Would you give birth in a midwifery led unit?

[briggsy's girl]

Clare - then they should be midwives

too true Kel - if those with a passion for helping a woman birth stepped away from the obstetric model of care, and more towards the midwifery model, the birthing mother would be better served. if the emphasis of only paying a respectable income to those who have studied for years was taken away, and given more to those with experience, people with a genuine passion would be more prepared to move into that field. academic learning and a big pay packet don't make you qualified to help in birthing

how many doctors, of MANY specialties (GP's included), are all about the academics, and are only doctors because they got good grades in school, not because they have a genuine passion for helping PEOPLE. i think OB's have their place in some births, no doubt about it. and for some people, the obstetric model of care is what they need - but the argument here is that we SHOULD have a choice, and for so many people, that just isn't an option - there are not enough birthing centres by far which leaves you with the option of obstetric led care in a hospital environment (and even if it's mostly midwife care, ultimately, they don't have any power - they answer to an OB), or homebirth, which for many, is just not an option

[SunnyRain]

how many doctors, of MANY specialties (GP's included), are all about the academics, and are only doctors because they got good grades in school, not because they have a genuine passion for helping PEOPLE.

OH BOY, Not very many!! I've been surrounded by specialists and surgeons all my life. Including one of Australia's leading specialists in HIV research and others who worked alongside Fred Hollows. If it was school grades that drove these people they'd be financial consultants or lawyers.

Are you just scare mongering for the hell of it, or do you enjoy making the experience of pregnancy and the prospect of going to hospital even more stressful than it needs to be? You're actively working against creating the calm birthing experience that you advocate (I'm not just referring to the person I quoted, I've moved on to a broader audience).

Perhaps all these women having negative experiences would have a much better time if they could relax. White-coat syndrome is a real syndrome and you people who keep yapping about how awful doctors are really aren't helping, you're creating a negative perspective on something that needn't be so bad.

Yes this is my first pregnancy, but I'm not worried because I trust my obstetrician and I also know how to communicate with doctors instead of fearing them unjustly.

[BellyBelly]

This is a great discussion... if you don't like what you hear you don't have to participate. This is the joy of the internet, we can exchange experiences and learn. I haven't heard anyone call doctors crap or useless etc. Everyone has clearly said they have a place so I see no reason to change the direction of the conversation. Glad you are happy with your care - just as women should be allowed to have obstetric care and be happy with it, so should women who want midwifery care. See you have what you want so why should it matter? Clearly 74% of women in this poll want access to midwifery led care and I can tell you, only 3% of Victorian women give birth in a birth centre, 0.4% born before arrival, 0.3% planned homebirths and the rest hospital. HUGE difference based on this poll. Thats over 96% in hospital, obstetric based care. When 74% are saying we want something else. Not such a big deal when its not what you want isnt it? What if we took away obstetric care? Ooooh wouldnt there be a huge uproar then!

Women wanting midwifery care should be angry! They dont get THEIR choice.

[Sass]

This is a great discussion... if you don't like what you hear you don't have to participate.

I just remembered why I don't participate in these forums.

Call me naive but I think having dissenting opinions and voicing them actually adds to the discussion.

If I want to hang out in a militant forum where opposing viewpoints aren't welcome then I can go hang out at MDC.

[MantaRay]

Kuraiza, I totally understand where you are coming from. When I was pg with my first, I had the same opinion. Nothing but an ob for me - that's where you get the best care, right? Nothing like knowing the person who will be delivering your baby, right? I get how you feel hun, I truly do. And you know what, I had a truly great ob too, one of the very best I would say! And I would still say that.

So what changed my mind about mw vs ob? My first birth actually. DS1 decided to arrive on a Friday night/Sat morning when my ob wasn't on call. The ob who was on call is also a pretty good ob, but he had already had a cs and a vb before me, and another woman in labour. The poor guy was probably exhausted and wanting to catch every little bit of sleep he could over the weekend. So, I copped the cascade of interventions.

First my waters were broken. This caused sudden, intense contractions (and I was having a back labour too for some reason). And because these pains hit while I was lying on my back being monitored, I wasn't dealing with it well. The anaestitist was there having just done a cs, and was about to leave, so I was pressured into an epidural with the "it's now or never" line and being told I would be in that much pain for at least 8 more hours (if they had read my file they would have known that my ob was expecting me to have a quick labour like my mum, and in fact I did have quick labours so the 8 hours was rubbish). So I gave in to pressure and had the epidural. I warned them I had low bp and sure enough that made it worse. Labour slowed, baby went into distress and I couldn't even raise my head without feeling like I was going to pass out. So flat on my back I pushed without feeling. I ended up needing forceps, an episiotomy, therefore stitches. I had a lot of pain afterwards from that and also other problems which I won't go into here.

