Me again

[Smoke Jaguar]

Hee hee, Ryn - part of my consequences-style teaching is NOT turning lights on! The other week Oscar got fidgety in the middle of the night (ok, so he wasn't feeling 100% and was all over the place), I let him slip off the bed (he gets off surfaces feet first, something we learned in swimming lessons) and walk down the hall...in the dark. Maybe you missed that nuance, but I don't indulge him when we're not in synch, I just work with it and remember the words of my wise friend, Bathsheba, who says "This too shall pass" (she's in my head, dammit!).
Because I'm studying, too, if he is up at a stupid hour (which is rarely anymore - hard to believe that my 'system' can reap rewards, but it does!), I let him play and I'll read my textbooks if I'm awake enough. But then again, I do know that if he goes to sleep later, he'll sleep in longer, which is not something many other children do.
Like I said, you do what you gotta do. I'm not saying you do what I do (I made that disclaimer right at the start of my post), I'm saying you do what you gotta do that's right for you and your child. Even if I DID think less of you because you don't do what I do, who cares? Does it affect your life and what you think of your child? I hope not! No-one here can tell you what you need to do, and if they try then they're kidding themselves. All we can do here is tell you what we do with our own children so that if anything resonates as a possibility for you, then you can try it on for size.
For instance, I could have taken offence to you calling the non-sleepiness a 'malarky', cos I just work with that scenario instead of resenting it. Likewise, you might take offence to me calling myself a 'bunny' for stressing out over a non-sleepy kid. Neither of us mean to judge, we're just putting our slant on these things Chicken, I understand your frustration - this part doesn't last forever. Please don't wish away this time, either - you wish away the good bits when you wish for the less savoury parts (not sleeping, not eating etc) to be gone.
You'll get there, you know you will!

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Emma, I do co-sleep - like you, my DH has left the bed. We both want this to stop and him to be back.

Mayaness, if it were a case of DS playing quietly in the dark I wouln't mind. But he screams until the light goes on then a few minutes later is tired so wants either me to play with him or make him go back to sleep. As DH doesn't help much then I do need my nights just to be able to keep going after lunch, which is why it's an issue. I don't need much - I am all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed today after 7 hours with 2 wake-ups - but I do need not to get out of bed at night. I would love to be more baby-led, but DS hates going to sleep and hates being on his own, I need to play with him rather than him just playing alone. He'll be OK for a bit, but if I'm otherwise engaged he's upset.

And I'd be pretty daft to ask for advice then get offended by what was on offer!

[Liz]

Mayaness - we could be twins with our sleep 'methods'! LOL. We too don't spend hours trying to make DS sleep. If he's not sleepy, then he stays up. I too believe we've reaped rewards of this, for one, we haven't stressed about his 'bad' sleeping habits (yes we had bad weeks with teething etc - but yes, they too passed!).. and he's worked out his own sleep routine now, albeit a loose one, we pretty much have a routine now.. which is him coming to bed with us anytime between 9.30 & 10.30pm each night! It works well, we're all happy, DH gets time to play with him in the evenings after work (he'd never see him if I insisted on 7pm bedtime) and night wakings are becoming less frequent. We've always worked around DS. I think as a result he is actually very flexible.. and people comment on how quickly I can put him to sleep when we're out LOL. Sometimes I put him to bed in his own room (and he comes in to us in the dark if he wakes) sometimes I just bring him straight into bed from the outset. And yep, he'll sleep in if he's had a late one too. I think we're finding a nice balance of give & take in our sleeping relationship - I've never stressed him about sleeping, and he's quite compliant if we need to get up early some mornings, or if he gets to sleep in. Of course we have the odd overtired moments, but he gets over them.

I know a family that taught & fought their babies to sleep, and well, lets just say they've been fighting this battle for the last 12 years.

Ryn, I know it can feel like it will go forever, and I was seriously expecting to be nightfeeding 4hrly for 2 years the rate we were going! But things do smooth out and you find your groove with each other.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

4 hourly... bliss! LOL. I am thinking that this is going to continue until he's old enough to understand "well when you're tired just close your eyes, screaming doesn't help!"

I think if he would go to sleep on his own, even with help, it would be different. But I have to fight him down even when he's so tired he is just crying all the time. He won't "cry it out" (not that I'd let him), he just hates sleeping. If it wasn't that I want to talk to DH at some point in the day I would look at letting DS stay up later, but he does thrive better on routine (just not sleep better LOL). He is happier when we have our routine, he learns more, talks more, just generally does more. I just can't keep up with entertaining my son all evening while DH plays on the computer, I want some relaxing me-time too!

