... 34567

thread: Channel 7's 'Sunday Night' - To Snip or Not to Snip?

  1. #73
    Administrator
    Add Rouge on Facebook

    Jun 2003
    Ubiquity
    9,922

    I don't really want to get into a debate about debates. But if it were just members "asking" for new information I could understand. But often threads like this (and I am talking specifically about circ) turn into posts that bag out parents that have chosen to circ. Thats my point. And you may not agree and thats ok We are all allowed to agree to disagree, but from my perspective as a parent who circ's I think it goes past the point of being informative and becomes about who's right which isn't what the discussion needs to be about. I think once you've put your information forward great but why the need to continually argue your point? Especially when you are arguing with someone who will never be able to agree with you. See where I'm going?

  2. #74
    Registered User

    Dec 2005
    In Bankworld with Barbara
    14,222

    Just want to point out that there aren't too many archived threads about this issue as they usually get pulled if the Mod team feels that the thread is no longer constructive. There are a few that have remained however. I think if it were to be brought up as a topic of adult and mature discussion where both sides respected the choices that each person makes and that relates to something that was in the paper or on the TV then by all means it should be posted about (for example if the discussion was about mandatory circumcision etc). If you don't like the content, you can simply choose to ignore the thread.

  3. #75
    Registered User

    Dec 2005
    4,840

    I don't really want to get into a debate about debates. But if it were just members "asking" for new information I could understand. But often threads like this (and I am talking specifically about circ) turn into posts that bag out parents that have chosen to circ. Thats my point. And you may not agree and thats ok We are all allowed to agree to disagree, but from my perspective as a parent who circ's I think it goes past the point of being informative and becomes about who's right which isn't what the discussion needs to be about. I think once you've put your information forward great but why the need to continually argue your point? Especially when you are arguing with someone who will never be able to agree with you. See where I'm going?
    TBH I think if it was a thread saying "Im thinking of circumcising my son - WDYT?" then stating your case and moving on is fine. Its when it is a discussion like this, or when someone is being terrified by the use of words like 'child abuse' 'barbaric' etc then there needs to be some form of "argument" as such.

    Im quite impressed with this thread and I hope the mods keep it. I think the issues been discussed relatively maturely. I did say to my Dh last night after watching the SN segment that I would be very curious to see if there was a thread on it and how heated it would get

  4. #76
    Registered User

    Mar 2005
    Sydney, NSW
    3,352

    I was always going to NOT circumcise if I had a boy. So I've got my boy, and the little man had a UTI and now has kidney problems. The jury is out as to whether circumcision would stop the UTI's, but if I am told it is going to help, I'll get it done in a second. Amazing how one's mind can change so quickly! But I would prefer my son to have the snip rather than be sick on and off for many years.
    I might not have a choice, his kidney's might be too damaged already.
    But it did get me to wondering why it's not still common practice, as most males I've spoken to (and mothers) who have been or had sons been circumcised, dont have UTI's or kidney reflux.
    So Im willing to do it, if the need arises, and we'll find out in the next few weeks. I think we're lucky to have the option and even though I was against it, I never judged someone else for their choice. And now more so than ever, I wouldn't assume anything as people have different reasons for all sorts of things. xo

  5. #77
    Registered User

    Jan 2005
    Down by the ocean
    6,110

    I'll just quote Liz cos she said what I was going to cept for the" if I have any" bit

    I also saw this program and in my opinion(and thats all it is) i will not have my sons(if i have any)circumsized. my hubby isn't and he has never had an issue with it. he always says that he was taught to clean his penis and that was that. this is always going to be a controversial issue and i believe that everyone has the right to choose whether or not to circumsize their boys

  6. #78
    Registered User
    Add NaeNae on Facebook

    Sep 2007
    South Gippsland
    3,753

    I am really sorry I missed the show on this as its something DH have started (only just) thinking about.

    I am a fence sitter to be completely honest and can see both sides for their opinions.

    My brother was done at 2yrs and the dr or whoever did the circ stuffed it up somehow and I remember him screaming in pain for days. mum and dad took him back in to be redone. He doesn't remember it.

    I don't like the idea of the procedure being done without some pain relief though even if the baby does not remember it. I think that every parent has a right to choose whats best for their baby and I think if you choose to have it done, getting it done earlier has to be better than trying to get it done later.

