Passive Aggression... Why?

[Lulu]

inanna- i have tried calling her out several times, but then she will have a huff and sit in her car in my driveway and refuse to come in (just one example) until i go out and apologise to her- so i look like the total biatch to everyone if i refuse to do it. she turns it around on me and says stuff like 'oohh i wish i was as smart and educated as you are' (said in very sarcastic poor me kinda tone). She's a real piece of work.

Don't play her game. Leave her out there - who cares what you look like to everyone else? She is banking on you to care about what you look like to everyone If you take that part out of the equation all you have is a grown woman acting like a 2 year old.
Would you hand DS the lollies because he had a narna on the floor of the supermarket?

I find in these situations it's all about keeping the focus on THEM. Huffing, sulking and making cryptic remarks are all to throw you off balance and keep you on your toes. I keep to the subject and wave away the smoke and mirrors "you don't need an education to have an opinion mum - I still like the green one" eg.

[Inanna]

Ginger I agree entirely with Lulu. That's what I meant but I said it in a convuluted way...

This is also a lesson in not giving a rats what other people think. Let her sit in the driveway. Truly anyone who thinks sitting in the driveway is a way to communicate effectively really needs to stay in the driveway!!!

Big cuddles Ginger I know this is hard...

[KitFaerie]

There's a psych technique called the broken record, it can be used in extreme circumstances, and it could possibly end badly, but it may be worth a shot. Basically, pick a sentence, something like ''I'm sorry you feel that way, it must be difficult" or "I understand that your upset and I'm sorry about that, but this is my decision". So when MIL complains about her name/colour of cake/date of event/anything really, say "I'm sorry your feel that way, it must be difficult". Then go about your day. Repeat as required. It's obviously not the first choice in a difficult situation, as it's not so much a commuication technique as a save my sanity technique, but it may be an effective last resort.

[LionsandBears]

Ginger - agree with Lulu and Inanna. If she wants to chuck a tantie, let her. She'll just look like a child. Don't buy into the guilt-trip

LZ - I've been meaning to mention for a while that I think you were unfairly dismissed. What you just wrote backs that up - yes it was PA, it was used as a form of bullying and to keep you from completing your requirements - they set you up to fail, it had nothing to do with you. On top of that, from memory, wasn't there some knob who pretty much fired you for being depressed? That's discrimination, in my book. Obviously I don't have all the details, but I think you were forced out. It was not your failure - it was their's. I wonder if you have any recourse in the UK for discrimination?

Astrid - re: your SF. I'd call that sociopathic. PA is common in sociopaths, though not all PAPs are sociopaths, IYKWIM. Also, re: being PA towards your husband because he won't respect your decision. There's a great school of psychology called transactional analysis. From what I remember, in relationships, often one of us takes the parent role, almost forcing the other into the child role. So if someone takes the dominating position, says no, you can't do that or yes, you are going, that's being the "Parent". Rather than saying, I don't bloody think so, we're both adults here and my opinion is as valid as yours (or the equivalent), the other person often sinks into the child role, which is where the PA behaviour comes in. The way to overcome this dynamic is to both become "adults", neither one being a parent or child and agree to disagree and to value each other's feelings/opinions etc

KF - great technique. Can be very effective if you can keep it up.

[Astrid]

Actually reading some of this I realise that DH responds to PA better than a clear statement. When we first met he had a couple of stupid jokes he liked to play, the must have been his standard ones from his backpacking days. His past "relationships" were very short due to the nature of backpacking, so he would have been able to trot out these jokes and they would always be new. I just did not find them funny at all. One was pretending to have lost his keys, which is a real fear of mine and gets me into a right panic. The other is lifting up the back of my top in public and flicking my bra to the point of breaking.

With both these I was clear and controlled when I told him "I do not like, please do not do it again" I of course included the reasons why, genuine fear, humiliating, damaging expensive bras. He just would not stop, often claiming that he did not remember having done them before Talking did not stop him, yelling did not stop him. The only thing that did was being PA. With one I stood outside my own flat in the dark and rain to prove the point I was not happy, the other time I would not walk on the same side of the road as him.

Very frustrating that I had to resort to sulking and crap my mother would pull to get him to listen.

ETA: Tash - I do find it very chilling to think that SF was sociopathic. Hmmm he has never really come up in any counselling sessions I have had. Maybe I should have spoken about him more.
How do I get DH to be an adult? Funny that he is being the parent, I often see him as the child.

[Inanna]

Astrid I hope you don't mind me responding. The "I don't remember saying that"... Is typically a PA thing. It is not honouring or respecting your boundaries but doing so "passively" by stating a lack of recall...