Having since had a 3 hour labour in a conduicive and comfortable position, without an epidural, I know now what labour can, and should be like. And how insidious the cascade of interventions is. And this is with an ob who is definitely one of the better ones!!

Kuraiza, I truly hope that you have a better experience than me.

[Freya]

First my waters were broken. This caused sudden, intense contractions (and I was having a back labour too for some reason). And because these pains hit while I was lying on my back being monitored, I wasn't dealing with it well. The anaestitist was there having just done a cs, and was about to leave, so I was pressured into an epidural with the "it's now or never" line and being told I would be in that much pain for at least 8 more hours (if they had read my file they would have known that my ob was expecting me to have a quick labour like my mum, and in fact I did have quick labours so the 8 hours was rubbish).

I had a similar experience BUT it was midwives instead of my OB. I was a first timer, they didnt listen to me telling them I needed to push because "first labours take a LONG time" so I asked for an epi as I was exhausted and scared I would crash out and end up with a c/s. It was only the anaesthesist telling them to listen to me and check dialation that showed them I was ready to push. Obviously I did not have the epi but what would have happened if I had of because the anaesthesist didnt care about anything but getting $$$ out of me for pain relief? So it goes both ways really. I think what situations like this really show is that medical birthing professionals (Midwives & OBs) have gotten so used to women being blind in birthing choices and information that when they come across someone who is informed, they just dont "hear" it so to speak.

I also just want to say that I have never seen Kelly or any of the mods berate or belittle a person for choosing OB care and intervention. BB and a majority of women using it are all about INFORMED CHOICES not bullying people into having natural births.

[Julie Doula]

I also just want to say that I have never seen Kelly or any of the mods berate or belittle a person for choosing OB care and intervention. BB and a majority of women using it are all about INFORMED CHOICES not bullying people into having natural births.

I've seen Kelly get flak for supporting women women who choose/prefer obstetric care. And for supporting women who get bullied into obstetric care. Seems like she gets it from all sides! What she has done is create a forum community that supports informed choice, and people's individual journeys towards more informed choice. Birth is always going to be a hotly debated topic, but to go against the tide of mainstream opinion in a medicalised culture takes some courage. I don't think Kelly or any of the other mods here would say there is only one right way or best way. But opening up the menu a bit, sharing stories, and making the info & knowlegde out there that much more acccessible is all good. It takes guts to open up discussion where there are naturally going to be many & varied opinions.

[Schmickers]

I just remembered why I don't participate in these forums.

Call me naive but I think having dissenting opinions and voicing them actually adds to the discussion.

If I want to hang out in a militant forum where opposing viewpoints aren't welcome then I can go hang out at MDC.

Sass,

I have just checked the records, and no posts have been edited or moderated from this thread. We have also not thus far had to post any warnings to the thread. Discussion has been civilised, though passionate at times. Your only contribution to the thread was to discuss your own experience, and your more recent post I quoted above.

I think you perhaps miss BellyBelly's point? Saying "if you don't like what you hear, don't participate" does not equate to "If you don't agree with what you hear, don't participate". We have had men and women from all walks and all viewpoints post to this thread to voice their opinions, and it has sparked some interesting, and I think very valuable debate. As yet, I am not aware of anyone who has been unfairly criticised or excluded from this thread. Any concerns that the Mod team have been made aware of have been dealt with in the best possible way - through intelligent debate. It is certainly true that the prevailing viewpoint is that midwifery-led birthing services are a great option and that the overwhelming majority of voters in the poll, and respondents to the thread, would choose that option. That does not mean that people who would not choose that option should leave the thread; on tbhe contrary, that is exactly what this thread is for, examining both sides of the argument and testing whether the claims of Dr. Mourik hold true when applies to a community of well educated, well informed men and women. The entire crux of this thread, indeed, illustrates that this is not the case.

Sass, if you have any specific concerns, I encourage you to contact myself (schmickers@bellybelly.com.au) or any of the other moderators. Often the quickest way to do so is to use the "Report Thread" button at the top of the post that concerns you. But making spurious claims that this forum is militant and oppresses dissenting opinions does not add to the discussion. Whether your viewpoint agrees or disagrees with the majority view, you are welcome to participate here.