    NN x

  7. #79
    Registered User

    Mar 2008
    North Northcote
    8,065

    TBH I think if it was a thread saying "Im thinking of circumcising my son - WDYT?" then stating your case and moving on is fine. Its when it is a discussion like this, or when someone is being terrified by the use of words like 'child abuse' 'barbaric' etc then there needs to be some form of "argument" as such.

    Im quite impressed with this thread and I hope the mods keep it. I think the issues been discussed relatively maturely. I did say to my Dh last night after watching the SN segment that I would be very curious to see if there was a thread on it and how heated it would get
    so true! Also DH and i also had the same thought LOL!

  8. #80
    Registered User

    Sep 2008
    City of the swinging pig WA
    371

    it will be interesting to see what the medical community think in regards to uncircumcised males being more prone to disease than circumcised males. I was always told that anyone can get any STD if they are having sex unprotected, now we are being told otherwise.I cant imagine that uncircumcised or circumcised would determine whether a man would be more likely to get HIV? just seems like scare tactics to me. TV journos really need some concrete proof before reporting such things IMO

  9. #81
    Registered User

    Dec 2005
    In Bankworld with Barbara
    14,222

    There is NEVER any need for an argument. If anyone feels that they are being persecuted by someone elses choice of language, then we have appropriate channels to deal with that off the forums. But that said, there is also NEVER any need to be deliberately provocative and those found to be doing so will be dealt with.

  10. #82
    Registered User

    Dec 2005
    4,840

    it will be interesting to see what the medical community think in regards to uncircumcised males being more prone to disease than circumcised males. I was always told that anyone can get any STD if they are having sex unprotected, now we are being told otherwise.I cant imagine that uncircumcised or circumcised would determine whether a man would be more likely to get HIV? just seems like scare tactics to me. TV journos really need some concrete proof before reporting such things IMO
    I think its more that germs can get caught inside the foreskin I think. A little less hygenic maybe but its certainly not an indication that circ'ed men dont EVER get STDs or infections etc

    NaeNae- the boys had local anaesthetic so no pain during or for awhile after the procedure and it was at my disgression whether they had any ongoing pain relief ie nurofen/panadol but they tend to now need it from my experience.

  11. #83
    Registered User

    Jul 2005
    Rural NSW
    6,975

    Just wanted to add that I am heartened to hear positive stories of successful and minimal pain circumcisions for older men. Like I said: we plan to have our DS cut if it is medically necessary... a similar situation to Tali's son. Having my son cut as a very young baby "just in case" he needs it to me would be the same as surgically removing everyones appendix incase it got infected. Ok so he will have some pain associated with it, like I did after my appendix removal. At the moment he is sometimes upset that it is uncomfortable when he tries to pull the skin back... he has already said that he wouldn't mind the doctor "fixing" it. I said to him that the doctor might have to cut a small bit of skin... and he nodded that he would be ok with it. I think I feel better about knowing that he at least understands what might happen and that he seems to agree that it might be necessary. I'm really grateful that there is a forum to discuss this issue. It's not something that you can comfortably raise at playgroup for example.
    Last edited by Bathsheba; May 25th, 2009 at 01:27 PM.

  12. #84
    Registered User

    Jul 2005
    Rural NSW
    6,975

    Double Post

  13. #85
    Registered User

    Dec 2007
    Taking a ride on my grdonkey :D
    2,716

    ^ I'm so with you on that last statement, Bathsheba... in my time here on BB I have found the vast, vast majority of members to 'play fair' when it comes to difficult topics such as this one, which is why I appreciate so much the wealth of information from both sides of fences on various topics - there is a lot less judgement, disapproval and condemnation from others when a subject is raised and opinions are discussed. Unlike in the 'real world' where a parent often finds themselves being made to feel as though they are constantly doing the wrong thing, no matter what choice they make, kwim?

  14. #86

    Mar 2004
    Sparta
    12,662

    ahh well if the public wants wordy posts...
    it will be interesting to see what the medical community think in regards to uncircumcised males being more prone to disease than circumcised males. I was always told that anyone can get any STD if they are having sex unprotected, now we are being told otherwise.I cant imagine that uncircumcised or circumcised would determine whether a man would be more likely to get HIV? just seems like scare tactics to me. TV journos really need some concrete proof before reporting such things IMO
    There is plenty of concrete evidence that circumcision reduces transmission of HIV and other STDs.

