Need help - my eyes are popping out!

[{sarah}]

I jut can't deal with the lack of sleep anymore & thought I would see if you guys had any ideas for me. This is going to be long, but I'll explain the situation & what we've tried. I can probably count the number of times Zander has slept through on both hands. I wouldn't be so fussed relly if he was up once or twice over night but he's not, a good night here is when he's up at least 4 times. That I can handle but more often than not I'm up for hours on end. I'll give last night as an example.....

Zander had his normal routine of dinner, bath, 1/2 hour nudie play, bottle in his darkened room, bed (normally he has a book before bed, but we left his favourite at Granma's house). Last night was a bit later than usual, he was in bed at 9.15pm. I went to bed at 11.00pm. We were trying out something new so as I went to bed I turned on the radio in his room so he had some background noise. I went to sleep & all was good until 2am. Zander cried, I got up to see what was wrong & there was nothing obvious - he had his dummy in, blankets on & was holding his bear. His eyes were closed as if he was still asleep. So I adjusted his blanket he stopped crying & I went back to bed. By the time I got back he started again.

This went on from 2am - 4.30am. Every time I went in, it seemed like there was nothing wrong. At 3am I changed his nappy because it was quite wet. I'm embarrassed to admit that at 4am I gave in and gave him a small dose of Panadol thinking that maybe something was wrong that I couldn't see. I'm not sure if he was in pain & the Panadol helpes or if I just drugged him to sleep So from 4.30am until 9.50am he slept without a peep (and so did I!!).

One thing that was different last night though was he was sucking really hard/fast on his dummy every time I went in.

So now you have a typical sort of night (but without the panadol) I'll tell you some things we have tried....
* light on, but dimmed right down & light off
* heater on to warm the room (although it wasn't cold enough last night)
* radio on & no radio
* music from his mobile on & off
* changed from cow to soy milk - he had 2 nights when we first changed where he woke only twice
* given him bottles in the middle of the night
* given him a drink of water when he wake up
* cuddled him back to sleep
* Brauers Colic Relief when he had wind (didn't make a difference)
* Brauers Teething Relief which helped a bit but I don't want to be reliant on it in case it's not his teeth
* with his toys & without
* with a dummy & without
* with me sitting in the rocker next to his bed
* he won't sleep in our bed
* cuddling him back to sleep
* let him cry, but I go in after a max of 2mins (if that!)

He goes to sleep really well each night, as long as I don't try to put him to bed before he's tried then we have dramas. His day sleeps are fine - he has 1 sleep of about 2hrs in the afternoon. Some days he might have two sleeps, but that's determined by how he is during the day & really is his decision, although I do make sure he has at least one sleep. If for some reason he doesn't have a sleep during the day I make sure he goes to bed earlier than normal. Sometime we have late nights, but that doesn't seem to make a difference at all.

Not sure if it makes a difference, but might be worth mentioning... I can't remember the last time Zander has had a proper solid poo. This is the reason we changed him to soy milk in the first place. He doesn't seem to have an issue with it, although we have to be vigilant with nappy changes because it can cause nappy rash badly.

[Mumma2three]

I would really stress getting him to bed early. Have you tried between 7pm-7.30pm? This is the case for all sleep routines. Also with DD1 who was the most amazing sleeper, she went to bed at this time until she was 6. Only changed becuase her "friends" stayed up until 8pm!!! Also, maybe don't go in to him, if his eyes are shut etc he may resettle himself, and maybe it's just him learning that you won't be in every noise he makes?
Hope that is of some use and good luck, I kknow only too well what it's like to be sleep deprived. xoxo

[Lilly-Pilly]

Sarah, I went through a stage with ashlea where i would be up for at least two hours straight everynight and nothing at all i could do would get her back to sleep except to put her in my bed with me. By this time (This went on from about 18months to 2 1/2) I didn't want her sleeping in my bed so would try everything to get her back to sleep. She would scream hysterically like somethat was wrong, but the second i put her in my bed she was fine, which meant nothing really was wrong.

