The Breastfeeding Nazi - For Real?

[LimeSlice]

I just think people get their backs up about the use of the word "nazi", and I honestly think we need to get past this.
There are sooo many words in the language that have been taken and used and applied to other topics than the original meanings, the evolution of the language. Nazi is one of these terms.
People aren't saying that there are women who want to march across Europe and gas everyone with a formula tin in their cupboard! Really? No.
The use of the word in this context is used to enforce the strength behind their militance. To demonstrate that they are one minded and militant in their support for a particular ideal. That they go to extremes to get the point across. It isn't literal, it isn't an analogy. It is a metaphor.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I have German Jews in my family, some made it out before the war (you might know one, he went on to start one of the most successful movie studios in Hollywood), some didn't, but their life circumstances don't influence how I hear a word used in a totally different context, I do refuse to give it that power. Especially when you actually look at what the word means - it simply means one who belongs to a particular political party, the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. Nothing more. Many of the German population were Nazi's, and that doesn't mean they knew of, supported, or actively killed Jews or anyone else. It simply means they were socialists who identified with a particular movement - that existed long before Hitler became a part of it, or Himmler, and long before the Jews were an issue. Just some (alternative) perspective. It is just a word.

[fionas]

For me the term Breastfeeding Nazi does not apply to a pro-breastfeeding stance, it applies to a stance that says that breastfeeding is the be all and end all. Partly, it applies to a stance that says bottle-feeding a baby will cause nipple confusion and a bottle must never be given under any circumstances. Which is totally inaccurate and unhelpful. I am extremely pro-breastfeeding, if I wasn't I wouldn't have relactated. But if I hadn't fallen for the line that if a baby has a bottle they will never breastfeed, then I may not have needed to relactate.

FWIW, I found the ABA to be incredibly supportive and very well-balanced when I went through a horrendous time trying to breastfeed DD1. They were also completely supportive of my decision to formula feed and made me feel at peace with that decision telling me, "breasfeeding is not the most important thing about being a mum." If all pro-breastfeeders were as supportive and lovely as my ABA counsellor, the mothering world would be a better place. Sadly, they're not.

[Maruschke]

I just think people get their backs up about the use of the word "nazi", and I honestly think we need to get past this.
There are sooo many words in the language that have been taken and used and applied to other topics than the original meanings, the evolution of the language. Nazi is one of these terms.
People aren't saying that there are women who want to march across Europe and gas everyone with a formula tin in their cupboard! Really? No.
The use of the word in this context is used to enforce the strength behind their militance. To demonstrate that they are one minded and militant in their support for a particular ideal. That they go to extremes to get the point across. It isn't literal, it isn't an analogy. It is a metaphor.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I have German Jews in my family, some made it out before the war (you might know one, he went on to start one of the most successful movie studios in Hollywood), some didn't, but their life circumstances don't influence how I hear a word used in a totally different context, I do refuse to give it that power. Especially when you actually look at what the word means - it simply means one who belongs to a particular political party, the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. Nothing more. Many of the German population were Nazi's, and that doesn't mean they knew of, supported, or actively killed Jews or anyone else. It simply means they were socialists who identified with a particular movement - that existed long before Hitler became a part of it, or Himmler, and long before the Jews were an issue. Just some (alternative) perspective. It is just a word.

You've got some cool rellies.

What I oppose is not that the word Nazi is being applied in another context, because I can see how it could transfer in a meaningful way. I oppose "breastfeeding Nazi" because the offence is no where near what the Jews endured. It isn't an equal comparison, the passion of the militant pro-BF'ers who take it too far, still pales in comparison with the passion (is that the right word?) of Hitler to exterminate the Jews. It just isn't on the same plane.

In the end, those pro-BF'ers who take it too far, are small in numbers, small in impact (FF is not illegal, we still have our free choice) and aren't physically threatening our existence in any way. Using the term Nazi to describe the situation either drastically overstates the oppression cause by the extreme pro-BFers, or drastically understates the oppression suffered by the Jews.

