i think this is what many people have been trying to say.
Registered User
I just want to butt in and mention that I am a bit dubious about the idea that alcohol isn't really harmful to all people let alone babies. The alcohol industry is very wealthy and powerful and has been around for a long time. To say IT IS FACT!! ignores the fact (!!!) not too long ago (and still today in some countries) it is also FACT that formula feeding is better than breastfeeding. It was also FACT that cigarette smoking was safe once upon a time! I have a copy of "Everywoman" that says smoking less than 10 cigarettes a day during pregnancy is perfectly healthy and will not negatively affect the baby in any way! I am not saying that it is better to formula feed than to breastfeed with x amount of alcohol in your system, far from it, what I'm saying is that those "facts" are not necessarily reliable when you're talking about large companies who probably do not want the full extent of the harmful effects of their products known (and obviously, formula companies could very well be included in that).
Registered User
i think this is what many people have been trying to say.
Registered User
I don't know enough about alcohol and breastmilk to be able to answer your question. Perhaps pose that question to one of the other girls and see what they say? ..... My statement was in regard to crap 'diets' and what i meant by diet was say if we ate maccas all day every day.... yes i would happily take the EBM of a Mum whom consumed this.... over FF my baby. I know enough about that to know what i'd choose.
In saying this i would also use formula if there was no other option and i had exhausted all efforts to BF my child...... as i've said before, i have had to use formula at one stage......so i understand the guilt alot of mothers feel when using formula for their babies.
BellyBelly Member
The course Im doing Im lucky enough to be able to futhur it even more a bf Doula course. So hopefully Ill have some answers to some of these questions
So far I have learnt that the most simple of things can help make a better birth for a woman, natural, again cant always be reached BUT we have a % of c/s that is growing at a worrying rate. This is the same as ff. We are altering mother nature to a point where it has to give/break somewhere.
What worries me is that how many of that % altering mother nature, when it comes to our babys, that it HAD to happen for the survival of our babies and not, 'it suited our life better'
Again, I dont want everybody coming back at me with "well mine was for the life of my baby and myself" as I KNOW there's is a SMALL % where this is the case.
So when it comes to our future YES i believe that this 'simple' task of feeding our babies, our future adults, needs to be handled with care and not brushed off.
Registered User
if the impacts of not BF are to be seen, we should be seeing them now. i have DH's child health book and he was on watered down condensed milk. whatever replacement it was, it wasn't breast milk. yup, 45 years ago, it was normal to wean onto replacements at a very young age if they were BF at all
Yes, as a society, we are facing a problem with obesity, diabetes, heart disease, but i defy ANYONE to say that this is solely attributed to formula feeding. there is no way, unless you get identical twins and lock them away for their entire lives, one FF for the first 2 years, one BF, that you can say that FF is THE factor that leads to health problems in life. the behaviours of society as a whole (our reliance on fast/convenience food) are contributing far more than the mode of feeding our children at birth! i would be able to pick apart any "evidence" that was handed over in regard to breast vs formula because, lets face it, there are just no controls and too many outside factors that could contribute to the outcomes they reach
Registered User
But that is just it, I refuse to fell guilty or to be made to feel guilty about giving formula to my child. Yes I breastfed her for the first 5 months of her life, but due to supply issues and working I made the decision to put her onto formula. If I refuse to feel guilty about it, then I refuse to make any other person feel guilty about it as well. The reason a person makes a decsion is theirs to decide and should not be second guessed or pooh poohed by somebody else.
And to make a point, if I was to go onto the vaccination forums and tell people to vaccinate with some of the reasons given here for breastfeeding, then I would be shouted down and quite rightly so. It's amazing the amount of people that are against compulsory vaccination but feel it is ok to make people breastfeed.
BellyBelly Member
"Think of it this way, the average glass of wine is around 10 - 12% alcohol. If you would drink one glass, there is no way your alcohol level would be equal to the beverage you drank. If that were the case, you'd most certainly drop over dead from poisoning. A mother who is 120 lbs who drank 2-3 glasses of wine over an hour would have an estimated blood alcohol content of between .06% to .10% alcohol. That's significantly less that 10-12%.
The same goes for your baby. If he would drink breastmilk that was .08% alcohol, his alcohol level would be far less than that."
From ABA...
Key points
• Breastfeeding is important for your baby’s physical
growth and emotional and mental development.
• You can have up to 2 standard drinks, but not every
day, once your baby is a month old.
• Breastfeed before you have alcohol.
• Eat before and while you are drinking.
• Plan ahead if you think you may occasionally have
more than 2 standard drinks.
• It is better to give a breastfeed with a small amount of
alcohol than to feed artificial baby milk.
