In praise of the C-Section

[skeetaboat]

Kaz - of course, sorry if my words upset you and also that you had a traumatic experience What I was trying to say in my OP is that for many women, c/sections are a horrible experience because they just are a horrible experience for them, and for *some others* they are made a (more) horrible experience because they go into it expecting it to be, or they are suprised by a c-section & come out of it confused and as they read other people's feelings, those feelings become incorporated into their own interpretation of their own experience. I didn't mean to imply that pre-concieved ideas are the only factor in causing the bad experience - just that they *are* a factor, and quite possibly a big one for *some women*. If there was nothing bad about the experience, those ideas wouldn't stick or resonate, so I certainly didn't mean to imply that people feel bad about c-sections solely because they choose to be.

I think, essentially, we're saying a very similar thing:

I'm using my (very different) experience to illustrate that maybe pre-conceived ideas can set a woman up to feel additional (?unnecessary) disappointment/sadness when the outcome is a c-section but often the real, lived experience is bad irrespective of the woman's attitude to c-sections.

and

I don't think having one opinion or another is enough by itself to cause negative feelings.

But, I do believe that having that opinion can make it very difficult to have a positive c-section experience.

When all you read before you go into one is that c-sections are bad, then that's what's in your mind, and all the bad parts are more prominent to you than any of the good.

Maybe more of us need to post our positive c-section experiences so that there is a balanced range of experiences for new mothers to read. It doesn't really feel like they would be welcome here as it goes against the grain, but perhaps there is a need anyway. Afterall, some women are always going to have to face c-sections and it would be nice for them to know that it's not always horrid for everyone.

[Smoke Jaguar]

I didn't see the OP as 'informative', more just sharing an experience, actually. Which is great, anecdotally, just not as a piece of information. Sorry to split hairs
I liken it to abortion. You can't say that because your own experience in termination was traumatic and horrible that it must be that way for all women who experience termination...because, clearly, some women are liberated by it. They then feel guilty because they don't feel guilty!
For me, as long as the woman (delivering via c-section or having a termination) has not been disempowered by the event, it's just a thing that happened to achieve a result.
As Skeet said, there are women for whom an emerg c-section was the culmination of a hijacking of their values and sense of self-efficacy that could have been avoided.
There are women who will read this article and say "phew, so glad I read that, that's how I feel!" and there will be plenty more women who will think "good for her, I still feel majorly ripped off and angry about how I was treated and how it all happened". For example, I know someone who is due to give birth any day now who is going for a VBAC because she believes now that induction resulted in her having an emerg c-section and that testing for GBS set her up for this (realising in hindsight that what the doc told her about GBS was crap - that she'd have it for the rest of her pregnancy, not explaining that it's a very unreliable test)...so for this pregnancy she didn't even do the test for GBS, to avoid that cascade. She may end up with a c-section again, who knows? But at least she has controlled for all in her immediate power. So, for her, she realises that her pregnancy was unnecessarily medicalised.
But, sheesh, in the case of premature birth and other complications, who could say that medical intervention was unnecessary?
It IS a fact that interventions, however necessary DO interrupt a hormonal process and this messes with a woman's thinking and can affect her mothering. We are mammals. We are human animals with the capacity for self-recrimination and also for judgment of others. When it comes to birth and parenting, this is not a good mix!

[BellyBelly]

Maybe more of us need to post our positive c-section experiences so that there is a balanced range of experiences for new mothers to read. It doesn't really feel like they would be welcome here as it goes against the grain, but perhaps there is a need anyway.

This might be how you feel but that is not how it is. I've not received one complaint or joke or snigger at any member posting their caesarean birth stories which made them feel good. Us mods don't sit and have a ***** reading members caesarean birth stories in that forum, nor do we pick apart anyone's story. Seriously, if you had a great birth then the whole mod team are happy for you! It doesn't effect us, it's not our birth. But we all hope that you have a great one.

There is no grain that says women cannot post positive birth experiences no matter what form they come in. Someone's experience is just that, but we reserve the right to post when someone posts something that is not factually correct - i.e. the fallacy that having a c/s will preserve your pelvic floor - because we know from fact that its the weight of pregnancy that actually effects the pelvic floor, not vaginal birth in itself.

Afterall, some women are always going to have to face c-sections and it would be nice for them to know that it's not always horrid for everyone.