[briggsy's girl]

i think Kel has been seriously taken out of context with her comment :

This is a great discussion... if you don't like what you hear you don't have to participate.

it was in response to someone telling people to stop scare mongering as they're a first time mom-to-be, telling people that simply relaxing will make their negative experiences not seem so bad:

Perhaps all these women having negative experiences would have a much better time if they could relax. White-coat syndrome is a real syndrome and you people who keep yapping about how awful doctors are really aren't helping, you're creating a negative perspective on something that needn't be so bad.

i think it's a pretty simple thought process - if you're coming in to read a thread that you don't agree with, a thread that creates anxiety in you - simply CHOOSE not to read!! this whole discussion is about why people should be able to CHOOSE their mode of care. there has been no shutting down of pro-ob post, there has simply been response to points raised. this is obviously an emotive topic for so many people - there are those who have birthed the way they wanted, those that have been through traumatic births, and those of us who haven't been there yet - everyone comes from a different background, a different experience. and everyone will have a very different view point on what THEIR ideal birthing experience is/would be.

we all have choices - and if someone doesn't want to read about peoples negative experiences, they don't need to open the thread again...

[Sass]

I'm sorry - you can't see how "if you don't like it then don't participate" has connotations of being unwelcoming to people with dissenting opinions? What about "if you don't like it then post your reasoning why and maybe we can come to some sort of understanding"?

From a man who can extrapolate an accusation of an oppressing regime on a forum that modifies and deletes posts from a comment that it's unwelcoming to opposing viewpoints (based on a comment from the forum creator) I find that very hard to believe.

Also, if you really believe that that was what I was saying why would you offer a solution of reporting a post (by the forum creator) to the moderators of a forum that I believe is oppressive and deletes or modifies anything that they disagree with? It doesn't even begin to make sense.

Regardless, I'm not here for a flamewar. I chose to not participate on these boards after I first joined because of the vibe I got -whether correct or not - from many of the posts I read that any opinion other than the 'party line' was unwelcome here.

I came back in response to the email sent to forum members because I wanted to participate in the poll and maybe add my experiences in NSW to the anecdotal evidence. Within a page of me posting there was a response from the forum creator that backed up my previously held opinion. Your further post has just compounded that opinion.

I posted my comment before to show kuraiza that there were some posters that appreciated her perspective even if they don't hold the same opinions and because I assumed, perhaps erroneously, that BellyBelly staff may like to know why some people don't stick around here.

I will cede that the last sentence in my post was unnecessarily inflammatory but it was posted as a kneejerk response to the disgust I felt at BellyBelly's comment. I was actually coming back to edit it out having had a chance to cool down and reflect that it was probably not appropriate but found your post and here we are.

I'll not post again and hope that the board can get back to the original topic, which is certainly more worthy of discussion.

[tuckers daughter]

I just remembered why I don't participate in these forums.

Call me naive but I think having dissenting opinions and voicing them actually adds to the discussion.

If I want to hang out in a militant forum where opposing viewpoints aren't welcome then I can go hang out at MDC.

I couldn't agree more with the opinions expressed by Sass and Kuraiza in this thread. The constant push that women who don't chose midwife only birthing options are uninformed and giving in to the evil, male dominated medical industry is offensive.

I can't help but notice that any time a poster pushes a view that is in opposition to the prevailing wisdom of this forum they are jumped on by the "moderators" and "creator". There seems little impartiality and a considerable conflict of interests as the forum is established by the Belly Belly birthing centre. At first I thought this site was driven by a political line but I now realise it is driven by a corporate line. A forum is supposed to be a place where posters can battle out conflicting opinions, not a place that is dominated by the opinions of moderators and the sites creator. The fact that this forum is linked to a business demonstrates that vested interests are at work here.

[Lulu]

Actually it was the forum that created the Pregnancy Centre.

ETA - the Mods are only 'moderating' if they are writing in purple, other than that its personal viewpoints with about 8 million facts thrown in.

[tuckers daughter]

Actually it was the forum that created the Pregnancy Centre.

ETA - the Mods are only 'moderating' if they are writing in purple, other than that its personal viewpoints with about 8 million facts thrown in.

Chicken or egg, it's a vested interest. A vested interest that provides insight to the opinions of the creator and moderators on this site.

And a moderator is only moderating when the write in purple ink? The moderator and creator have a line to push possibly influenced by a vested commercial interest.

[Phteven]

I couldn't agree more with the opinions expressed by Sass and Kuraiza in this thread. The constant push that women who don't chose midwife only birthing options are uninformed and giving in to the evil, male dominated medical industry is offensive.