Ashlea was the same that she would go straight to sleep not problems at night and sleep really well until 2am. It got to a point where every night it was was 2am on the dot she'd wake.

The only compromise I could come up with that worked for us both was putter her blues clues couch on the floor in my bedroom and letting her sleep there. For me it wasn't ideal cause i just wanted her in her own bed and it drove me insane having her in my room, but it was better than in my bed. If she kept carrying on sleeping on the floor in my room I'd tell her that she'd have to go back to her own room and she would settle down.

Sorry that this probably didn't help, but i understand what its like and remember how over tired and annoyed i'd get everynight thinking what the hell is wrong and how do i get some decent sleep?

Hope Zander starts sleeping better soon

[{sarah}]

Meg his usual routine is to go to bed at 7.30-8.00, as I said last night was a late one as the circumstances of the day couldn't be avoided. I don't actually get up the second he makes a peep, I make sure he is actually crying before I go in & if I don't go in he just gets louder & more upset. I don't plan on changing from getting up to him when he cries, I will not do controlled crying.

[Trish]

Sarah, now you know that I can offer nothing here that you haven't tried. Perhaps we need to shove Zander and Tehya in room together, and we can both sleep in a sound proof room. There is nothing wrong with either of them other than the fact that they hate sleeping...

You know that I give in and put Tehya into my bed, whcih I know that's letting her win but you know as well as I do when your that tired you'd do almost anything. Tehya does resettle there for a little bit, but then after her first wakeup she's up atleast evey 2 hours. Sometimes more frequently.

I wish I had a solution hun. Maybe we need Pinky to come out and do a house call for us Eventually they've got to sleep through, right???

[EllyBoo72]

Hi Sarah, I'm Not sure myself what to do here, but just wanted to let you know that DS has a similar sleep issue! He usually wakes a couple of times for his dummy etc. But I find when he has a really bad night waking throughout, he is usually sick and just wants to be held or at least have you in the room til he dozes back off. I usually pick him up, and wait for him to fall asleep again, then put him back in his cot. I slept on a matress on the floor in his room last night, as we have had him in hospital with croup. He never woke once! But I didnt get any sleep due to his snoring LOL!
Sounds like Zander has a good bed time routine. Maybe he is feeling a little off with his bowels as you said. My niece had this problem as a bub and I know that this would keep her awake throughout the night.
It is so hard to figure out what is wrong with them sometimes. I am not one who is willing to do the controlled crying thing either. I figure, I cant work it out, so I will just put up with it til he grows out of it LOL!!! Easier said than done though!
Sorry I havent been much help. I hope you get some good shut eye soon

[{sarah}]

Trish if it was as easy as putting him our bed it would be great, BUT silly me had him come in on a Sunday morning & jump on daddy to wake him up so our room is playtime for him

The worst thing is he slept all night at mum's on Saturday night. What's with that??? This was the reason why we tried the radio last night thinking tha maybe because he was in their room with noises that's what helped. Sadly no

[Trish]

OMG Sarah, my kids always slept great at my mums house too. Not sure with Tehya overnight though, no one is brave enough to try it out for me And just coz Tehya comes into our bed, doesn't mean that she will sleep, damn it. I'd be more than happy if that were the case.

But, I am pretty sure that if I were to leave her in her own bed and just go back and forth it would be so much worse!!!!

[Fi]

OK - this might seem like a strane suggestion - but maybe move his room around?
So his cot is facing away from the door, or away from the window, or something like that. I'm working on the whole FengShui thing of beds should be facing N-S (or is it E-W??). Maybe remove some of the stimulus in his room, or put more in.
Jenna is totally into sleeping with about 10toys at the moment.

We have a similar problem - she will go down about 7:30-8pm, and then her wakeups start about 2-3am. Only difference is we let her grizzle (not cry - just grizzle) for about 15mins before we go in. When she starts winding up, thats when we take action. Often she will resettle after a while. Sometimes we have let her grizzle for 1hr without realising cause its on and off, and we keep sleeping. But the real crying wakes us up.
If she wont settle, we go in, check for a poo, and sleep with her. Its just too hard to sleep with her crying.