We know that also. I know a birth attendant I trained with who had a slow to progress footling breech which transferred to hospital and eventually decided on a c/s as there wasn't enough pressure on the cervix to get that labour going. As she was being wheeled into theatre, a foot popped out her vagina. I saw the photos, it was amazing... they put an epidural in for the c/s and the baby crashed badly and was in NICU after a fair bit of resus, it was very touch and go, but both were fine. After all that? She said she was grateful for the experience because she saw that c/s are not the end of the world as she thought it to be, it was very healing especially for someone who works in that field - it's all about your own thoughts and beliefs - she could have chosen to look at the birth another way. I'm not saying you can't grieve - I am sure she was in some degree of shock for a while there. But when thoughts dominate or take over what is reality, then it can be a problem.

So I do know of these examples, its one of many, I listened to her story intently and loved the pictures. I've seen other pictures and stories of maternal assisted c/s too. I have nothing against people sharing birth stories, and there is even a c/s birth story section on the main site. I invite any of you to share yours, I have no bias in publishing it on the main site and of course you can post it in the birth story forum as well.

[kirsty_lee]

I'm sorry but this may be a stupid question. How can you be liberated by having an abortion?

[BellyBelly]

Maybe they were raped KL. Or the baby was conceived in a very abusive relationship.

[Inanna]

But, I do believe that having that opinion can make it very difficult to have a positive c-section experience.

When all you read before you go into one is that c-sections are bad, then that's what's in your mind, and all the bad parts are more prominent to you than any of the good.

I have an opinion based on evidence that c/section is not the safest way to birth. I have an opinion based on evidence that due to the interference with the natural process surgical birth makes breastfeeding more likely to fail, PND rates are higher as are bonding/early parenting issues. I have that opinion because it is factual evidence.
That does not alter the fact that some women (myself included) require/d surgical birth.

Having birthed 5 times - the first was also a medicalised birth of which I suffered birth trauma for a good while. The next three were beautifully organic using water and midwifery care. My last birth was about as high tech as it could be...

The process of birth was taken away - through necessity - but nevertheless it was removed from both myself & my daughter. There is a missing part (for me) of her life. I didn't get to touch her or put her to my breast. I didn't get to scoop her up and push out our placenta. For me they are important.

My disappointment and period of grieving over that isn't because of other people's stories. I never once have read a birth story and thought : "I didn't do it right"... I did it the only way that was possible at that time (27+5 weeks with a hepatic hematoma).

We cannot inform women of the safety of birth, the trust and organic nature of birth for fear of those that choose or have no choice to have a c/section feel upset. Or yes, discuss the sacredness of birth with fear that those that do not see it as sacred will be offended. Some women eat their placentas - it's not for everyone but it is not offensive is it to read of a womans strong belief that it's an important part of the birthing process?

We only feel hurt or upset when a thought or opinion has touched a wound in ourselves. We can only be responsible for our own wounds as we all have them.

Yes, we can internalise the thoughts and ideals of others - we all do it. But hopefully then we have a process of working through that and deciding if they are our ideas or are they someone elses. What is our truth...

Now, for some women they will search and become informed and choose c/section. They will do so knowing the risks involved. Many women on BB choose to have a surgical birth. They do this. Nobody slings mud. Nobody berates them. Everyone wants to hear their story.

It simply isn't true that we don't want birth stories that are c/section ones. That is a womans story. Her journey. We want to hear it. Just because we may not choose it personally (though some Moderators do and have!) does not mean we don't honour and respect an indivicual womans journey.

[Inanna]

I can see how termination can be empowered. When a woman has again, weighed up her options, searched her own values, understood the procedure and outcome. And made an informed choice about her body and her life. That could be empowering for women.

[skeetaboat]

Perhaps I should clarify again.. eek! I don't feel inspired to post my positive c-section birth story because it goes against the BB philosophy and is very different to so many stories on this site. But that's just my own feelings - nothing to do with anything any specific any body has said. I'm sure if I did post it, there would probably be many people who were supportive, and I'm absolutely sure that no one would sling mud, etc But I still don't feel inspired to do it.. here, anyway. No offense intended or taken, that's just the way it is.