How you respond is up to you. It is very very very usual to respond in a PA way. Because you are not having an adult conversation. You are thrust into the parental role & he takes the child. This takes more effort and insight to navigate. I've been there & I totally get what you are saying.

"I've asked you not to slap my back with my bra strap". "MY body is mine, it hurts me, I feel humiliated & disrespected". (this is an adult response)

I imagine him saying: "well aren't we touchy today!" "You've never said this before so how would I know"? (or insert your particular PA's favourite response!) "why would something like a bit of fun get up your nose so much"... "Gosh you're touchy, you just don't know how to have fun anymore"...

You could then respond with something like: "I hear you believe you've never heard this before, so next time please remember that it's not okay with me"...

Don't be drawn into the argument any more. If he continues... "I don't have any more to say that's constructive right now"... "If you still need to talk about this please let's do so later"...

Sometimes it's necessary to leave the room, or the house - go fo a walk etc... The difference with being assertive and PA is that you: a) own your feelings... "(I am feeling anger coming up for me") remembering always your emotional responses whilst they may arise quickly are yours & you should not level blame at the other for your feelings.
b) if you need to physically remove yourself you do so but you communicate verbally. (I need to go for a walk to let off steam)
c) "because of how I am feeling I need half an hour alone to think" etc etc whatever it is you personally need.

This is why for me it isn't true that PA is evil. If we truly examine our daily responses we will often find we all use it in some times. Times of anxiety, stress & often when dealing with a PA response in another person - this is when it becomes especially challenging. So please be kind to yourself...

PA is just one of the many challenging traits that we learn through our childhoods especially. There are many others that some would find much more disturbing.

There is a really good book that I used to use when I facilitated unemployed Youth training in personal development. It's called something like "Are you an Emotional Vampire"...
That's not it - I haven't got my copy any more so I will have to rethink it.

It actually helps to identify not only in others but in ourselves what less wonderful traits we might use, name them & learn about them.

Some are very obviously distructive. Some like PA are much more insidious... I hope I've helped some.

[Lulu]

Talking did not stop him, yelling did not stop him. The only thing that did was being PA. With one I stood outside my own flat in the dark and rain to prove the point I was not happy, the other time I would not walk on the same side of the road as him.

Very frustrating that I had to resort to sulking and crap my mother would pull to get him to listen.

I actually disagree that you were behaving in a PA manner. To me this says "if you cannot stop being such a *&*%^, when you know this upset me I will leave the room".

It's more a pity you have to resort to leaving the room, or refusing to walk on the same side of the street. I think that is drawing a clear boundary. Open for discussion....

exh2 was the same. He would continually be late, continually make ME late, constantly "forgetting" things. He kept me waiting in the car with DS for 10 minutes when we were to go out for dinner...after already keeping us both waiting for another 20 minutes faffing about getting ready. I warned him I would leave without him if he kept it up. And I did.
I believe I was drawing a clear boundary, he never did it again. I'm a pretty laid back kinda person so it takes ALOT to rile me up like that.

[Astrid]

Those stupid joking days are over thankfully, doubt we would have lasted a year if he had continued them, but he does have other PA behaviour. Many a time we have been left waiting whilst he talks absolute rubbish to someone who is not important, under claims that it is important. He looks like the friendly social one and I am the one getting angry in the car. Interestingly that behaviour does seem to have dropped over the years, may it is due to me driving again and I could drive off if I wanted to, previously I was at his mercy with the car.

[LionsandBears]

Astrid - I wish had something constructive to offer. I don't think you were PA either - it was a valid response to PA behaviour targeted at you. Unfortunately, that behaviour just reminds me of my Dad - it's very controlling/PA. The only way I deal with it is set clear boundaries and only deal with him on my terms, when I'm not feeling emotionally vulnerable. What I find most upsetting about this kind of behaviour is it comes from people who are supposed to care for and love us. Instead, they pull this crap that just leads to a sense of betrayal and mistrust. And I don't know why they do it. Long-term it's devastating. I'm afraid I don't know how to stop someone behaving like that if they don't realise what they are doing hurts and they don't validate your feelings. They only way I've learnt to deal with it is through years of counselling.

As pp have said, discussing PA can really drag up some deep emotional stuff. It's why it pushes such deep buttons in me. Reading people's stories has dragged up long-lost episodes with various people. Inanna mentioned we should give people the benefit of the doubt, and that would be nice, but my defensive satelites are highly tuned and I walk away as fast as I can when I encounter PA behaviour. Because I don't know how to get someone to change. All I can change is myself and how I deal with it.

[Liz]

I've been following this thread with interest. I'm getting a bit confused tho, cos some of the PA behaviour people are describing sounds just like annoying behaviour.. not something I would call PA... unless there really is an underlying, spiteful kind of motive to it.

