Channel 7's 'Sunday Night' - To Snip or Not to Snip?

[Just Me]

This is why I don't buy into the decreased sexual pleasure argument, because as I said above, the only way to really test that theory would be to get a whole heap of men, get them to rate their experience of sexual pleasure, circumcise them, and then do the survey again. I don't think you'd get many volunteers...

I think a study like this would have major flaws anyway - suffering a trauma to the penis as an adult would probably have an impact on the sexual experience (for a time anyway) so it would be impossible to tell either way. I suppose it is a bit like many women after child birth need time to recover and it can take some patience to feel completely comfortable sexually again and childbirth can impact the sexual experience (for a time anyway). I suppose this would make the distinction between sexual experience before circ and after circ a little difficult to compare. Just my opinion though

On a different note . . .

As for the cost of the procedure - in Townsville there is only one doctor who will perform circumcisions. I think it cost us about $250 (it may have been up to about $300 but I can't remember exactly how much it was) and we got about $100 back from medicare. I thought for an elective procedure that was a fairly reasonable price.

[Freya]

TVillegirl - he did my son too just recently. We paid $300 and got $100 back.

[Happydad]

Ok I'd like to weigh in here with a few comments from a male perspective. First and foremost this is one debate and decision that will never go away or change, in my opinion. There will always be people who will circumcise and those who don't. There will be professionals in the medical field looking to prove its worth and those who will always find counter arguments to denounce the practice. At the end of the day it's purely a decision that the parents of the child will make and most importantly, it's only those 2 parents who need to be comfortable with the decision. Their baby, their choice, really it's no one elses business.

As an intact man I would like to say that when people get offended over the comments that circumcising is mean and cruel and barbaric etc need to be a little bit careful as to how they justify their decision word wise. By that I mean if you say it's cleaner, it looks better, it's more attractive, it's healthier etc then have you considered how those comments make the intact men of this world feel? Are you aware that over the years many men have had themselves circumcised as an adult because they felt less of a man for having a natural body part attached to their penis and felt like they couldn't be with a woman unless they were circumcised? I can say from personal experience that during high school many intact boys in the change room had issues with getting their clothes off to change into clean clothing simply because their peers would ridicule them for having a body part that was simply given to him at birth. What makes me wonder here is why do the circumcised boys feel the need to do this? Personally I think it's because the perception that intact men were dirty, unsexy, gross etc was instilled into the children and that if you weren't circumcised then you weren't a 'real' man. Thankfully many mums these days are more well informed and are teaching their kids to accept everyone for who they are and one is not better than the other. That's how it should be.

As far as the choice goes, no you are not barbaric for choosing circumcision for your son but I'll never accept that a circumcised penis is healthier/cleaner than an intact one. If neither are washed properly they can both get a bit funky. Bit like a woman really, if you don't wash regularly things can get a bit funky down there. Actually I do sometimes wonder if there's a subconscious link between womens knowledge on the necessity to stay clean personally and the desire to circumcise their boys. Something along the lines of it's a bugger of a thing for me to do but I can atleast offer my son a low maintenance penis, or at least that would be the perception. The other thing I wonder is with all these studies going around about the inner foreskin being a perceived easy entry zone for disease, have they done any similar studies on the inner lining of a vagina? They are made up of the same tissue afterall.....

Another line of reasoning I'd like to address is 'I'd rather him look like his peers' . What the hell does it matter? Circumcised, intact, black, white, whatever you are, it's you as a person not what your body looks like that matters. Mums, Dads, if you feel more comfortable raising your son with a circumcised penis then so be it, that is the most important thing at the end of the day, how comfortable you feel raising that boy. Conversely those who choose not to are doing it for the same reasons. The medical world can't agree one way or another so who are we to say it's better or it's not? We can't. Simple. (remember we are talking preventative neonatal circumcision here not medically indicated necessary circumcision)

If your child asks you mum/dad why do I have skin there and my mate doesn't? Simple answer is some mums and dads get a doctor to remove it when a baby is little because they like it better that way. We don't think it's important and so we didn't do it to you. No way is better than the other, you are all great little boys. Feel free to disagree with me but with an answer like that a boy doesn't feel like he's inferior or superior to any other boy and is comfortable with his own body. To me that is what's most important.

