk of infection.
I could go on, but that would be anecdote. What is not anecdote is that countries which have a higher rate of specialist care as the norm also have the highest caesarian rates and do not have the highest outcomes for mother and baby.
I'm sorry that the evidence makes you uncomfortable, but for most advocates of midwife based care, that is what motivates them. Sticking our fingers in our ears and singing "lalalala" because we don't want to frighten people doesn't lead to better outcomes.
Registered User
I am one of the women who suffered a traumatic birth at the hands of an obstitrician. I was under a midwifery care unit in a hospital and I hadn't seen an ob until I was 42 weeks. From that point on it was all scare mongering and all my choices were taken away. I actually had to ask a midwife to stay with me during one scan at 42 weeks and help decipher what he said. She helped me understand that I had choices and didn't have to go along with everything the OB wanted. In the end the birth was still traumatic.
My second birth, I was at the same hospital. I wasn't allowed the midwifery care unit as I was considered "high risk", I still saw mainly midwives and had 2 Ob appointments before I hit 41 weeks. At 41 weeks the Ob told me I was going to have a still born for wanting to choose differently to what she wanted (repeat c/s) I insisted on proof of the stillborn theory & she backtracked and said that it would "likely be a still birth". Imagine telling that to a 41 week pregnant woman who was well read on birth choices. I was like a bull and refused to see her again. She made an appointment for an u/s to prove to me that I needed to have the baby straight away, luckily it showed I didn't need to and everyone was okay. I gave birth spontaneously 2 days later with no obstitricians around. Not one came to check on me until after and I needed some stitches. I didn't see one for 2 hours after birth. I only needed them because Jovie came out with a hand on her head, otherwise they would have been completely unnecessary. Only around to scare monger me.
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