Just citing your example Astrid (not picking on you tho! )

Many a time we have been left waiting whilst he talks absolute rubbish to someone who is not important, under claims that it is important. He looks like the friendly social one and I am the one getting angry in the car

Is that really aggressive behaviour? Or just annoying? My poor DH is often left waiting in the car whilst I chat "rubbish" with friends... (me longing for adult company I think!) and he gets a bit narky with me sometimes.. but it's certainly not done to annoy him deliberately.. so I wouldn't call it PA behaviour... in fact I could put it another way and say he's being PA by going and sitting in the car getting narky when I want to stay and chat! LOL I just feel some of the examples are just something someone doesn't like or isn't agreeing with and it's being plastered with the label Passive Aggressive.

I do have PA ways myself, and I feel myself being that way when it's happening, but just can't help myself sometimes. And I think one of the older posts summed it up in my case.. that I'm making a point (or stating a fact) but knowing I'm having a bit of a sly dig at someone, but feel I can easily get around it if called on it because it is kind of just a general remark at the same time (if that makes sense). Not something I'm proud of, and I often come away feeling terrible about it... even tho I have no idea if the person felt the dig or not. Seems to be with one particular family too. I obviously have issues there! LOL.

[Astrid]

I think many things on their own are really nothing, but when there is a pattern to what is happening you begin to wonder is he really that rude or is there something else going on there. In the case of my DH and talking, normally we both about leaving, then often as he is getting into the car he will wander back to talk about something oh so important. There are many other times with the whole waiting thing.

[Liz]

yeah i guess if there's a pattern. But I still wonder if it's done with an aggressive manner/intent. (Obivously I don't know either of you Astrid, so I'm not trying to psycho-analyse your situation LOL.. really just using it as an example and my thoughts flowing from there ) There's plenty of thoughtless things my DH does that I'm wondering if people would label as PA. When really they are just thoughtless, not done to deliberately annoy me. I could look at him leaving his dirty socks on the floor in the office as him being PA.. but I don't think he's doing it to spite me.. he's just genuinely thoughtless and too lazy to remember to pick them up LOL. And there's certainly a pattern to it, but just because it annoys me, doesn't mean he's doing it TO annoy me. Am I making sense?

ETA: LOL - just thought of a nice example of PA behaviour... my dad used to be really anal about having a tidy 2nd drawer in the kitchen.. he'd straighten up all the knives and spoons and whisks and whatever else is in that notorious 2nd drawer! And mum would deliberately go and mess it up cos she couldn't stand him being anal about stuff like that LOL. Now see.. that was done with nasty thoughts and intent.. so I would definitely call that PA. But if it was just casual messing up the drawer through everyday use and chucking stuff back in there after washing up.. I wouldn't say it's PA.. even tho both would have annoyed my dad.

[Inanna]

What you are saying does make sense Liz & one of the reasons that labels can be dangerous.

I actually think that PA is usually unconscious. Continuing lateness, not putting things away, long phone calls when others are waiting can be lots of things. But coupled with an inability to accept the opinions, ideas & thoughts of another, umderhanded digs (or conversely assuming others are behaving this way) is seen as PA...

However, as you rightly pointed out it's something we are all capable of & need insight to ensure we don't do that.

Personally I believe that the silent treatment, walking out etc are also PA responses & I don't think it helps the situation to use them in reverse... (but that's just my opinion! )

[Liz]

Just going on from my socks on the floor example LOL... I read in a book (can't remember which one) about 'training' your kids or your husband to pick up after themselves.. and it suggested calmly telling them that you are tired of picking up their dirty clothes for them, so from now on, for the sake of keeping the house clean you will be picking them up, but you will put them in a bag and put them in the cupboard for them to deal with when they're ready... and that they will soon learn to put their clothes int he hamper cos they'll run out of clean clothes. But see... to me that is HUGELY passive aggressive.. and I've never felt comfortable trying it.. cos it's so spiteful. But it can be 'justified' because it's "teaching them" to pick up their own clothes. But really... the intent comes from a mean place.. your jack of picking up their socks, so this is what you're going to do.

And yet I'm sure some people would think it's an open and honest way to deal with the situation because it's being straight forward and explaining what's going to happen. Whereas I feel it's quite aggressive and mean.

[Inanna]

I can see that it could seem aggressive...

I also agree that one Pa act doesn't deserve another...

So, I personally would not do what you've heard suggested. I might though ask who's issue is it? It's mine. I am the one who gets completely peed off that others can't pick up their stuff. So it's my problem. They are all happy dropping stuff on the floor. Especially because I pick it up.

So the solution also lies with me. What I've done is say: "I feel frustrated that you leave your towel on the floor"... I know that's my responsibility. So, I can either pick it up and be quiet or ask you to do it. What is the down side of not picking up your stuff... It's that your towel smells, your clothes don't get washed if they're not in the hamnper... What can we do so that your clothes get washed & your towel doesn't smell???