    These articles are from New Scientist

    Male circumcision: A contentious cut
    23 November 2006

    Andy Coghlan

    "THERE are already queues of men demanding circumcision," says Mark Stirling, regional director of UNAIDS for Eastern and Southern Africa. His team has been investigating how to help African governments meet this sudden and unexpected surge in demand for male circumcisions.

    Last week, Swaziland became the first African country to make voluntary circumcision more widely available, eventually hoping to offer it to any man who is sexually active. Another four - Lesotho, Zambia, Tanzania and Kenya - have already consulted the public on the issue and are deciding whether to follow suit.

    So why are African men swarming to volunteer for a painful procedure that faces growing opposition in countries such as the US - where it has been practised routinely for decades - principally because of claims that it blunts sexual pleasure (see "To snip or not to snip").

    The reason is a welter of new evidence suggesting that circumcision protects men against HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases. A study published this month showed that in a group of 510 men from Christchurch, New Zealand, who were followed from birth to age 25, cases of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including syphilis, could have been cut by half had they been circumcised at birth (Pediatrics, vol 118, p 1971).

    The most robust evidence that circumcision cuts transmission of HIV came from a study of more than 3000 men living in Orange Farm township near Johannesburg, published last year. Volunteers who were newly circumcised at the outset of the study were 60 per cent less likely than uncircumcised men to be infected with HIV (New Scientist, 29 October 2005, p 5).

    "It means that if you have 10 infections in a group of men, you'd get only four infections if they had been circumcised," says lead author Bertran Auvert of the University of Versailles in France. The results were so stunning that the trial was halted early to let uncircumcised volunteers receive surgery too.

    ?The results were so stunning that the trial was halted early to let uncircumcised volunteers receive the treatment too?
    By mid-December, interim results should be in from two similar studies in Kenya and Uganda to see if the benefits can be replicated elsewhere in Africa. Panels at the US National Institutes of Health will check the results - unknown even to the researchers themselves so far - to judge if they are so unequivocally positive that these trials too should be halted early to offer circumcision to everyone.

    Other African countries considering routine circumcision are holding fire till these results from Kenya and Uganda are in. But ever since the publication of the Orange Farm study, UNAIDS (the Joint UN Programme on HIV/AIDS) has been anticipating huge increases in demand for the procedure and working feverishly to draft background information, guidance and advice to governments who want to offer it more widely. Currently, around two-thirds of African men get circumcised for cultural reasons, either at birth or puberty, but the remaining third are often in the belts of southern Africa worst affected by HIV.

    However, the concept remains controversial for several reasons. Few countries in Africa presently have the facilities or staff to meet a huge surge in demand for male circumcisions, which until now have largely been carried out by tribal leaders. The procedure can sometimes result in fatal bleeding, cross-infection or even accidental amputation of part of the penis - especially if not performed by trained medical practitioners.

    For this reason, UNAIDS is making safety top priority for countries considering such programmes, and has drafted guidance on the logistics and surgical options, as well as legal and ethical advice. "We're concerned we don't give opportunities for quacks and charlatans to injure and mutilate young men," says Stirling.

    ?We're concerned we don't give opportunities for quacks and charlatans to injure and mutilate young men?
    This week it presented its latest advice to interested governments at a meeting in Nairobi, Kenya. The gathering was intended to help them decide whether circumcision is likely to prove acceptable, whether they can afford it, or whether alternatives such as more free condoms would work better. Other countries considering such programmes include South Africa, Mozambique and Botswana.

    "We're not trying to stampede any countries into a particular policy, but to look at what suits them," says Catherine Hankins, chief scientific adviser to UNAIDS. Practical options might include mobile clinics, for example, or equipping hospitals to carry out the procedure, while allowing traditional practitioners to manage ceremonial aspects.

    Aside from the surgical risks, there are other hazards to consider. The most serious is "disinhibition", the possibility that circumcised men may overestimate the protection it provides from HIV, forsaking other methods of defence such as condoms and having fewer sexual partners. Using fewer condoms would pose an even greater risk for women, who already account for the majority of Africans infected with HIV (see Chart). UNAIDS says it is vital that this doesn't happen, and believes men need to be educated about the risks. "Circumcision doesn't mean any less emphasis on condom use or partner reduction," says Stirling.

    If countries do decide to introduce circumcision programmes, it will have to be done with great political and social care and sensitivity, adds Hankins. "Countries will need to know what proportion of their population is already circumcised, what the current complication rates are, who's doing the procedure and what people's attitudes to it might be."