How long do you try all the things? Is it worth trying the music on for a week before deciding it doesn't work?

Jenna is too clever for us - she knows when Shane goes in without glasses on, he is there for the rest of the night, and she will settle straight away. If he has his glasses - look out!

My only other suggestion would be longer that 2min - but that is obviously entirely up to you. If he's crying really hard, then don't even leave him for a minute, but if itsa sleepy grizzle, would it hurt to leave him just to see what happens? Your call - I understand if thats not something you want to do.

Other than that - let him sleep for a week at your mums place, and maybe he will get the drift of whats expected!!!!

[EllyBoo72]

silly me had him come in on a Sunday morning & jump on daddy to wake him up so our room is playtime for him

DH introduced our bed to DS as a trampolene LOL! There is no way I could get him to sleep in bed with us either, he also thinks the bed is for play Should be fun trying to get him into his on bed when the time comes!

[Aleanbh]

Dear Sarah,
Oh god how I feel for you!
I a pregnant too and that motivated me to teach baby to go to sleep as he was dependent on my breast to do so. I was just too tired and only getting fatter

Here is what worked for me (in caps)
* light on, but dimmed right down & light off LIGHT OFF SO HE CAN'T SEE TOYS
* heater on to warm the room (although it wasn't cold enough last night) YES BUT SWITCH OFF AS YOU LEAVE ROOM
* radio on & no radio NO MUSIC – IT DISTRACTS
* music from his mobile on & off DITTO
* changed from cow to soy milk - he had 2 nights when we first changed where he woke only twice NO LIQUIDS AT ALL
* given him bottles in the middle of the night NO, NOT THIRSTY, JUST WANTS TO GO BACK TO SLEEP
* given him a drink of water when he wake up DITTO
* cuddled him back to sleep DITTO – THIS JUST REINFORCES THE HABIT OF RELYING ON YOU
* Brauers Colic Relief when he had wind (didn't make a difference) NO BUT DOING BICYLCE LEGS DID WORK FOR US – QUITE VIGOROUSLY TO GET IT ALL MOVING. AND FEEDING HIM UPRIGHT, NOT LYING DOWN (THIS LOOKS V ODD WITH BUB SITTING UP TO BREASTFEED BUT MOST OF THE WORLD DOES IT THIS WAY – NOT SURE WHY WE GET TAUGHT TO FEED THEM LYING DOWN).
* Brauers Teething Relief which helped a bit but I don't want to be reliant on it in case it's not his teeth IT’S NOT TEETH – WE ALWAYS HAVE AN EXCUSE, SAYS WEISSBLUTH, TEETH IS A CONVENIENT ONE. BUT BONJELLA DOES NUMB THE SORE GUMS, I USED IT TWICE.
* with his toys & without WITHOUT – NOHTING IN BED
* with a dummy & without NEVER USED A DUMMY BUT IT IS SAME AS BREAST – AN EXTERNAL AID
* with me sitting in the rocker next to his bed DITTO
* he won't sleep in our bed COZ IT IS TOO MUCH DISTRACTION
* cuddling him back to sleep I STOPPED THIS AS SOON AS I ACCEPTED THAT THIS WAS PRECISLEY WHAT WAS CAUSING HIM TO NOT BE ABLE TO GO BACK TO SLEEP BETWEEN SLEEP CYCLES
* let him cry, but I go in after a max of 2mins (if that!) 2 MINUTES IS NOT “LETTING HIM CRY”. I PUT NO TIME LIMIT ON IT AND THE WORST IT GOT WAS 13 MINUTES AT BEDTIME AND 45MINUTES DURING NIGHT (AT 3AM).