I've done that with my kids... (Not my husband)...

It works for me in that I've taught them (maybe) responsibility for their feelings (it's my frustration) that it is something that makes me feel good (my personality is neat!) when my house is tidy. Etc..

I'm tired I might be rambling... I hope you gegt what I am meaning...

[Liz]

Sorry... I'm going back and reading

He would continually be late, continually make ME late, constantly "forgetting" things. He kept me waiting in the car with DS for 10 minutes when we were to go out for dinner...after already keeping us both waiting for another 20 minutes faffing about getting ready. I warned him I would leave without him if he kept it up. And I did.
I believe I was drawing a clear boundary, he never did it again. I'm a pretty laid back kinda person so it takes ALOT to rile me up like that.

We had an argument about this very thing this afternoon.. cos whenever DH is with us we are LATE. It annoys the HELL out of me and I cracked it this afternoon.

He can get ready for work on time, and even gets to a movie EARLY... but if we're going anywhere as a family.. nup... runs late. I don't actually believe there's "aggressive" behaviour in this.. just thoughtless and hopeless LOL. If I'm spiteful in return by making HIM late.. I'm pretty certain it's not going to resolve anything. I'm still actually fuming inside over the fact I got out of the shower today to him still not dressed, but playing with the kids on our bed. aaaaarrrrggghhh. He does have adult ADD and is VERY prone to distraction.. so i make allowances for that. For eg. he can't just get dressed.. half way through buttoning up his shirt he might think of something, so he HAS to go to the computer and note it down or look it up right there and then or he'll forget it. But then he'll get distracted until I say "aren't you dresed yet?" then he'll go and put a couple more items of clothes on until the next distraction. arrgh. Sorry.. venting now LOL. But I still don't agree it's PA.

But tell me... I told him that I might just have to run 10 minutes late myself tomorrow morning when driving him to the train station... wouldn't I be being PA doing that?? I mean.. if I'm called on it.. I could just say well, he was warned what would happen, and he needs to learn what it's like to be made late for something important to him.

[Jellyfish]

Some examples of what I consider passive aggressive;

-- Your words say one thing while your tone/attitude/body language/expression indicate otherwise. For example, saying "it's fine" when your tone clearly says otherwise. Basically, to me, this is pretending to be the bigger person while actually being manipulative and deliberately trying to provoke guilt.

-- Taking something somebody says to the extreme; being a matyr. For example, "Could you please call before you visit next time, we are just on the way out", "Don't worry, I won't put you out by stopping by in the future".

-- Responding to something you say by 'joking' about you (undermining you) to somebody else. For example, "I really don't want DD to eat that", "Oh, don't worry DD, you can eat that at my house any time you want".

-- Pretending something you say is a joke when they are aware you are being serious or just completely disregarding something you have said. For example, "We really don't want DD having egg yet" and they turn up with a meal for DD containing egg, big smile and an "Oh well, it is here now better not waste it".

Edit: I think passive aggressiveness is an attempt to induce guilt or assert dominance so as to get what you want. It is the manipulative intent that, in my opinion at least, makes something passive aggressive. The complicated part for me is learning how to make the other party see your point of view without using passive aggressive behaviour or how to accept that they never will understand and move on without that 'just one last comment'.

[Fleur]

Someone earlier posted a link to Wikipedia. This stood out for me:

The book Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man lists 11 responses that may help identify passive-aggressive behavior. [2]

Ambiguity or speaking cryptically: a means of engendering a feeling of insecurity in others
Chronically being late and forgetting things: another way to exert control or to punish.
Fear of competition
Fear of dependency
Fear of intimacy as a means to act out anger: The passive aggressive often cannot trust. Because of this, they guard themselves against becoming intimately attached to someone.
Making chaotic situations
Making excuses for non-performance in work teams
Obstructionism
Sulking
Victimization response: instead of recognizing one's own weaknesses, tendency to blame others for own failures.

This, and your examples Jellyfish are great ones, is the kind of behaviour that i have alwyas thought of as PA. I think a lot of people exhibit it to some extent. Sometimes it's a fear of asserting themselves, sometimes it's because they can't be bothered having the energy to do so.

A lot of the examples in this thread though are just mean & nasty. I wouldn't argue that it's not PA behaviour, just not what normally comes to mind for me. I would look at the is kind of behaviour & think "well they're just a *****"...

I see PA behaviour in people I know and love and I know it's more to do with a fear of direct confrontation than any real malice.

So can you? / how do you? separate PA behaviour in those who do it because they don't know any differently, or have a fear or confrontation etc, to those who are just plain nasty....