(BTW, to get DH to do anything more than a 2-minute cuddle when he's had his tea after work, I have to put DS on the sofa, tell DH I need the loo or something similar and then say "oh, DS is about to crawl off the sofa, can you look after him?")

[Liz]

hehe... yeah - 4hrly felt like bliss to me too! LOL. It was 2-3hrly for the first 6 or more months. It did slowly get better I might have to change a few things before this bub arrives tho, don't think it'll work too well having him in our room as well as the baby! Aah well, we'll see what happens.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Phew, Ryn, I thought you'd taken exception to me! I was at pains to get you on side
I definitely know that it's not ideal for you to be up at ridiculous times in the night with a wakeful baby, especially if DH is doing his best to wash his hands of anything to do with dealing with it. My DP gets frustrated when DS isn't having a good night, and I feel (cos everything seems so much more dramatic and hopeless at night) that he is blaming me, somehow. His excuse for not helping is that he doesn't have boobs and he can never get him to sleep anyhow (not true, by the way...he's done it before!). If he's going to be like that, I'd rather be strung out and deal with DS in a more sensitive fashion than DP would!
Baby-lead is fine, if baby isn't leading up the path to insanity and sheer exhaustion.
I've thought of something else. It might not be your thing, but it might be worth a shot. Vetiver essential oil, a drop rubbed into feet, is said to work for keeping you asleep. Valerian oil to knock you out, Vetiver to keep you asleep. And Frankincense for sweet dreams. You could use that blend in a massage oil before bed, or just the vetiver to keep baby asleep once asleep. It's a bit out there for some people. I love my oils!
ETA: DP wasn't as responsive to DS for the first 5-6 months, either, but I bided my time, cos I knew that as soon as DS became more engaging, DP would get sucked right in. He did - when they seek out daddy and take more interest in daddy, usually daddy reciprocates. I put it down to evolution. After 6 months, baby is more aware of daddy, because if daddy's just gonna take off and start another cave family, why get emotionally invested? And daddies are probably wired to think from cavetimes 'what if I go and get killed on that next bison hunt, best not to get too involved with anyone and break their hearts'...or something like that. I'm being silly now, but with a basis in evolutionary theory! DH won't be able to resist DS soon enough, Ryn

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Hmm, worth a try - I will be walking past the homeopath and the natural pharmacy later today.

DH can get DS to go to sleep in his rocking moses basket, which is more than I can, and still will rarely do it for me. He won't even do bathtime even though he hears the fun we have.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Hmmm, getting DP enthused about swimming with DS is a work in progress - he has fun when we're there, but the ordeal to get him to the pool...!
ETA: Liz and Emma - thank goodness you two posted...sometimes I feel like I was dropped onto earth by aliens the way people I know IRL react to my parenting!

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

BTW, my theory is that babies are for mummies - if they were interesting to daddies, they wouldn't get as much from mummy at first, so once solids have started then they are more interesting to daddies. DH only started to get more interested just before we started solids as DS holds his arms out for cuddles as soon as he sees Daddy! And he's trying so hard to say Dada, that is going to make him super-interesting to Daddy!

[Smoke Jaguar]

I've read similar things, Ryn - that babies are biologically dependant on mummy, therefore, daddy isn't a survival need until solids, therefore probably won't get much attention or be as rewarding an interaction for daddy. It's just the way it is, so daddies shouldn't take it personally, but I guess sometimes they do. Daddies tend to prove the theory right, though, when they just up and leave to do their own thing, as if there is no child to consider...cos there effectively isn't, if they've left it all up to mummy to take care of! There are exceptions. I do know daddies who are hands on, in whatever capacity they can find for themselves, from day one. Pity DP isn't one of those exceptions!!

[Astrid]

My DP gets frustrated when DS isn't having a good night, and I feel (cos everything seems so much more dramatic and hopeless at night) that he is blaming me, somehow. His excuse for not helping is that he doesn't have boobs and he can never get him to sleep anyhow (not true, by the way...he's done it before!). If he's going to be like that, I'd rather be strung out and deal with DS in a more sensitive fashion than DP would!

Wow, could have written that myself.

If I had my way I would not spend hours trying to get Maggie to sleep, I find she does sleep better if I read her a bit more and stop trying to get her to sleep when she is really fighting it. After a few nights of stop start she begins to happily go to sleep the 1st try. DH just interferes, gives me that look that I am being weak, so I end up going back to the 2 hour battles, which just makes us all miserable. Oddly enough I got that advice from our GP (who follows Dr Sears) that if she is not going to sleep in 20 min, to stop and try again later. When we do stop it is up to her to amuse herself though, I keep fun interactions to a minimum.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Cool, Astrid! That second head I was sure I must have is quickly diminishing as we all come out of the closet
Ryn, did you try some vetiver oil? How did you go overnight? Or is your overnight happening now as I type?

