Passive Aggression... Why?

[Oorki Galoorki]

i grew up with a PA mother and since i have chosen not to have her in my life it has been great!
although just before i started uni i had let her creep in again, then when she didnt get the responce she wanted ( i was firmly saying no) she rang up and left a message on my phone saying call me and leaving her phone number.. (same number since i was 6 = 20+ yrs). I again have had to make the decision not to have her im my life. because i do NOT want her manipulation in my life...
Manipulation can be in many forms.. some times it is confronting to know that behaviours you think are ok, someone else thinks is NOT.

ETA: jen.. that is my mum too!

[Inanna]

Oops we posted at the same time Cai...

No I am not saying you are "too sensitive". I would never say that to anyone. You are feeling as you are. What I am saying is that we all have a filter that we see the world. The filter changes with our mood, our day, our experiences that day and in our life time etc etc.

I am just sharing my experience. My experience was that I grew up being emotionally blackmailed and passive aggression was my mothers forte. So I became very sensitive to it. I thought people were doing it when they maybe were not. I spent so much time questioning what their motives were that it only upset myself!

I came to see that my filter was distorted by my experiences. I personally am the same with "in jokes". I find it really confronting when people have a joke that they won't share. Or laught and I don't know why. This isn't because they're rude buggers necessaryily (maybe they are!) but because I am hypersensitive to it due to my life experience.

So, for me (& you are obviously a different person and this may be completely irrelevant!) I worked on just asking: "what do you mean when you just said:....") I found by asking like that I often heard completely the opposite to what I thought. Sometimes they said: "I meant xyz when I really believed they were saying abc!

For me it saves a lot of pain! I actually did it to Jen just a couple of days ago. I thought she may have been suggesting one thing. That's not what it was at all. In one question and one answer you just move forward.

So I think that PA is common & the only way to remove it is to question what someone means. Then you know! And maybe that other person then questions themselves... "was I being PA?" I know I do when someone asks me what I meant.

[Jellyfish]

It is something I've only become more aware of now that I have been on the other side. I think for me it was also not knowing any other way to deal with the emotions; frustration in particular. If you are wanting to point it out to somebody I would try to remember that it may be their only strategy for such situations so adding in something like "I know you are frustrated (upset, hurt, confused blah blah) but I think there is a better way for us to discuss it because I feel the conversation is being shut down by this direction and I would rather we found a way where we could both feel like this has been resolved" might be more useful then simply accusing them of being passive aggressive; most people default to defensive when they feel attacked/threatened.

[Nelle]

Wow Kelly! That is a long article! Which I didn't read because it's long. Is that me being passive aggressive instead of saying 'Kelly, that article is too long for me to read'?
Because if it is, then I'm passive aggressive about once every 4 minutes.

I think I'm a clarifier though, if I think someone's making a statement I'll double check - if someone's making a point I do like to take the opportunity to address it!

Sooooo...potentially I'm passive aggressive, but passive aggression is wasted on me?

[maz]

OK got a handle now and yes...delt with this alot not long ago.

so to me PA would be someone slyly pushing you, even to a point being a bully to make sure they are right. Snide comments infront of others to belittle you, have everyone laughing at YOU and never drop it.
I also think its not just words or the wording either, sometimes the tone of a voice can carry alot of it
I just dont get that...yeah I can be narky...but if someone annoys me, does something I dont like I am to upfront and say it and then leave it.

My dad is a good one at trying to bully me into doing things he wants and believes are 'right'...but sadly the man and my mum bought us 5 kids to be upfront and speak our mind (dame that) and I tell him straight up no your not right dad. He cracks it but hey...build a bridge daddy and get the hell over it! The same trait was passed down to my sister and brother and due to it Ive had nothing to do with my sister in almost 9 years and my brother is going to get a big serve of woop arse next time he starts

I think cause of it, I annalyse what I say and how I approach situations and others opinions as to not come across in that light

[Rouge]

LOL Nelle you crack me up!

Jellyfish that is an awesome approach, I try and do that too.

Thanks for that outlook Inanna. I think though for me the PA that has been in my life is that obvious it's not actually able to be anything else KWIM? I do question people though, exactly like you say. Otherwise like I said above I ignore it. I find different people react differently when questioned, either defensively or change the subject but very rarely (apart from very close friends) have I ever seen someone who communicates mostly through PA apologise and acknowledge (and this is my experience not a generalisation).

Maz that's pretty awful! And yes that is a form of PA too.

[Fleur]

Perhaps in that case, it IS more of a self confidence issue than a deliberate attempt to be evil and manipulative? As in, 'I don't think enough of myself to outwardly tell you that I think you're wrong, so I'll do it this way instead to get it off my chest'?

I think sometimes it is (not always).

I have seen this behaviour in me, and I think (for me) it was a self-confidence issue.
One paragraph in Kelly's article stood out for me -

Obviously, it's not safe to vent such rage directly. We'd be called selfish, bad, out of control. And we'd likely be yelled at, or even punished physically--another reminder that our bond with our parents was fragile and easily ruptured by any blunt expression of anger. It's only reasonable that we'd be afraid to overtly let our frustrations be known. For it's way too anxiety-producing to take what feels like our survival into our own hands, to offend those on whom we most depend.