    In Kenya, for example, 80 per cent of men are circumcised, but not members of the large Luo tribe. Their attitudes must be taken into account if voluntary circumcision programmes are to meet their goal of cutting HIV infections. "We're trying to assist countries to be ready for decision making for what they want to do," says Hankins. "But there's no single solution."

    Meanwhile, researchers are debating whether the findings in Africa strengthen the case for circumcision to help halt HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases in western countries. Last week the UK's Health Protection Agency warned of a dramatic increase in cases of syphilis, while HIV and other STDs are also on the rise. Auvert doubts that there is a strong case. "All these factors imply it's very important for Africa, but it's not so clear for the rest of the world," he says. "You need high HIV prevalence to make circumcision programmes worthwhile."

    The American Academy of Pediatrics says it is not yet ready to shift from the conclusion it published in 1999 that any evidence of medical benefit is too weak to merit routine circumcision of babies. However, Jack Swanson of the McFarland Clinic in Ames, Iowa, who co-authored the policy, says the academy would be revisiting it in the next two years to take account of the latest evidence from New Zealand, Africa and elsewhere. "Maybe it will lead to a change," he says.

    From issue 2579 of New Scientist magazine, 23 November 2006, page 8-9
    To snip or not to snip

    Whatever the scope for circumcision to prevent the spread of HIV in Africa, it is doing little to silence groups in the US and elsewhere who oppose the practice. "It will doubtless become the latest excuse to justify circumcision," says John Warren, a retired consultant physician who chairs Norm-UK, a group that opposes routine circumcision of babies. Like similar groups, Norm is principally concerned about two things. One is the (contested) claim that circumcision robs men of sensitive tissue important for sexual pleasure. The other is the ethical objection to circumcising healthy babies who cannot consent and also suffer pain from the procedure.

    "In America, we've mutilated most penises by taking off the best part," says Marilyn Milos, founder of the National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers in San Anselmo, California. "We don't have a right to cut off normal body parts."

    Opponents and backers of circumcision do at least agree on one thing - there has been very little research into the effect of circumcision on sexual pleasure.

    Sensitive issues

    Warren cites a postmortem study published in 1996 in the British Journal of Urology (vol 77, p 291) that found particularly high numbers of sensitive cells called Meissner's corpuscles in the folds and ridges formed when a foreskin is retracted behind the glans. But the extent to which these findings mean that circumcised men experience less pleasure is not known.

    Backers of circumcision say that given the history of the practice any widespread problems with sexual pleasure would have come to light long ago. A study in Turkey in 2004 found no negative impact on sexual function; circumcised men did take longer to reach orgasm, but this was considered beneficial.

    Meanwhile, a separate study in the US found that circumcised men were less anxious about sex, especially elderly men, and suffered only half the amount of penile dysfunction as they aged (The Journal of the American Medical Association, vol 277, p 1052). And a study of 15 men in 2002 in The Journal of Urology (vol 168, p 2134) reported no difference in reported sexual drive, ability to achieve erection, ejaculation or overall satisfaction.

    Gateway for disease

    Better understood is how circumcision prevents the transmission of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases.

    A recent study by Betty Donoval and her colleagues at the University of Illinois in Chicago describes how HIV targets and infects specific white blood cells found on the inner mucosal surface of the foreskin. These are not present on the surface of a circumcised penis (American Journal of Clinical Pathology, vol 125, p 386).

    "It's easier for the virus to enter these cells in foreskin," says Helen Weiss of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, lead author of a pivotal review in 2000 demonstrating the benefits of circumcision. "No one is saying that circumcision completely protects, but the evidence suggests it at least halves infection," she says.

    The area under the foreskin is also a warm, moist environment favourable to pathogenic organisms. This helps explain this month's findings from New Zealand that circumcision offers protection against other sexually transmitted diseases, including syphilis and chlamydia (see main story). "My study strengthens the case for general susceptibility to a range of infections in uncircumcised men," says David Fergusson of Christchurch School of Medicine and Health Sciences, who carried out the research.