Just so you know I have 2 boys and neither are circumcised. I'm not, I'm healthy, have never had an STD, HIV, HPV, UTI (that I remember) or any serious complications with having a foreskin and I've had it for nearly 31 years. No that wasn't the only reason my boys stayed intact, their mother vehemently claimed that no son of hers was going to be circumcised EVER! Even with family and health professional pressure to do it because 'it's better for him' she resisted. No I don't flame people for doing it, it's their baby, not mine, who am I to tell them what's right and wrong? If they ask me what I think I'll tell them but that's simply an opinion not a judgemental comment personally directed at an individual.

I apologise if this is a bit long but after reading a few threads on the topic I felt it was necessary to raise a few viewpoints for those who were undecided to mull over. You are never a bad parent for making this decision whichever way you go. No way is right or wrong, yes you may come across those who think you have done something bad or denied your son a life long benefit, but at the end of the day they aren't the parents of your son and their opinions are just that, opinions.

Ok there's my take on the topic. Hope it's been interesting and if not I'm sorry you had to endure the read.

[Inertia]

but on the topic of Circumcision, we had to get our 9 yo son done at teh begining of teh year, as his mother never taught him how to clean it, retract it properly so at 9 his foreskin was only 30% retracted when it should be around 80%, he continually wet the bed, had a constant niggling UTI which couldnt be fixed with medication,

Well, I can't say I would put the blame on her shoulders. No one told me that I had to teach my boys to or how to clean it. No one told me that they should or how to retract it. I still don't know, and at the moment the only information I have is - only the penis owner should clean it, so I get my 3yo to clean it himself with a baby wipe when changing a nappy.. But if they aren't going to routine circ anymore, wouldn't this information be important to tell new mums of boys at the hospital?

DH didn't know any of this either because he is circ'd. Believe me, it was utterly disturbing to find out 10 years later that I have done it all wrong with TWO of my boys... I still don't know if I am getting it right because the only information I can ever find is "leave it up to the penis owner".

[Rouge]

Interesting because my understanding (through medical advice) was you weren't supposed to retract it until it happened naturally (through fiddling and what not) and it should pretty much clean itself, otherwise you can actually do damage. And if it doesn't thats often when intervention is needed ie. circ. So I'm unsure (like inertia) if any blame should be placed.

[boomba]

Interesting because my understanding (through medical advice) was you weren't supposed to retract it until it happened naturally (through fiddling and what not) and it should pretty much clean itself, otherwise you can actually do damage. And if it doesn't thats often when intervention is needed ie. circ. So I'm unsure (like inertia) if any blame should be placed.

thats what i have researched to. We will be leaving ds to retract naturally! I have read sometimes it doesnt retract fully untill sexually active.

Its a tough descion with so many different studies and opinions, I think you have to either make a choice or leave to the owner of the penis to make the choice, But definitely tough!

[New Dawn]

but on the topic of Circumcision, we had to get our 9 yo son done at teh begining of teh year, as his mother never taught him how to clean it, retract it properly so at 9 his foreskin was only 30% retracted when it should be around 80%, he continually wet the bed, had a constant niggling UTI which couldnt be fixed with medication, he didnt clean it even after being educated by my husband, drs and myself, he couldnt hold onto his wee because off teh constant infection and we had many accidents, at 9 you could imagine how embarressing this would of been for him. he caused social issues as we were confident in him sleeping at friends houses, or going on long trips with friends as he couldnt control his bladder properly.
yet 5 months later, hardly wets the bed, only after stressfull situations like talking to his mother, we can now go on long drives as he can hold his wee if he needs to till we get to a toilet, the rush and instant need to wee has gone, he is more confident as he is worried about wetting himself or his bed.