[BellyBelly]

Fair enough

[~Kaz~]

Kelly - Thankyou for posting that information about differentiation and personal growth. I have been thinking about some of those things already in regards to my experience and why I have held onto my negative feelings about it. There is much food for thought there for me. I know exactly what aspects of my personality and core beliefs have made it difficult for me to accept my experience. I do believe it will be a huge waste or tragedy (if I can use that word) if I went through what I did and I don't learn/change/grow for the better.

I just want to state that I know other people's posts or opinions or experiences can't make me feel anything. I choose my feelings. I am happy for others that have positive experiences of birth (regardless of how!), even though sometimes that's difficult for me to read. But that's about the headspace I'm in when I go into those threads.

Skeetaboat - hun your post didn't upset me. Thank you for your reply - it clarified for me what your message is and I think we do largely agree. In thinking about your words and my situation, I was very adament that I wasn't having a c-section. I thought sheer determination and an awareness of the 'casade' effect would be enough (how misguded huh?). I had a problem free pg until the last few days so to be labouring one minute and in theatre 20mins later was a shock. And I see what you're saying, even if my c-section had been complication free, I probably still would have struggled to accept it occurred (although not to the degree I do now).

FWIW I have read quite a few 'positive' c-section birth stories in my time on BB (although they didn't change my opinion that they are unnecessary and unacceptably risky except in medical emergency situations). I encourage you to share your (positive) story if you have one. Because I agree that they are not negative for everyone, as the OP and article outline.

Perhaps we should be getting away from the 'positive' vs. 'negative' spin on our 'stories' altogether? (myself included of course!). And just treat them as stories without judgement, taking only information and experience from them.

[slyder]

Perhaps we should be getting away from the 'positive' vs. 'negative' spin on our 'stories' altogether? (myself included of course!). And just treat them as stories without judgement, taking only information and experience from them.

Too right. As SB said, the whole grading and judgment of the birth process blows.

DW and I couldn't care less whether she has a vag birth or a c/s. Preferably a vag one because, well it's nature isn't it, but if on balance a c/s offers lower risk and a better outcome then we'll be doing that without hesitation. For us, the objective is as little risk as possible based on circumstances at the time, and the only focus is the babies at the end. This isn't a dig at anyone at all, but I can guarantee you that you won't be getting birth disappointment threads from either of us, whatever the method of birth.

[Lolli]

This isn't a dig at anyone at all, but I can guarantee you that you won't be getting birth disappointment threads from either of us, whatever the method of birth.

Not dissing you Slyder, but i would have said the exact same thing when I was pg the first time round. And yet i just posted ds's birth story in the dissapointment and trauma section the other day... Birth (however it happens) is a complicated process, and you just can't pick what will happen, or how you will feel about it in the aftermath.

[Jennifer13]

I had a very positive c/s and I posted my story here. I never felt guilty or that I was out of place on BB, for either having the c/s or posting my joy at how it all went. In my case, I had placenta praevia and despite my hopes that it would resolve, right up until the week before my DD was delivered, it did not. I had hoped for a natural birth and felt disappointed it couldn't happen that way. But I embrace my DD's birth and was very happy with the way it happened. Nobody has ever questioned that on BB.

I also am very pro-natural birth and I dearly hope for a homebirth for my next baby. So I think you can easily see both sides of the coin without having to be 'for' or 'against' in this debate. There are many, many women on here who have had both c/s and vbs or just one delivery method.

C/s are necessary - sometimes. I very much doubt they are necessary or could not be prevented (partly by women and their partners being better informed, which is what BB is about) for many of the steadily increasing percentage of mothers who are having them, but there is no doubt they are necessary in some cases.

I'd like to add that birth and the way it has happened is not just something that just stays with you for the day of delivery, or while your child is a newborn, or a baby, or whatever. For some women their birth experience may bring up issues (as for LoriRae) years later, with subsequent babies, or after health complications arise, or when their childbearing days come to an end.

[slyder]

Not dissing you Slyder, but i would have said the exact same thing when I was pg the first time round. And yet i just posted ds's birth story in the dissapointment and trauma section the other day... Birth (however it happens) is a complicated process, and you just can't pick what will happen, or how you will feel about it in the aftermath.