Can someone show me an example of an offence perpetrated by a person, relating to child feeding, that was so extreme it warrants being called Nazi-ish, with all of it's connotations? Either by a pro-BF'er or a pro-FF'er or anyone?

[LimeSlice]

What I oppose is not that the word Nazi is being applied in another context, because I can see how it could transfer in a meaningful way. I oppose "breastfeeding Nazi" because the offence is no where near what the Jews endured. It isn't an equal comparison, the passion of the militant pro-BF'ers who take it too far, still pales in comparison with the passion (is that the right word?) of Hitler to exterminate the Jews. It just isn't on the same plane.

I hear you. In my mind that is why the word is used - because it does illustrate a very clear image in the mind of just how far some people are into it. That they do take it just as seriously, iykwim.
I must admit I encounter the extreme militant mindset of many more people in the anti-circ crowd than the BF crowd. I have seen threads where people suggest in very strong terms the arrest of parents who choose to circumcise, where removal of children and the words "child abuse" are used, where the advocation of violence against those who circumcise is strong. To my mind, the phrase "intact nazi" should be applied more readily than "breastfeeding nazi", I don't often hear/see that violent response to feeding choices.

Again, though, I suppose it comes back to the (mis)use of a single word getting in the way of the issue from either direction. It is hindering the message, so it is ineffective. This doesn't mean that the people it is trying to describe are figments of the social imagination though.

[Maruschke]

I hear you. In my mind that is why the word is used - because it does illustrate a very clear image in the mind of just how far some people are into it. That they do take it just as seriously, iykwim.
I must admit I encounter the extreme militant mindset of many more people in the anti-circ crowd than the BF crowd. I have seen threads where people suggest in very strong terms the arrest of parents who choose to circumcise, where removal of children and the words "child abuse" are used, where the advocation of violence against those who circumcise is strong. To my mind, the phrase "intact nazi" should be applied more readily than "breastfeeding nazi", I don't often hear/see that violent response to feeding choices.

Again, though, I suppose it comes back to the (mis)use of a single word getting in the way of the issue from either direction. It is hindering the message, so it is ineffective. This doesn't mean that the people it is trying to describe are figments of the social imagination though.

I understand (I hope!). When I hear people compare their experience with the holocaust by using the Nazi word, it immediately makes me think they are exaggerating. So then it doesn't help them get me to believe (to the extent they are claiming) how badly persecuted they have been by the BF crowd. It's also quite emotive. All these things make me stop listening.

[onthefly]

I still wonder that this is directed so often against breastfeeding.... what does that say?

Again, though, I suppose it comes back to the (mis)use of a single word getting in the way of the issue from either direction. It is hindering the message, so it is ineffective. This doesn't mean that the people it is trying to describe are figments of the social imagination though.

It's also quite emotive. All these things make me stop listening.

This is the crux of it, I think. When people get all emotive and abusive they do not get their points across.
And when people paint those from the opposing side as having emotive, abusive viewpoints, people switch off, even if that perception is entirely unfair.

[LimeSlice]

Yes, totally. Wasn't there a thread aaaages ago about an article written about how as soon as someone brings Nazi's or the Holocaust into a totally unrelated argument, the thread dies a painful death? lol You know they are either out of effective argument, or are too thick to put the point across without dramatics.


Does nobody else find it amusing that we are so pro-choice of mothers/parents to choose what to feed their infants, but as soon as conversation turns to older children eating McDonald's and junk every meal, everyone has an opinion and the classic "child abuse" argument is trotted out? Why is it that as a society we are so adament that parent's choice is King when it comes to infants, but children are the public domain and parents must toe the line? At what age does that happen? Why do we get up in arms if a 6 week old baby is feed solids but not if they are fed formula that may just as hard to digest?

[onthefly]

Yes, Goodwin's rule.
good question!
is there more emotion attached to breastfeeding and alternatives as opposed to other foods? You're not allowed to make mother's feel guilty, you know....