So this is how I changed a 10 month old co-sleeping breastfeeding-through-night ("mom's all-night diner" as the Sears call it!) baby into an 11 month old in his cot in his own room 12 hours out like a light no crying incredibly happy well-rested baby:
(note-cannot be done with the wave of a wand or the twinkle of a nose LOL)

I read everything I had promised myself I would not read as I was a believer in not letting him cry for more than like 20 seconds - in bed with me he had no chance of whimpering, let alone putting himself back to sleep. So I read them all - not just paediatricians claiming to be sleep experts but also the neurologists who specialise in the sleeping brain vs the waking brain. Best one (save you the trouble): Dr Marc Weissbluth's Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child. It takes you from birth to teenagedom, (and presents a strong case for chronic sleep deprivation being a cause of ADHD, learning difficulties etc - but that is another story), and really brings home the point that babies need to be taught how to sleep well by a loving parent who is not afraid of hard work in the beginning.
[babies will "naturally" learn to fall asleep on their own at around age 3 - but I was too tired to wait for this]

1. Eliminate liquids - they are waking him up and making him wetter
Not to impose too much change in one go, first I night-weaned him. This meant putting him in cot at foot of bed and getting up every time he woke but gradually not giving breast (he was 10 months and had had solids for 3 months and masses of breastmilk so 100% sure it was not hunger, but habit). So I gradually substituted patting on bum (he sleeps on tummy) for breastfeeding, which of course meant leaning over the cot for berloody ages every 90mins or so on a bad night. This took a week - of each night reducing the length of feed (in your case-the millilitres of soy in bottle) by 1 minute until you are eventually not picking him up at all but just patting on bum.
The above technique was from Ferber (I eschewed his CC chapters – he favours going in and out of room like a yo-yo - and just read the night weaning one which is a no-cry one and excellent).

2. Eliminate external sleep aids - so he learns to put himself to sleep
Next was to teach him to go to sleep without an external aid (my patting), which simply cannot be done with him in same room in my view. So we moved cot into his room. Next was to look at how he went off to sleep at beginning of night. This affects how he goes back to sleep each time he wakes. So the way he was doing it was to breastfeed to sleep. So I was actively hampering his ability to fall asleep on his own. Because I didn’t want to hear him cry (as it upset e and I thought it meant he felt abandoned and that our trust was broken) I would nurse him ALL the way to sleep.
So I changed to nursing him til the moment his eyes closed, then put him in cot, pulled up covers v quickly and went straight out of room and shut door quietly. I did not go back in AT ALL. [That is the difference between this method and "control" crying - as if you can control it!! ] To go back in just infuriates baby and ultimately increases the number of tears. Whether you go back in after 2 mins or 10, it is all torture for them, and just designed to comfort upset mums.

This took 1 week. He now falls asleep laughing and muttering to himself (he is 12 months - muttering "car" and "bath" usually-his 2 fave things - the car being his little truck in yard) and he STAYS asleep for 12 hours. I put him down drowsy from bath and feed (NB – no nudie playtime in between these things)

3. Be consistent and persistent
OK - what was that week like? Hell - DH had to restrain me at times. I warned the neighbours there may be some crying (there was never screaming or vomiting-I may have caved in if there were).
I did not go back in to resettle/putt up blankets (he sleeps in a winter gro-bag so doesn’t need anything else). OK I admit I turned on the vapourizer (with water only in it) a few times which does make a comforting sound for around 7 hours- since air is too dry esp. if you have a heater on (should always turn it off at bed time - heat the room before bed but don’t leave it on in their room or they overheat and it makes air too dry). He gradually learned to fall back to sleep while still in REM ie like adults do. This may sound mean – why can’t we just accept that they are babies who sleep differently and will sleep like adults when they are 3 or 4? Weissbluth convinced me that it is a serious responsibility to teach him healthy sleep habits. (goes without saying – naps in daytime as essential – Zander sleeping 2 or 3 hours after lunch? I am keeping mine on 2 naps a day as long as he needs – 9am and 1pm, breastfed or patted to sleep as it is daytime sleep, different to night, does not affect his night sleep habits)

4. Bedtime must be no later than 7
- coz that is when babies and kids are tired - if you leave it later they are over-tired and it takes heaps longer to fall asleep.
Earlier bedtime does not cause earlier waking - just a longer sleep


With new baby, I will start on the right track (never soothing all the way to comatose state) so to avoid any sleep training at all.