Agreed - I should clarify "disappointment" with respect to either vag or c/s - obviously there are stacks of other factors that occur during birth outside of the narrow focus I identified.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Slyder, I hope your DW DOES hesitate - 'without hesitation' is how many women get caught up in medical jargon for a procedure that has more benefits for the Ob than for anyone else. Hesitate, ask questions, THEN make your decision. If you take these three steps early on in the pregnancy you can mitigate being railroaded from your plan (whether the plan is for surgical or for physiological delivery, but particularly if the aim is for vaginal birth). Practicing this now will benefit your child.
Oh, and it's not just your baby - a baby's best chances are maintained if BOTH mother and baby are treated as a unit, not as separate entities. Separating them makes it easier for things to go awry. One affects the other. Oddly enough, by the logic of 'what's best for the baby' most people would forego a lot of interventions during labour that create the cascade leading to emergency c-sections.
Anyhoo, to answer the other question - yes, believe it or not, there are women who deal very well with their decision to terminate, just like the women who deal very well with the decision for elective c-section. That's my point. One group doesn't feel the need to take counselling for years to deal with the 'loss' because they didn't perceive loss, and one doesn't feel the need to debrief from birth trauma because they don't consider it 'trauma'. How can we judge either of them and say "but you should feel x and y"? I think this is what the author was saying - other people were imposing THEIR values on her and she didn't feel the need to take those values on. Good for her. Someone else might be swayed and feel sorrow or remorse later on, and that could only happen if they had only repressed those emotions at the time of the event.
I know that there are rape/incest victims who are quite conflicted about termination resulting from that kind of pregnancy - not liberated at all. Disempowered from the get go and are cornered by their own values and trauma rolled into one. And, tsk tsk, there are women who termiate knowing that pregnancy just isn't where they need to be at that time of their lives - not an easy thing to go through, but an easy enough decision to make. Odd world, huh?

[Billy Ocean]

Stretcher Bearer - to you for putting up this article and for voicing your opinions.

Sazz - hugs to you. I often felt that I was not "part of the club" when I couldn't breastfeed. Not the same topic yet the same overall feelings.

This thread and it's comments are a prime example of why myself a number of my friends (who I met on here) no longer frequent BellyBelly.

What a shame.

[Smoke Jaguar]

FWIW, I don't feel like anyone owes me an explanation of their decisions and choices. I just want people to be their own agents on not be railroaded by other people's agendas. I also want people to know the REAL array of risks (not just the ones wrapped in ribbons by medicos with lots of reasons not to have the woman's best interests at heart) before making choices, otherwise the 'choices' are hollow.
Billy Ocean - plenty of times I've been edged out of 'the club' for not taking drugs for birth...go figure!

[slyder]

Slyder, I hope your DW DOES hesitate - 'without hesitation' is how many women get caught up in medical jargon for a procedure that has more benefits for the Ob than for anyone else. Hesitate, ask questions, THEN make your decision. If you take these three steps early on in the pregnancy you can mitigate being railroaded from your plan (whether the plan is for surgical or for physiological delivery, but particularly if the aim is for vaginal birth). Practicing this now will benefit your child.
Oh, and it's not just your baby - a baby's best chances are maintained if BOTH mother and baby are treated as a unit, not as separate entities. Separating them makes it easier for things to go awry. One affects the other. Oddly enough, by the logic of 'what's best for the baby' most people would forego a lot of interventions during labour that create the cascade leading to emergency c-sections.
Anyhoo, to answer the other question - yes, believe it or not, there are women who deal very well with their decision to terminate, just like the women who deal very well with the decision for elective c-section. That's my point. One group doesn't feel the need to take counselling for years to deal with the 'loss' because they didn't perceive loss, and one doesn't feel the need to debrief from birth trauma because they don't consider it 'trauma'. How can we judge either of them and say "but you should feel x and y"? I think this is what the author was saying - other people were imposing THEIR values on her and she didn't feel the need to take those values on. Good for her. Someone else might be swayed and feel sorrow or remorse later on, and that could only happen if they had only repressed those emotions at the time of the event.
I know that there are rape/incest victims who are quite conflicted about termination resulting from that kind of pregnancy - not liberated at all. Disempowered from the get go and are cornered by their own values and trauma rolled into one. And, tsk tsk, there are women who termiate knowing that pregnancy just isn't where they need to be at that time of their lives - not an easy thing to go through, but an easy enough decision to make. Odd world, huh?

Yes, yes. Thankyou Maya.