As you know I too have a 9 yr old son, his skin still doesnt go all the way back like I said in a post before.... we have been told this is quite normal still at this age and not to forse it back that they come back on there own.... he has never had any UTI or wet his bed because his skin doesnt go all the way back...

He is a 9 yr old boy so I do have to remind him to give it a clean to move the skin as much as it can go... yes he hates to do it, tells me it hurts and I am sure he doesnt do it everytime he goes into the bath, but if I keep reminding him that he has too then I hope one day his skin will just go all the way back like we have been told it should do...

I am neither for or against I think its upto every parent to choose this for them selves, its not something that should be enterted into lightly ( as I would have done if I got DS the snip if I could have found someone to do it at the time )...

just wanted to say thatnks for the wonderful post Happy Dad, it was great seeing something from a entire male... I would also like to say sorry, for any comments I might have made about the look of the skin...

On a side note I watched a show on SBS a few weeks ago about the penis and there was a guy on that how was streaching his skin over the head of his penis to make himself whole again...

[Just Me]

This is neither in favour of circ or against it but I found this interesting - a relative of mine works at the emergency department of a hospital and had a 20y.o. male come in because his 'penis is broken'. After examination and talking to the guy, he had sex for the first time and did not realise his foreskin retracted and completely flipped out. He thought he had broken it. Apparently he was a well dressed, well educated person. He had good hygiene (mostly) but no-one had bothered to educate him. I found it a bit sad.

I am not using this to advocate circ - I just found it interesting that a 20 y.o. male did not understand his own anatomy.

[Beautitude]

Interesting because my understanding (through medical advice) was you weren't supposed to retract it until it happened naturally (through fiddling and what not) and it should pretty much clean itself, otherwise you can actually do damage. And if it doesn't thats often when intervention is needed ie. circ. So I'm unsure (like inertia) if any blame should be placed.

:yeahthat: I too have been told just to leave the penis and that no special care is required. DH foreskin doesn't retract very much either and he has never had any issues with it. I was quite suprised when i bought up the topic with dh before ds was born and he considered it. I was sure that he would be against the idea but he said that an ex had told him that it was ugly and he would consider having ds circumcised. I didn't want to do it (I personally see no need unless it is necessary) and we didn't but i found it interesting coming from a VERY manly man that he has had someone say something that horrible to him to make him consider it for his own son. I agree with everything happydad wrote, we all look different to one another, why do all men have to have the same looking penis? Just my two cents....

[Happydad]

I also look at it this way. If all the men in the world had the same type of penis, how boring would it be? Where's the surprise? Where's the difference in experience etc. Just makes the world a weird and wonderous place at the end of the day.

And on a lighter note.....what's the useless piece of skin attached to the end of a penis called?






The Man!

[Happydad]

double post, sorry

[Roryrory]

Happydad - great post

[Bathsheba]

I also think you posted some great points HappyDad Although I differ from your wife and have become a bit more accepting about possible circumcision for my 5yo. He has phimosis (foreskin too tight) and we are using a medicated cream (cortisone) to loosen it at the moment because DH and I don't want circumcision for our boys.... but we might not have much choice He already is complaining of discomfort. (I was wondering what you would do in my situation). So whilst I agree with 99% of what you wrote I thought to myself that it sometimes pays to avoid this:

"their mother vehemently claimed that no son of hers was going to be circumcised EVER!"

I find that in life the minute you make a stance about something you will ultimately be challenged... it just seems to work that way.

Otherwise great post!

[Madissun]

I loved reading your post...Thanks HappyDad

[Happydad]

Bathsheba, in your situation we would of course look at every avenue possible before making the right decision. If it comes down to circumcision or a lifetime of discomfort then we would do what is in the best interest of our son. To do it just in case seems a little pre emptive for me. Each to their own of course.