This is what I took from my childhood. And it's one of the reasons that I invite my children to voice their opinions, even at the expense of other thinking I am raising argumentative kids - I want them to know how to voice their feelings, and to know it's ok, I will still love them.

I've probably seen the most PA behaviour (in myself) in my relationship with XP & DH - Lulu's dinner example was a classic, plus I was a champion 'sulker' - and two things have made a difference. One is purely & simply my relationship with DH & that I have learnt that although he might not like me being unhappy with him, he'll get over it & it's much better if he knows what he's done wrong (rather than me sulking & he having to guess).

The other thing is I have had people in my life (friends) who were great communicators & very assertive, and I learnt that I really liked knowing exactly where I stand with them. So I make an effort now to treat other people the same way - to be emotionally honest.

So I don't see it as evil, only because I have seen it in myself, I have an idea where it comes from, and I have been able to recognise it & change it.

I also wanted to say - I really don't think PA is evil as it's actually the most common way of communicating poorly! Almost every pperson alive would have utilised it at some point. Because we are all learning and growing. We all have things to work on. I do think it's not evil... I would hate for someone to identify with this method of communicating & believed they were thought as evil...

I know there are some people who would utilise this and be truly nasty & manipulative (I have had dealings with some of them, as have many of us ) but I don't think the bahviour in itself is necessarily evil - if someone is treating you 'evilly' there might be other stuff going on there (manipulation for example) as well IYKWIM?

ETA - it might be that there are different types of passive aggressiveness? there are a lot of different interpretations as Rouge said, in this thread alone. Some of the examples here are pretty nasty - when I talk about passive agressive I mean sulking, with-holding, that kind of behaviour. Making people suffer without 'doing' anything (not even *****ing behind someone's back - to me that is not PA, that is just wrong. I dunno, just thinking... so that would be why I don't see it as evil and others do.

[christy]

Wow in reading this thread, I see that there are a lot of other ways of viewing passive aggressive behaviour.

I come from a family that communicates through passive aggression. I don't go through one phone call to my mum or brother without it. They communicate with my aunts and uncles that way and most of my cousins.

I'm known as the "brash" cousin (noice). I'm known as "blunt" and "often rude" because I say what I mean. I don't see any reason to say "Oh! I would have never thought of it that way, thats different isn't it?" I just say "I've never thought of it that way, I think of it this way".... see the difference? Little cues... imagine your MIL saying things that are said to you and then you know whether or not its PA.

Yes, sometimes I'm oversensitive to it. I can't stand people trying to be nice in order to make sure their point is the ONLY way that is right. I really love a good debate, but when PA is brought into it, I bow out. I've been manipulated my whole life through PA, and I really can't be bothered dealing with it anymore.

If my DH was PA, it would be a different story... but my household and the way we communicate with our village isn't PA. There are members who maybe a bit PA, but they aren't generally in the "inner circle" of close friends. Not anymore...

[Astrid]

I remember now a lot of the little PA stuff that my step father did. He would always avoid confrontation , but honestly I believe a lot of what he did was out of pure enjoyment. I did not know what PA was when I was younger, but I do remember one incident where I really thought "wow, there is something not quite right in that behaviour". It was only something simple and something if I did make a fuss over, that people would tell me to get over it, I can look back on it now and see it for the power play it was. It was just over pizza, I am a fussy one, no anchovies, olives. So we always got 2 pizzas, one I could eat and the other olives on. I always noticed the SF would not touch the olive pizza till the other was finished. One night I pulled him up on it, he just looked at me with this evil glint, said nothing and reached for the last piece. Something about it really made my stomach sink and some of the respect I had for him was destroyed. Yes, it was just pizza, but I see know that he applied that to a lot of things he did to me and my mother.

Christy - I was often called blunt and lacking tact as I would often speak up. Mum said I had a "dry" sense of humour.

[Rouge]

That's horrible Astrid That's the type of evil I'm talking about. And I do get that not all PA is evil, and I know the word evil conjures up different things for other people.

And like you and Christy I too get told I'm harsh or abrasive too. And do you know what Christy you are the most caring and beautiful person...

[Trillian]

I haven't posted in this thread, but Astrid, that just sent shivers down my spine reading that that is just beyond evil.

[Astrid]

It is funny you ladies could see what it was, but in the early days my mother could not. She just said it was my problem, I was selfish for wanting more pizza and that there was something wrong with me as I did not like olives. I also know had I mentioned it to anyone that would though how stupid it was, it was just pizza. Don't get me started on all that he did, he was a sick man.

[Rouge]

Ugh parenting using PA nice. Nothing like being in denial.

[Trillian]

Not to take this off on a tangent or anything, but stuff like what you SF did, thats the sort of thing that you read about sociopaths doing to people. Its not normal.

[Jennifer13]

It's a very clear difference in the way some deal (or don't deal) with conflict and it does seem to perpetuate in families, don't you think?