So now I have last trimester of pregnancy where I am sleeping 10 hours a night (fall asleep after Australian idol
And a very happy little boy
GOOD LUCK with whatever you do!
Alanna

[Mumma2three]

I think maybe trying bed earlier could really help. I hope it does anyway! xoxo

[christy]

Sarah *hugs*. You know my journey with sleep as well... I don't have many other suggestions than what some of the others have done. Matilda always thought our bed was play time as well, but the last 2 nights has come in at 5am for cuddles & sleeps until 7.20am!!! Its very strange... but we aren't fighting it

A few things that we have also tried... are:

* Brauers Calm... it actually made a difference straight away.
* Lavender room spray... started the same night as the calm
* We reintroduced the dummy... but I guess you already have one...
* We changed around her room. And did heaps of comforting things, like give a foot massage before bed while telling her all the wonderful things she had done during the day & how proud we were of her. We decided to give her a glow in the dark star everytime she stays in bed when she wakes up around her bed... (sort of nighttime star chart...)

We still have issues with sleep. Bed-time here is when tired signs are shown or 7.30pm... and later if we are out or different circumstances occur (and really life throws different circumstances at you all the time ). But I think its less painful now when we became more consistent & followed our own game plan according to Matilda. *hugs*

[{sarah}]

Ok well we are trying everything for at least a week, so the radio will continue on for a week as well, maybe longer

Christy now that mention lavendar spray you reminded me of a website I've seen - Healing Hippo. They have all sorts of aromatherapy stuff designed for kids. They have a "sleepy room spray" with Chill out oils like frankincense, chamomile, lavender, sweet orange and petitgrain that I was thinking of trying. Do you think the lavendar helped much? (BTW they have a room spray called birthing bliss that you might be interested in ).
Also what's the Brauers Calm designed to do?

The other thing is I'm not so sure how making an earlier bedtime will make a difference? He goes to sleep fine so he's not overtired. Also I want him to be flexible for times when we are out & about or if things crop up out of the ordinary which mean he can't go to bed at his usual time.

Another thing, I don't time how long he's been crying for, it's just that I think it's about 2mins. It could very well be 10mins I don't know.

[christy]

Brauer's Calm says its for "irritability and insomnia" in toddlers. And we've even just used it on cranky days & it has seemed to help chill her out a bit. Not dopey but less stressed iykwim? I've seen the Healing Hippo in our health food shop, but didn't notice the room sprays, I think I'll go check them out tomorrow!! I've been making our own with oils we have here, lavender & chamomile.... I do think they helped. The first time we tried it she was 18 months old and that night was the first time she had ever slept through, from 7.30pm-6am!!! We ran out & only started again recently into our 2nd week of that month long nightmare...

The only thing with the earlier bedtime is really that some sleep studies show that they have "better" sleep earlier in the night, so from 6pm-midnight is the best sleeping hours & then they have the lighter sleeping hours from 2-5 (as we all know too well). We make bedtime usually after 7pm because there are times we want to be able to go out to dinner as a family & not have her overtired, or we go out to friends & leave around 7pm and want to be able to enjoy ourselves out as well. Whatever works for your family

[{sarah}]

Thanks for that Christy I had wondered why 7pm seemed to be the magical number! Zander is in bed at 7.30pm 9 times out of 10 and if not it's usually 8pm. I think I might have a look at the Brauers calm as well as the healing hippo spray.

[visitor2]

Sarah i just want to send you a big hug and i hope you can find something to work for you soon.

I'm having trouble with Kimberley not sleeping all night but i what i have been giving her to take Zander is too young to have. Let us know how you get on with the Brauer's Calm as what i am using you can only give for 3 nights in a row.

[christy]

Sarah I'm going out to get some of the room spray today! I'm out of my lavender & chamomile spray and oils here.

BTW the sleep studies were shown to me by a MCHN who was trying to convince me to put Matilda to sleep at 6am and I just said although I understand the reasoning reading the study, its just not the way we want to have to live for the next 2 years... or whenever she starts sleeping...