    It also stokes the debate about whether all men - not just those in countries where HIV is rife - could benefit from having the snip. One claim used to justify routine circumcision of newborn babies is that it reduces their risk of infections of the urinary tract in the first year of life. But these are rare - for every 1000 babies, up to 14 uncircumcised infants would get infections compared with two circumcised babies. Circumcision also reduces the risk of penile cancer, but again this is very rare, affecting just 1 in every 100,000 men in the US.
    WHO hails circumcision as vital in HIV fight
    31 March 2007
    NewScientist

    IT MAY not seem like the kindest cut, but circumcision has been hailed as a vital new way to combat HIV. In a report issued on 28 March, the World Health Organization and UNAIDS issued a series of recommendations to increase rates of circumcision in countries where the HIV problem is most serious.

    "We reviewed all the evidence, and the evidence is compelling," says Kim ****son, coordinator of the joint WHO/UNAIDS working group that produced the report.

    Studies in South Africa, Uganda and Kenya have recently shown that circumcised men are on average 60 per cent less likely than uncircumcised men to pick up the virus (New Scientist, 25 November 2006, p 8).

    ?Circumcised men are 60 per cent less likely to pick up HIV than uncircumcised men?
    ****son says promoting the procedure would have greatest impact in countries where more than 15 per cent of heterosexual men are HIV-positive, but fewer than 20 per cent are circumcised. Swaziland, for example, where 40 per cent of adults are HIV-positive, has held two "circumcision Sundays", on which hospitals have offered the procedure.

    There are caveats, however. The procedure must be done by a trained physician, and men must realise that it doesn't provide full protection, so they should carry on using condoms and having fewer partners. "It's not a virtual condom, so you can't assume you're protected," ****son says.

    Newly circumcised men should also avoid sex for at least six weeks, until they're healed.
    Circumcision cuts cervical cancer rates
    by Emma Young

    Increasing the rate of male circumcision could slash cases of cervical cancer in women, according to a new report.

    A team led by Xavier Castellsagu? at Llobregat Hospital in Barcelona reviewed seven studies from five countries on a total of almost 2000 couples.

    Women with "low-risk" partners - men who had previously had fewer than six sexual partners - had a similar risk of cervical cancer, whether their partner was circumcised or not. But women with "high-risk" partners were 58 per cent less likely to develop cervical cancer if their partner had been circumcised.

    The team also found that Human Papilloma Virus (HPV) was present in almost 20 per cent of uncircumcised men, but in fewer than six per cent of circumcised men. HPV is sexually transmitted and contributes to the development of nearly all cases of cervical cancer. Circumcision is important because the inner lining of the foreskin is thought to be especially vulnerable to infection.
    Easily cured

    A link between male circumcision and reduced risk of cervical cancer has long been suspected. But the new study quantifies that risk.

    "If we assume that 25 per cent of men around the world are circumcised, then the general adoption of circumcision might lead to a further reduction in the incidence of cancer of the cervix of 23 per cent to 43 per cent," write Hans-Olov Adami of the Karolinksa Institute in Sweden and Dimitrios Trichopoulos of the Harvard School of Public Health, US, in a New England Journal of Medicine editorial accompanying the research paper.

    Worldwide, there are about 466,000 cases of cervical cancer each year. The disease is easily cured if detected early enough, and most deaths occur in the developing world.

    Castellsagu?'s team used data from Brazil, Spain, Thailand, Colombia and the Philippines.

    Journal reference: New England Journal of Medicine (vol 346, p 1105)
    Sex education/promoting condom use *should* be more effective however for some reason sex education/condom promotion seems to be pretty ineffective. Here and overseas a fortune has been spent on safe sex campaigns aimed at all sorts of groups, using all sorts of tactics yet although the message gets through people still don't bother to use condoms. People know they're behaving in a risky way but they don't alter their behaviour. In fact in Australia after all the years of safe sex education that started when the AIDS epidemic started the number of people who practise safe sex is falling not rising.

  15. #87
    Registered User

    Mar 2008
    North Northcote
    8,065

    yeah you're right bath! this issue is never discussed at playgroup...i mean, we discuss so many things (vbac, one kid or more debates, immunisations, cc/gentle parenting), but NEVER that. i wonder...

  16. #88
    BellyBelly Member

    Oct 2008
    3,132

    I've heard a few men say this. Something to consider is, while he may look like his dad, he probably won't look like most of his friends, as circumcision is becoming quite rare these days.
    Actually where I live and the circles I mix, this is not true. In my mothers' group, 2 of the 6 boys are uncircumcised (and they are brothers), my nephews are all circumcised, as are most of my friends little boys (with the exception of one). I know more boys who are circumcised than uncircumcised. i will point out that I am a Christian but my non-religious friends have chosen to circumcise their sons just as much as my Christian friends.