[Maruschke]

And when people paint those from the opposing side as having emotive, abusive viewpoints, people switch off, even if that perception is entirely unfair.

Absolutely, it cuts both ways, doesn't it? It reminds me of something I learned (darn I wish I remember where) that the first person to cry, wins. Because playing the victim detracts from the real content of the debate. If you can make it look like you've been bullied, you've "won". And that's just not cool.

[AnalyticalArmadillo]

[COLOR="#006400"]I think the Breastfeeding Nazi is a very real thing. All you need to do is get on some of the FB pages and they are rife with overly judgmental, obsessive fanatics. Although the term "nazi" is not my word choice, I think it needs to be noted that the word has evolved to mean other things besides the literal noun.

Are "Formula Fascists" also real? I see women saying bfing is disgusting, should be done in a toilet, is akin to taking a dump - and look at all the things the mum on the thread had been called for breastfeeding? Is it therefore to say everyone who formula feeds is like this?

Name calling generalises everyone together - rather than saying they are fanatics on both sides? Let's take the Muslim religion as an example - the vast majority promote peace; then there is a fringe minority that are extreme. To state all Muslims are X based on the practice of a few is unfair and small minded - plus it upsets those who don't fit this stereotype.

We have reached a point that anyone vaguely supportive of bfing is considered Nazi or Mafia - so much so that when calling us people often express relief that we are not. Name calling only serves to build the "us and them" divide, and surely also therefore hinders those who need help accessing it. Of course this is what some companies want, but does this really help anyone?

AA
ps thanks for the links share
pss I re the image verification to post - am I just blind? lol I have to refresh 10 times to get one I can read

[AnalyticalArmadillo]

It reminds me of something I learned (darn I wish I remember where) that the first person to cry, wins. Because playing the victim detracts from the real content of the debate. If you can make it look like you've been bullied, you've "won". And that's just not cool.

That's REALLY interesting and VERY true, exactly what happened on Jo Tantum's Facebook wall recently!! Yes please remember where you read it lol

[Artechim]

I wouldn't consider the vast majority of BF supporters to be 'breastfeeding Nazi's', but the are the few that are over the top and that is whom I consider the title to belong to.

There aren't many formula fascists because they are stomped out of the public eye by the BF advocates. Again my example of the BF's uproar over 2 seconds of bottle-feeding on T.V, whilst they run regular 'breast is best' ads featuring breastfeeding.

[Phteven]

I assume this man was selected because he is a role model so to reduce it to 2 seconds on TV is a bit disingenuous. It is 2 seconds that would be repeated numerous times. 2 seconds of a popular public figure and role model normailsing the use of artificial baby milk. I can see why La Leche would have been upset. Legally I suspect it may contravene the WHO regulations about the advertising of formula.

Since bottle feeding is pretty much the norm in fictional film and tv I'm not sure why having to remove something from an ad is such a big deal.

[wysiwyg]

Since bottle feeding is pretty much the norm in fictional film and tv

I hadn't really realized how true this is until I watched "Tinker Tailor" and at the beginning there is a woman breastfeeding, I really noticed it and thought great a woman breastfeeding in a film - but then she gets shot!. Also then DH pointed out that the film is set in the 70's and that scene is in Hungary I think and actually BF images are more prominent in films set in the past.

[onthefly]

It's such a novelty to see breastfeeding. It has to be protected by law. We have debates about whether it's acceptable. We have medical specialists and helplines to try and support it.
It's clearly not the norm in our society. Trying to claim that formula feeders are put upon is pretty disingenious. However, advertisers and manufacturers of ABM USE this perception and the guilt that comes with mothers not breastfeeding - which is, in part, an aspect of the grief that accompanies the disruption of normal physiological and hormonal processes after birth - to sell their products.
Advertisers sell things as a way to be happy or fulfilled - things which are easier and safer than actual human intimacy. The bottle and dummy replace the breast.