In my family (with all its own unique dysfunctionalities...) disagreement and conflict was usually LOUD. Mostly from the women in the family, but if you had a disagreement, you had it out, right there (sometimes at the top of your voice ) and then once it was done, it was done. My sisters and I still have our disagreements, but apart from a brief sulk sometimes, it's over when the talking/shouting stops. I'm not saying this is the rigth way to deal with conflict, but it's what I understood at least. Mostly out in the open. No ambushes waiting around the corner.

In DP's family nothing is EVER over. I mean ever. They remember every slight, every perceived attack, every disappointment. Generally connected to someone, so if you have a bad experience, there's someone to blame. But that pessimism then finds itself coming right into conflict with the defensiveness that you have to have to protect yourself from the ongoing mistrust. So bring out the PA. I've never been so stressed in dealing with the smallest of conflicts and it is so hard not to get sucked into the vortex. It hits you so unexpectedly and out of the blue and letting go of it is very hard.

Christy witnessed it only a couple of weeks ago. We're having DD's bday party and my BIL and SIL bring their baby along, MIL's only other grandchild. She calls herself 'Nanny Granny', which we'd never heard, to niece (she's always been Grandma here). DP asks what she said. She repeats herself and says, "I never wanted to be called Grandma, but your Mum (indicating me) took Nana." Says this in front of all of us and my Mum. First time in four years we'd ever heard this, and actually, we were present at the conversation she had with my Mum when they were choosing their names for DD, and she (seemingly) happily chose 'Grandma'! DD is now totally confused, because I'm going around telling her to call Grandma 'Granny' now. How can you hang onto something like that for four years if you weren't happy with it, and then choose to air that grievance in front of everyone at the poor kid's bday??!

That's classic PA material. Take on dislike/dissatisfaction, bottle it up, don't talk about it at all, and wait until you can't possibly hold it in anymore and then choose some completely inappropriate way to get it out. Chip away for as long as you can... If someone calls you on it, act wounded and hurt, store that for future use.

I need more tips on effectively avoiding the trap of PA and managing the fallout!

ETA: Christy, you're a gem, no way could anyone ever think you rude!
Astrid, that's beyond horrid to a child. What's with mothers and supporting their husbands against all reason? My Mum had some PA moments when her marriage to my father was breaking down and she would sigh to me every time I called that the stress of the court case I had brought against my (child molester of a) father was doing so much damage to them/her. Nice. And then afterwards when she told me that at least I could do something about him (lucky me). Talk about pulled both ways. Took years for she and I to get back on track.

[Trillian]

Jen that's crap That was a completely inappropriate thing for her to say at L's party.

Having been thinking about this I realised that my Dad is like it too and I never knew it till now. I don't know what I thought it was before though, maybe guilt tripping? Dunno, but anyway it's not to the extent of some of you, and certainly not when we were kids - except for one time I distinctly remember and it was the day I found out that Mum had a baby at 17 and gave her up for adoption. Mum and dad were in the middle of the beginning of separation - you know, the constantly fighting stage. And they had just had a big blow up. I was the only one at home for some reason, I was nearly 11 and I was on mums bed with her as she was crying and do you know what he said to me? "Don't you know she doesn't love you kids? You have a sister that she just gave away because she didn't love her" It totally Blew My Mind. Imagine being that age and having a bombshell like that dropped on you. I never forgave him for that, it wasn't the time or the place for it. Now as an adult, PA basically sums up the relationship I have with him. He uses it as a tool of manipulation. To sum up, Dad is a dead beat dad, the type you see on ACA. our relationship is strained at best. The past few years he had started making and effort of sending the kids a birthday card, sometimes with money, sometimes not, sometimes even money for christmas. This Christmas there was nothing. The reason? Because he realised I blocked him on FB. So his solution to that was to effectively punish MY KIDS by not sending them anything for Christmas. I will tolerate a lot of stuff, but I will not, under any circumstances, let anyone use my kids as a tool for their manipulation. So I told him as such in an email and said he can do or say what he likes to me, I'm used to it but if he ever does that kind of crap to my kids like that again, I will tear him a new one. I don't condone violence at all, but that just brought out my Mumma Bear.

[Astrid]

Jennifer - my mother let a creep in the house alone with us and my 14yo sister, I was 7 at the time. Stuff was going on, mum knew, but she justified it as "we needed him as my father had abandoned us".

My SF did the ultimate act of PA. He moved my mother (who had no licence) out to the back of nowhere when he was dying. Lied to her about the full extant of his health and lied that he was on the waiting list for a heart transplant. He spent all the money, left insurances etc in a mess. Then he died. Normal people move closer to friends and family, set the spouse up to live with life without them, he did the complete opposite. Very sad, my mum was not a nice person, but she did not deserve that.

[christy]

You know something your MIL said at Lucy's birthday party was just something my Mum would say.... they like to make everything, every occasion, everything about them. I couldn't believe that she suddenly didn't like the "name" given to her.... Opps sorry off topic.

My mum this week was lamenting on the fact that she probably wouldn't see her grandchildren again before she died...... and how sad she was. How she must have done something wrong for me to move to the other side of the earth rather than with her .... geez.... thanks mum.