At what point would you take a child to a doctor re behaviour?

[~clover~]

I had him assessed by an OT after DD's diagnosis, about 18 months ago. She didn't see anything strong enough to suggest SPD. But I did wonder.
DD2 is a sensory seeker & he seemed to be an avoider, but he's improved since living here. None of the stuff he was doing then happens now.

Maybe if DD3 would start sleeping through I could handle it a bit better. But DD3 does exactly the same crap, without the melt downs.

I can handle DD2. When she gets worked up & uncontrollable, the only answer is to be hard & tough. Its the only way she can snap herself out of it. DS can't, or won't. If he does stop it lasts all of 3 seconds & something else happens to start it all over again. But DD's melt downs are so rare in comparison. Today we had 3 or 4, because she had a sleep over, but the last one would've been a week or more ago. We have good weeks & bad weeks with her. With DS there are just bad weeks, with the rare good day :/


I did wonder about that when I had him assesed efjay. But his social interaction & everything else seems to be normal. He's not great with adults, won't speak to them, but with kids, he's completely normal. He used to avoid more than one on one with kids, but he's fine now.

Maybe I need to see someone different to the OT? Maybe I'll need to do psycologist or something instead...

[TaRhLi.]

Hugs Clover, I'm really struggling with my DS's who are almost 2 with many issues which their speech therapist has told me shows signs of ASD.

After our last session I told her about the behaviour issues I'm dealing with and the tantrums that can go on forever etc, she told me to go to the GP to get a Mental Health Plan for the boys so that they can see a Psychologist to assist with the behaviour - we have our apt this afternoon to get that started - maybe something you might want to ask your GP about. I'm also thinking about getting one done for me as well as I am at the stage already of needing to debrief and get stuff out of my head so maybe you might want to consider that option as well.

I hope you can get some answers soon as your instincts are telling you something needs to be done, so push to get him reviewed. Better to be told it is normal age appropriate behaviour than to keep letting it get so out of control.

[AndiE]

Maybe I need to see someone different to the OT? Maybe I'll need to do psycologist or something instead...

From my experience, you're best to work out what's going on with your DS before going to a psychologist. I went to see a psychologist last year when I felt I wasn't coping. We spoke about DS2 being a "perfectly normal toddler" with "perfectly normal" tantrums which he "needed to have in order to learn his boundaries". If I knew THEN what I know NOW about DS2 having SPD I think my psychology sessions would be very different.

Just a thought xx

[~clover~]

Well if not a psyc, I don't know who else to see. I've seen an OT & we did early intervention before we moved here. He's still very shy, but has com out of his shell a lot since living here. Neither the OT, or EI had any concerns.

Cass, I think I kind of agree. He does refuse to do things himself, because he doesn't feel he does it well enough. And he hates being dirty... so hates to wipe himself after the toilet, because he can't tell if he's clean or not.

I don't quite agree about the crying thing though. I know thats how most people perceive boys vs girls, but when the crying/melt downs are this excessive, it'd be seen as abnormal no matter what the gender of the child.

[Artechim]

Can you contact CAHMS and see if they have any assistance in your area? They should have some sort of outreach thing, or be able to refer you to someone in the area.

I have been there and you know in your own mind when it is more than normal tantrums.

Some of the things you mentioned sound very similar to my DS. Specific requests that must be followed, meltdowns over insignificant details etc. Long story short, my DS's problem seems to be anxiety. He was clingy and anxious since the day he was born. He was a walking ball of disaster prior to starting school when he turned 5 so we made a last minute decision to wait until the new year to start him. Thankfully it paid off for us and a lot of the things he was doing (mega meltdowns, compulsive licking, rituals, security items) have faded away almost completely now. He got himself so worked up about it all that even little tiny things were then enough to tip the apple cart. Not saying that is an issue with your son, just my experience. The mega tantrums just plain suck.

What is his behaviour like at school?

Basically you know him best and you know if something isn't right. Do you have any people that you see for your DD2? I understand the frustration of being in an isolated community, it really doesn't make it easy to access help the way the city folk could.

[Santosha]

From my experience, you're best to work out what's going on with your DS before going to a psychologist. I went to see a psychologist last year when I felt I wasn't coping. We spoke about DS2 being a "perfectly normal toddler" with "perfectly normal" tantrums which he "needed to have in order to learn his boundaries". If I knew THEN what I know NOW about DS2 having SPD I think my psychology sessions would be very different.