[LimeSlice]

Are "Formula Fascists" also real? I see women saying bfing is disgusting, should be done in a toilet, is akin to taking a dump - and look at all the things the mum on the thread had been called for breastfeeding? Is it therefore to say everyone who formula feeds is like this?

Name calling generalises everyone together - rather than saying they are fanatics on both sides? Let's take the Muslim religion as an example - the vast majority promote peace; then there is a fringe minority that are extreme. To state all Muslims are X based on the practice of a few is unfair and small minded - plus it upsets those who don't fit this stereotype.

We have reached a point that anyone vaguely supportive of bfing is considered Nazi or Mafia - so much so that when calling us people often express relief that we are not. Name calling only serves to build the "us and them" divide, and surely also therefore hinders those who need help accessing it. Of course this is what some companies want, but does this really help anyone?

AA
ps thanks for the links share
pss I re the image verification to post - am I just blind? lol I have to refresh 10 times to get one I can read

Of course they exist. Nobody said it was one sided. I know they exist - I was raised by one. And I still went on to become a lactivist and have been breastfeeding for the last 5 years.

But also nobody applied the term "breastfeeding nazi" to ANYONE and EVERYONE who promotes breastfeeding. It is not an all in situation. To suggest that those militants don't exist AT ALL is ridiculous, because most of us have seen them in action. I have never been called a breastfeeding nazi, even though, as I stated above, I probably actually am one.

What "name" would you prefer? Because you will get one. As a supporter or a promoter of natural feeding, you will get one - do you like lactivist? I know some that don't, but they don't feel the need to be all offended and put out by people calling them that. Because they don't give them that much power - it makes no difference. A name is a name is a name. I couldn't care less what people call me, because ultimately it belittles their own position. If you take offence, you give them the power, I refuse to do that.

So you can continue to argue semantics or you can keep focused and draw the attention back to the real debate, the real point and your real cause. I know which I prefer.


ETA: I am reminded of a quote, from one of my favourite people, Stephen Fry. "It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so ****ing what?"

[Phteven]

Without reading that quote in context I assume that Stephen Fry is talking about those people who seem to have a special talent for being offended rather than issuing a battle cry for the insensitive use of language. I assume that because Stephen Fry has always struck me as a thoroughly decent man.

The way I see it being offended doesn't give you special rights but that doesn't make it ok to be offensive. Offending someone isn't a blow for democracy or free speech. It's not clever or difficult to be offensive, in fact, it is much more challenging to express oneself without giving offense. Yes, we have the right to freedom of speech but IMO life isn't just about belligerently defending our rights we also have responsibilities and one of the simplest is not to hurt other people when we can avoid it. I have the right not to let someone into the queue to exit the car-park at the shopping center but I prefer not to always exercise that right. The woman with the screaming toddler at the supermarket has no right to get in front of me at the check-out but I think we all benefit if I give up my right to be served first so that her and Mr Screamypants can get the hell out of there.

As an alternative to Breastfeeding Nazi I think that we can use lactivist or breastfeeding advocate. TBH I have never met one of these strident offensive breast feeding activists that people keep telling me about. I have met women who give up their free time to help other women feed their babies and they are rather wonderful. I think it is a shame that anyone calls these women Nazis just because they are passionate and helpful. I work out a lot and there is a meme that does the rounds about being fit. Something along the lines of “Obsessed is just a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated.” People identify with it because most people who are quite fit have had to deal with name calling from people sitting on the couch. I think there is something similar at work with the use of the term Nazi. If we can use a very derogatory term about people who advocate for increased breastfeeding then we can feel better about our own journey.

[LimeSlice]

I agree with you Onyx. I suppose my point is that I don't see the point in getting offended. If I took offense to everything offensive said to or about me, I would be curled up in a ball in the corner rocking slowly. lol If you know the tag is inappropriate for you, then ignore it. There is now a whole thread about the use of a particular word than there is about the actual issue needing advocacy. It doesn't make the word ok, it doesn't give permission for being deliberately offensive, it just means you don't need to be offended, just choose not to.

When they go fishing, and you bite, your cause loses.