    I know which friends have circumcised their sons, but I have never really discussed it with them. It is kind of a personal issue. But since this is the site for personal issues and TMI . . . I feel comfortable talking about it here . . .

    We were so torn making this decision when we found out we were having a boy. All the males in my family are circumcised and this did not make it an easy decision for us. I was torn between the possibility of causing my son a great deal of pain, family 'tradition', social acceptance (I was more concerned about backlash for having my DS circumcised, I hadn't realised how common it was in Townsville) and then the medical research.

    My DH and I talked for many hours about what we thought and the evidence doesn't really pull us hugely either way. In the end we made the decision because both my DH and my Dad were circumcised as older males due to medical issues. We decided that as a preventative thing it really was the way to go for us. I'm sorry if this offends some people, we really do love our DS and want the best for him. We made the decision with his best interests at heart.

    On the day of the circumcision, I felt ill about it. But in the end, it really was fine. DS cried once while the procedure was being done and it was all over in 10 mins. I really was amazed how well it went.

    That is our story anyway. I don't know if it helps anything really but I know that we had a lot of turmoil about whether or not to do it. In the end, we made a decision that we have peace with. I don't think it is for everyone and everyone's circumstances and experiences are different. Our experience led us to believe that this was the right decision for us, but it doesn't mean that it will be right for everyone.

    In response to the whole debate on SN - I was very dissappointed with the whole show. I don't like that they said circumcision should be made 'mandatory' and extreme opinions on things always concerns me no end. I don't feel like either side presented an argument worth listening to . . . just my opinion

    ETA: Kitten - with regards to your post about HIV and STIs - there is some evidence that it may decrease the risks in studies put forward by the World Heath Organisation but many of these relate to males in Africa and other countries where there are lots of sexual health issues and HIV is very common. I think the Australian gov't is only just starting to look at the issues in relation to us as a nation now. I would say it will be a couple of years till there is an answer either way . . . for the next 20 years anyway and then they will decide that circumcision is out again.
    Last edited by Just Me; May 26th, 2009 at 12:43 AM.

  17. #89
    Registered User

    Dec 2007
    Taking a ride on my grdonkey :D
    2,716

    I wonder if circumcision is becoming 'normal' again (as has been said before, it fell 'out of favour' for a few years and seems to be making a comeback) because of reasons like 'all the boys in our family are done'? (NOT saying at all that this is not a 'good reason' for doing so, at all - just thinking out loud, really.)

    My friend has a little boy the same age as my DD, and she never even vaguely considered circumcision, it just wasn't an issue that she even thought of during her pregnancy - but her DS ended up circumcised because his grandfather (her partner's father) *insisted* it be done, 'because he's a Smith (not their real surname, but that's beside the point) and Smiths get the snip'. No other reason behind it, just that granddad is 'old-school' (eg thought my husband was a great bloke for ten years, then decided he was a thug when DH got a tattoo on his forearm, because 'only criminals have visible tatts', that kind of attitude) and insisted that no male relative of his would be getting around with hs foreskin left on (apparently it's 'unmanly' or some such...?) ...
    My friend had no strong feelings on the matter and consented because she knew her partner would give her hell forever and a day if his father's wishes weren't followed to the letter (bear in mind my friend's partner is in his mid-20's and STILL lets his parents dictate to him like he's a 5-year-old - he didn't even move in with my friend until after their son was born because his mummy didn't want to let him go), I just thought it was a bit strange that granddad would care so much to insist, when it's not his child, kwim?

    Have any other mums faced pressure from their family (particularly the older generation) to circumcise their boys, and how did they deal with that?

  18. #90
    BellyBelly Member

    Oct 2007
    Ever so slowly going crazy...
    2,268

    Townsvillegirl, I was thinking the same thing!!

    Studies done in almost 3rd world conditions hardly sway me to believe that 60% of our men are going to be dieseased. Non circumsicion has been popular for many many years, and I haven't heard that we have an epidemic of virus filled men.

    I dont see how a uncircumsised penis, washed everyday, is worse than some teen who may shower once a week, and is circumsiced. It's all relative to the individual.

    I certainly wont be teaching my daughter that its "more dirty". She should play safe regardless, and not put her safety in someone elses hands...

... 34567