• There are risks in feeding your baby artificial baby milk.
"Conclusion - What is best for baby?
The evidence suggests that for mothers who want to enjoy the odd drink, switching to bottle-feeding is not necessary and may deny your baby the benefits of breast milk.
"Breast milk from a mother, who has the occasional small glass of wine or half a pint of beer (the equivalent of one to two alcohol units) is still superior to formula milk, which does not contain all the immunological and other special properties we know breast milk has," says Wendy.
"If you know your boundaries with alcohol, there is no need to switch to formula," agrees Geraldine. "Just think of all the benefits your baby will be missing out on if you give up breastfeeding during the day - just so that you can have a glass of wine at night."
"Dr. Jack Newman, member of the LLLI Health Advisory Council, states that
"Reasonable alcohol intake should not be discouraged at all. As is the case with most drugs, very little alcohol comes out in the milk. The mother can take some alcohol and continue breastfeeding as she normally does. Prohibiting alcohol is another way we make life unnecessarily restrictive for nursing mothers."
Just some snippets on moderate drinking, there actually isn't that much on heavy drinkers...... but to be honest, with b/f numbers so so low, how many of them are alcoholics?? All the party/drinking girls i know use formula and babysitters, not b/f anyway, although of course there will be the odd exception.
With regards to "stoner" mums, I'll have to search more, but in reality, is that any worse than a cigarette smoking mother who b/f? And there are a lot of mums who do smoke and feed, even while b/f at the same time and blowing smoke ONTO their baby, and no one tells a smoker to not b/f.
It is damn hard to find good research!!!
Registered User
We aren't arguing with nature, just pointing out that formula is the next best thing to BM. That's all.Taurean, TBH, the impact on society as a whole, not just babies will not really be known yet for another I say 20yrs or so.... if you look at the generations now receiving FF as opposed to years and years ago when it was mainly BF, when most families couldn't afford formula as it was too expensive...... we really don't know the implications this will all have on our society and environment until further down the track. It is still too early to tell I believe.... I do know however, that nature designed breastmilk for babies. This is what nature ALWAYS intended babies to have.
Yes I have had to use formula for my DD when she was very young (low milk supply issues and low weight gains).... but I corrected the issues we had an exclusively BF her from 5mths onwards..... it was never easy for me. But I fought for DD's right to breastfeed and to receive breastmilk as i knew it was her birthright to receive it until (at least) 12mths.
I don't understand how people can argue with nature???
I agree, it will be interesting to see the effects less breastfeeding will have on generations to come but I must point out, there are plenty of babies from the 60's and 70's who weren't breastfed. There was formula, soy milk, cows milk, goats milk (quite popular for babies with allergies) and Carnation and condensed milk (scary, I know, but true). I think you'll find that breastfeeding was actually less acceptable 30, 40 even 50 years ago in our society. Babies were often taken away from their mothers in the hospital to be fed (from the bottle and it wasn't EBM) four hourly on the dot. Women were shunned for breastfeeding and those who did, often had to feed in private (except for those who attended the hippy festivals of the 60's where anything went!).
I, my sister and brother were all formula fed. In our 30's, all three of us are fine. My DH and his sister were both raised on goats and Carnation milk due to severe allergies. DH's mum BF her eldest daughter successfully, that was it. She had no choice but to supplement with something else for her other two kids - allergies, in this instance, chose to take on Mother Nature and won.
BellyBelly Member
Muminalince- The tricky thing is breast is the best and natural thing and that is fact BUT with vaccines atm its ongoing trying to figure out what is the best. The conflicting info does my head in!
I think what the supermodel and many in here are trying to say is. Their is no argument with what is better ff vs bf, so if you can (again mentally, physically etc), why wouldn't you. kwim?
Registered User
from most of my grandparents generation, that i have spoken too - so lets not get semantic, none of them breastfed, most of them gave thier kids condensed milk or lactose powder. all of my aunts and uncles, and parents, were fed formula, and 40+ years on, they are all healthy middle aged adults. the same with my partners side. there are a million different lifestyle factors that can make someone sick throughout their lives, i hardly think we can blame it on being formula fed.
Registered User
Honestly, I don't think a lot of them feel guilty. I sure as hell don't when I give DD a FF. I'm feeding my child so she doesn't starve, why on earth would anyone feel guilty about that? You're not offering them a line of cocaine, it's a reputable source of infant food!
BellyBelly Member
"Think of it this way, the average glass of wine is around 10 - 12% alcohol. If you would drink one glass, there is no way your alcohol level would be equal to the beverage you drank. If that were the case, you'd most certainly drop over dead from poisoning. A mother who is 120 lbs who drank 2-3 glasses of wine over an hour would have an estimated blood alcohol content of between .06% to .10% alcohol. That's significantly less that 10-12%.