Just a thought xx

I'm sorry that you didn't have a helpful experience with a Psych Andie, and this is certainly a possibility to consider when seeking advice from anyone - that they might make errors in their assessment. But I don't think it's fair to assume that this would happen with all psychs or that you should not approach one until you have a diagnosis in mind yourself. In fact, the latter can be problematic for an objective assessment too. Having informed questions and details of developmental history, behaviours, triggers, methods already tried and their impact... should be sufficient to assist a psych in making a thorough assessment and ruling in or out disorder or disability. It sounds to me like this behaviour seems above and beyond what's typical and manageable to you Clover. Which makes it more than 'enough' to pursue answers and support. It sounds exhausting and demoralising and I really hope that you get a good referral from your GP or connections through the school and some much needed and deserved support for you and your little guy. Sending you much love in the mean time.

[~clover~]

Arte - he's much the same at school. He will loose it if something doesn't go the right way, but is usually worse when I'm around, because he feels safe with me I think. he doesn't face to face interact with adults, including his teachers. He is ok in group situations, but not one on one. More so with females. He's a bit more comfortable with men (thats why I think this year is a little less traumatic, he has a male teacher).

At the start of the year he had swimming through school. It was a mess :/ He screamed for the entire lesson, twice a day for 8 days. But I don't know what to do. He needs to learn how to swim. He needs to get his confidence up. They DIDN'T push him beyond his level of comfort, but they did try little steps, just to get him a little further. The swim instructors have now done an advanced course that has shown them how to deal with this & go back to absolute basics, as if they were starting out with a 6 month old. They've decided this is what they need to do with him.

He has started licking his hands, to wipe his nose, with his odd need to be clean. I think it may be hay fever, but he used to have a dirty mark on his nose because it was always just a bit runny. He licks his hand before he wipes now to prevent it :/

I have asked about DD seeing an OT through the school, but didn't hear anything more about it.I didn't push any further either. She is now medicated & has made amazing improvements, so I've stopped worrying about OT etc now. Because she's finally learning & that was our biggest challenge. She still has moments where she struggles with every day life, but we work through it the best we can with what the OT at home gave us.

And I am wondering again if moving here was a bad decision :/ But other people in isolated area's face similar problems & get by, I'm sure we can too. Maybe...

[Artechim]

What do you think is going on? Gut feeling.

[~clover~]

Every idea I had was shot down by the OT & we didn't spend enough time in EI I don't think to really get anywhere.

I wonder about ADHD, but while there's no lack of concentration that I know of, it can't really be can it? There is ODD (which he could possibly fall under), but I haven't read anything about that in a long time, so forget the majority of symptoms. And know he's way too young for diagnosis.

I've been putting it down to being stuffed around by his father when we saw him last, but that was 3 months ago. He spent 2 days with him, the girls only got a few hours. I still think a lack of male interaction is a huge part of what ever this is. There is no way the relationship with his father will change though :/

Also there's the 3 years he was taught to treat me like crap. I'm sure his father said some fabulous things while he had him. He let him break all our rules. Allowed him to swear, let him drink most of a box of coke, & probably told him not to listen to me. I did get 'but dad paid for it' attitude for a long time after. He certainly did not pay for ANYTHING in this house except the damn TV. The car isn't paid for! So there is that awesome influence!!

I'm just tired. Over the crying and the disrespect from him. He's 5. I don't even know how he could possibly process his fathers bull**** & put it into words/actions the way he does.

[Artechim]

It must be so much harder having a crap ex to deal with as well, and you are right that it will take some time and a lot of effort to undo that influence present in his early years. Not sure how to deal with that. Are there parenting agencies that might have someone that you could talk to about techniques for moving forward? Has he been doing the annoying/crying/tantrums thing always or just since he got back from his fathers?

Are there any agencies in your area? First step would be contacting them. They will be able to tell you if it is some sort of acronym disorder or a behaviour issue. Before you go, make sure you write down what is happening so they have notes to work from.

I really feel for you. I always seem to be replying in your threads - we both won the bad sleeper captain tantrum lottery. It sucks the life out of you.

[Harri]

I'm so sorry you are going through this!! They sure know how to push buttons don't they?!

Something tells me that you might be onto something re your ex here and I think that the issue is with adult figures...I don't know anything about your personal life etc when you where with your partner, but do you think it's a possibility that this all stems from that?