[Lulu]

Well I've got 2 heads then too! Be stuffed if I was going to rock, pat, sing, dance whatever at 3am!
What bothered me the most was the sleep books. ie - Settle baby and leave the room, if baby wakes go in and pat etc etc etc. Well, I never left the room for the first step. I couldn't see the point of trying to get a baby to sleep for 2 hours - we gave it 30 mins, then would try again in another 30 mins. It did my head in and made me me like a failure so I wrote my own rules.
The point I was trying to get across the Ryn (without scaring the crap out of her!), was that sometimes there are no answers......
I made my own rules, and they suited me and that is just fine to do that.

2 headed mummies that don't pat babies and croon delightful ditties for hours at 2am - stand up and be counted....we know you're out there!

xoxoxoxoxxoo

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Oh, those sodding books! "Don't pick baby up" just leads to extra distress. I can put him down awake but tired and he'll play for a few minutes then start to fuss, then cry. So I go in, calm him down, leave. He starts to cry. So I go in, calm him, put him down and can't even get out the room.

As for the time I spend getting DS to sleep - he will fall asleep in my arms within 15 minutes. Just keeping him asleep once I put him down is the hard bit, be that in his cot or in my bed. I did manage to rock him to sleep a couple of times, but once I stopped "sssh"ing and rocking he would wake up again - grr! (BTW, I know he sleeps in his chair, but I really want him to sleep in a bed, hence no chair last night.) Dr Seuss isn't the success I thought it may be, so I will try soothing music tonight - which means I can go to sleep within an hour too!

Mayaness, is there any particular way I should be using the vetiver oil? Cos i may have used it wrong.

My health visitor suggested I let him cry a bit, which I aren't going to do. Even if DS has learnt his cries will bring Mama, surely that's better than learning his cries won't bring Mama? Yes, sometimes I look at him and he's making a cry noise with a big grin on his face, so I giggle at him and he laughs back, but it wouldn't be a game if I stopped attending to him. Anyway, that's just me!

(btw, I would let DS play in the small hours if he could amuse himself. He can't, and I'm not playing with him at that time!)

[*charmalea*]

ryn! der i forgot it was summer there atm , but i had to chuckle when you put it can get up to 30 degrees.... i am in queensland and if its 30 degrees in summer... then your having a good day.. it gets up to 40 or more out where i am .... but i hadnt actully thought about swaddling and summer... prob wont its too blody hot !!


oh i have seen somewhere you can get feet for the cot that rock it ... or a vibrating matress thingy...could be soothing

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

LOL, 30 is jumpers weather for me usually, I'm toughing it out this year.

The moses basket is on a rocker, but he has nearly outgrown it so we need to get him sleeping through without feeds now so we can move him into his own room - a large cot won't fit in my bedroom.

[Smoke Jaguar]

I understand about letting play by himself if he could - we are now at the stage where I CAN let DS amuse himself without my input. Prior to that, I would sit and read while he played around me. Now he can play if I'm not there without fretting. You WILL also reach this stage!
Vetiver can be used neat - one drop rubbed into the sole of each foot. Rubbed anywhere is beneficial, but as it has a strong earthy smell, the feet is a practical place. *just looking up my 'Calm Kids' essential oils book* : Grounding bath oil:
8 drops lavender
5 drops mandarin
1 drop vetiver
50ml dispersing bath oil
is another way to administer vetiver
Would DS stay asleep if he slept on your chest? I found that sleeping DS on my chest was a winner for a while, before I was able to switch back to having him lie next to me. It must have just been something he needed at the time, so I went with it till I could see he didn't really need it anymore.
I know it's killing you. It might help ease your mind a bit if you can project yourself to a time ahead when this is no longer an issue. Think of how you will feel then, grab a bit of that relief, borrow it from the future and feel it now... you know this won't be a patch on the timeline of parenting your child.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

TBH, after a couple of OK nights I am feeling great, it's just my little man is soooo big that he needs his own bed! I can't even ignore his playings as he still needs my participation with toys.

He will fall off my chest. I have just put some more pics on the website - as you can see, he's almost as wide as me! When we go to bed, I will hold him next to my chest and lie down with us on our sides, him against my chest, and he still wakes. Some nights I can then BF him back to sleep, some nights not.