The same goes for your baby. If he would drink breastmilk that was .08% alcohol, his alcohol level would be far less than that."
From ABA...
Key points
• Breastfeeding is important for your baby’s physical
growth and emotional and mental development.
• You can have up to 2 standard drinks, but not every
day, once your baby is a month old.
• Breastfeed before you have alcohol.
• Eat before and while you are drinking.
• Plan ahead if you think you may occasionally have
more than 2 standard drinks.
• It is better to give a breastfeed with a small amount of
alcohol than to feed artificial baby milk.
• There are risks in feeding your baby artificial baby milk.
"Conclusion - What is best for baby?
The evidence suggests that for mothers who want to enjoy the odd drink, switching to bottle-feeding is not necessary and may deny your baby the benefits of breast milk.
"Breast milk from a mother, who has the occasional small glass of wine or half a pint of beer (the equivalent of one to two alcohol units) is still superior to formula milk, which does not contain all the immunological and other special properties we know breast milk has," says Wendy.
"If you know your boundaries with alcohol, there is no need to switch to formula," agrees Geraldine. "Just think of all the benefits your baby will be missing out on if you give up breastfeeding during the day - just so that you can have a glass of wine at night."
"Dr. Jack Newman, member of the LLLI Health Advisory Council, states that
"Reasonable alcohol intake should not be discouraged at all. As is the case with most drugs, very little alcohol comes out in the milk. The mother can take some alcohol and continue breastfeeding as she normally does. Prohibiting alcohol is another way we make life unnecessarily restrictive for nursing mothers."
Just some snippets on moderate drinking, there actually isn't that much on heavy drinkers...... but to be honest, with b/f numbers so so low, how many of them are alcoholics?? All the party/drinking girls i know use formula and babysitters, not b/f anyway, although of course there will be the odd exception.
With regards to "stoner" mums, I'll have to search more, but in reality, is that any worse than a cigarette smoking mother who b/f? And there are a lot of mums who do smoke and feed, even while b/f at the same time and blowing smoke ONTO their baby, and no one tells a smoker to not b/f.
It is damn hard to find good research!!!
Registered User
i guess the vibe of this thread is that these women are doing the wrong thing by using formula and a babysitter though - they should continue to bf regardless of that lifestyle choice. i think this is why so very many people are up in armsJust some snippets on moderate drinking, there actually isn't that much on heavy drinkers...... but to be honest, with b/f numbers so so low, how many of them are alcoholics?? All the party/drinking girls i know use formula and babysitters, not b/f anyway, although of course there will be the odd exception.
With regards to "stoner" mums, I'll have to search more, but in reality, is that any worse than a cigarette smoking mother who b/f? And there are a lot of mums who do smoke and feed, even while b/f at the same time and blowing smoke ONTO their baby, and no one tells a smoker to not b/f.
It is damn hard to find good research!!!
i doubt you will find much evidence based research - there are just too many variables to allow the "data" to be anything but flawed
Registered User
But what I meant was, if I was to go on there and say stuff like it was your social responsibilty to vaccinate, think of the burden on the health system if you don't vaccinate, it doesn't matter how the vaccines are made or what is in them you must vaccinate, if you don't vaccinate then your child will less intelligent and sicker then one who is. Would you agree with me or get a bit offended if you had made the decision that was right for you not to vaccinate?Muminalince- The tricky thing is breast is the best and natural thing and that is fact BUT with vaccines atm its ongoing trying to figure out what is the best. The conflicting info does my head in!
I think what the supermodel and many in here are trying to say is. Their is no argument with what is better ff vs bf, so if you can (again mentally, physically etc), why wouldn't you. kwim?
Registered User
There are alot of Mum's that DO feel guilty for feeding their babies formula and your right, they shouldn't, especially if they know they did everything they could to try to BF
Registered User
I agree. I never said it wasn't. I have used formula myself remember.
Registered User
Truly, this thread is going to go on forever.
and the funny thing is, we are all in frigging agreeance on the basic things that people are getting so damn up in arms about.
WE ALL KNOW BREAST IS WHAT NATURE INTENDED FOR AN INFANT. NOBODY HERE IS DISPUTING THAT.
The point of this bloody thread is that women have the RIGHT TO CHOOSE how they want to feed their child, without being condemned by others. especially mothers. for gods sake, everyday we all fight the battle of being the best mum we can be, why do we have to drag everyone down for not doing something we believe in?
Registered User
:yeahthat:
Bookmarks