I can't help but notice that any time a poster pushes a view that is in opposition to the prevailing wisdom of this forum they are jumped on by the "moderators" and "creator". There seems little impartiality and a considerable conflict of interests as the forum is established by the Belly Belly birthing centre.

How do you account for my first post in this thread where I pointed out that I would opt for ob care?
I don't think I'm uniformed (and I doubt that other people see me as such) or giving in to evil and I wasn't jumped on by the moderators or the creator (although they're hot, hot, hot so it wouldn't be such a bad fate :P )
I don't think that any of the mod team think that all women should choose midwife care however I believe it's true to say that we all passionately believe that women should be free to make such a choice and should have access to the sources that will enable them to make an educated choice.

[fionas]

I'm a little disappointed that this thread seems to have become a battleground.

Yes, there are going to be passionate opinions. But can't we just all agree that it's best if women have as many options for birthing as possible from homebirth, to midwife care to private obs.

I really couldn't care less how other women choose to give birth AS LONG AS they're fully informed. I would support another woman's choice to have an elective caesarean just as much as I would support a woman's choice to have a homebirth provided that each had done their research.

Neither of those would be my personal choice but just as I would support other women's choice, I would expect other women to be supportive of my choice if I had made it through knowledge rather than ignorance.

I think, in the main, 99% of the BB community would agree - we see being here as a chance to hear other women's (and men's) opinions and then to make our own mind up. It's just that one person's "information" is another person's "militancy".

I'm going to have a cup of tea. I might even have a Bex and a lie down.

[richsaralex]

At first I thought this site was driven by a political line but I now realise it is driven by a corporate line. A forum is supposed to be a place where posters can battle out conflicting opinions, not a place that is dominated by the opinions of moderators and the sites creator. The fact that this forum is linked to a business demonstrates that vested interests are at work here.

Dont you realise how ridiculous it is for you to say that? The medical profession is a soley corporate operation! The Pharmaceutical companies fund and orchestrate the entire medical profession - why do you think most GPs push drugs that they dont even understand? They are offered commissions to sell them but arent educated about them - they have to do that on their own (very limited) time.
The medical/Pharmaceutical professions have undergone a whole process of undermining the alternative methods of health care, ultimately to provide more money for the Pharmaceutical companies!! Open up your eyes and dont just follow the herd.

[BellyBelly]

Obviously this thread isn't going to stay on track. Whether we agree with you or not, to be fair, we're going to have to remove all the posts that continued after the warning. Anyone else posting off track will have their posts also removed without warning. We welcome any comments which stick to the original topic, and not any inflammatory posts towards other members, the moderators or how we run BB. It works, it's the rules and you agree to that when you join as a member. Read the forum guidelines if you need a refresh.

[briggsy's girl]

OH BOY, Not very many!! I've been surrounded by specialists and surgeons all my life. Including one of Australia's leading specialists in HIV research and others who worked alongside Fred Hollows. If it was school grades that drove these people they'd be financial consultants or lawyers.

it's fantastic for YOU that you have had great experiences with those you've been surrounded by - for a lot of us, that obviously isn't the case. i was not scaremongering, i was simply stating something i myself have observed. there are doctors out there that have NO IDEA how to relate to people. they have academic skills you wouldn't believe, can repeat every single function of the human body but when it comes to actually RELATING to people, putting them at ease, they have no idea! it doesn't mean they're not good at what they do, but that is not what you need when you're going into childbirth - you need to be comfortable. as you say, white-coat syndrome exists, and for some people, the thought of birthing in a hospital environment scares the crap out of them - birth isn't supposed to be a medical procedure.

as kelly so adequately said, you have been able to make your choice - the rest of us should be able to as well!


FWIW, i live in a rural area, and the only OB of any repute is leaving the area for a position down Melbourne way - better money, and definitely more prestige - and i don't blame him for it. from what i've heard, we're now left with two ob's that are far too scalpel-happy, with very ORDINARY reputations. unless i have a homebirth (which my DH isn't comfortable) i have no choice but to give birth at the local hospital, as there is NO OTHER OPTION. for ME, in MY CIRCUMSTANCES, i would love to have the option of birthing in a midwife led centre with close affilliations with the hospital IF it is deemed necessary that i need more help. White-coat syndrome doesn't just come from what you read online - it comes from being in an environment that makes you anxious for whatever reason - and knowing those ob's are the ones on call when i will birth scares the crap out of me already.