5 year olds are a lot smarter and perceptive than we sometimes give them credit for!.. Most will also take any opportunity to manipulate situations with a higher level of endurance than we have!... mine included! It is possible that he thinks that behaving this way is "OK"...or that he can get away with it, so it continues?!.. Dealing with all this on your own is hard and you shouldn't have to, maybe go to your GP again.. or another if the current one isn't being very helpful, have you tried the Maternal and Child health nurse?! Explain what you THINK may be the issue.. and see what they think?!

[AndiE]

I'm sorry that you didn't have a helpful experience with a Psych Andie, and this is certainly a possibility to consider when seeking advice from anyone - that they might make errors in their assessment. But I don't think it's fair to assume that this would happen with all psychs or that you should not approach one until you have a diagnosis in mind yourself. In fact, the latter can be problematic for an objective assessment too. Having informed questions and details of developmental history, behaviours, triggers, methods already tried and their impact... should be sufficient to assist a psych in making a thorough assessment and ruling in or out disorder or disability. It sounds to me like this behaviour seems above and beyond what's typical and manageable to you Clover. Which makes it more than 'enough' to pursue answers and support. It sounds exhausting and demoralising and I really hope that you get a good referral from your GP or connections through the school and some much needed and deserved support for you and your little guy. Sending you much love in the mean time.

I apologise if what I said has inferred I thought seeing a psychologist wasn't a good idea or that I had a bad experience. It's not what I meant. I didn't have a bad experience, and I did learn coping strategies. But I do think discussions I had with the psych would have been different, and I'd think the strategies we talked through for me to put into practice would be more in sync with what is going on with DS2 had I'd known his diagnosis first. I just think that in hindsight I'd have got far more out of the sessions if I'd had the full picture. I'd certainly not try and dissuade Clover from seeking whatever help she or her son may need. I can only speak from the experience I've had which may - or may not - be helpful.

Clover I wish you all the best. As I first said, I do get where you're coming from. We have different circumstances, sure, but feeling completely beaten down by your child (my words), is a feeling I know well.

[myturn]

Maybe getting him assessed formally by a psych and/or paed is the first step. Then appropriate strategies can be discussed and the professionals know you and your child's needs best. This would solve Andies concerns. I guess, I too, worry about going in with a preconception about what is happening for your child, because it takes a long time to learn how to identify these issues in children properly, and you don't want to jump to a diagnosis unless it is appropriate. By trying to get your head around what is happening first like andie suggests, you might go down a misleading path and things get equally as confused and off track as if you hadn't got things figured out.

I guess I perceive it as if you are struggling and feeling like you can't cope, it's best to get help earlier. Also early intervention is always the best option for supporting children. (And even adults with any sort of issue - the earlier we treat things the better the outcome!!)

but maybe speaking to your GP will give you advice of where to go first?? Also you might be able to access Medicare or a public assessment service if that's what you need to help cover the costs associated.

sorry it's feeling so hard, I do hope you can get things sorted and feel better about what's happening for you xx

[~clover~]

Thanks all

I don't have many male role models around, no. My brother is here & is a great role model, but he owns a business & is working basically 6am - 8pm 7 days a week. And he has his own family, young BIL he & SIL are raising & a wife who isn't much keen on sharing :/

My dad comes & goes at the moment. He isn't a bad role model, but he has his moments that borderline abuse when he goes off about what ever he chooses to exaggerate. He takes DS to help change oil in cars & stuff when he's aroud & can, but it doesn't happen a lot. They're busy working away too. And mum & dad don't even live here. They are only here for work, but they do their best to help out. Dad can't handle him when he carries on though. He's diagnosed ADHD himself, but he doesn't get DS or DD2. Its hard

I have a friend who's aspy DS was diagnosed just through a psyc. The OT didn't really discount that there was something going on with him, just not something she could help with/diagnose. No issues with motor skills etc.

I'll ask the school to get a school councillor in. That's where we started with DD. He's in pre primary at school (kindy over east) & interacts well with all the other kids. He used to only do one on one, but that's changed since he started 4yo kindy last year. Then with that report I might head to the gp & find out what there is available here.

I didn't much like the OT we saw for DD2. She used up our EPC, then even though we also had the mental health care plan, she just kind of cut us off. Gave us a few coping strategies for when we moved away (a good 8 weeks later), but never used the MHCP, or even offer us sessions at full price. She did question DS's clingyness at our first session though. Basically said he has attatchment issues. I might get a better experience from someone else...

[Artechim]

How are things going? Any luck contacting any help?