Passive Aggression... Why?

[Liz]

Edit: I think passive aggressiveness is an attempt to induce guilt or assert dominance so as to get what you want. It is the manipulative intent that for me, makes something passive aggressive. The complicated part for me is learning, in difficult situations, how to make the other party see your point of view without using passive aggressive behaviour.

Completely agree with this. And you know what.. I come up with LOADS of PA ideas LOL. but I tend not to carry them out. Such as making DH late for his train tomorrow.. I know I won't do it.. cos it's mean and doesn't help anything.

So I actually have a lot of PA thinking.. sometimes it spills out, as I said before, but generally they are just *****y thoughts in my head that I wouldn't really carry out. It is hard to come up with solutions for some things that don't rely on some sort of PA behaviour, especially as it seems pretty much anything we do to make our point is seen as PA. I mean really.. i DO want DH to change and pick up his socks and be on time.. so I'm trying to get him to do what I want... doesn't matter how polite I make the conversation, the end result is I want him to do what I want.. so that's nothing short of PA lol.

[Jellyfish]

Some examples of what I consider passive aggressive;

-- Your words say one thing while your tone/attitude/body language/expression indicate otherwise. For example, saying "it's fine" when your tone clearly says otherwise. Basically, to me, this is pretending to be the bigger person while actually being manipulative and deliberately trying to provoke guilt.

-- Taking something somebody says to the extreme; being a matyr. For example, "Could you please call before you visit next time, we are just on the way out", "Don't worry, I won't put you out by stopping by in the future".

-- Responding to something you say by 'joking' about you (undermining you) to somebody else. For example, "I really don't want DD to eat that", "Oh, don't worry DD, you can eat that at my house any time you want".

-- Pretending something you say is a joke when they are aware you are being serious or just completely disregarding something you have said. For example, "We really don't want DD having egg yet" and they turn up with a meal for DD containing egg, big smile and an "Oh well, it is here now better not waste it".

Edit: I think passive aggressiveness is an attempt to induce guilt or assert dominance so as to get what you want. It is the manipulative intent that, in my opinion at least, makes something passive aggressive. The complicated part for me is learning how to make the other party see your point of view without using passive aggressive behaviour or how to accept that they never will understand and move on without that 'just one last comment'.

Sorry, been doing a lot of editing tonight because I keep thinking the sentence doesn't look quite right but I wanted to add on to this so...

The passive part comes from the elusiveness of the behaviour. It is aggression that is disguised as something else; usually either ignorance/obliviousness (in the case of asserting dominance [third and fourth examples]) or doing you a favour (being a martyr [first and second examples]). This gives the person an easy out to claim innocence when confronted which I think is why it is such a frustrating thing to deal with.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Liz, I just tell DH that if he doesn't put his clothes in the basket then I won't wash them. 10% of the time I do, as sometimes I am at the bottom of the basket and can fit in his stuff. But he has run out of work shirts before. That is his problem. He dropped them on the floor 5m from the basket. (I will deal with fall-out, but not if he made no attempt.)

I don't deliberately make DH late. It has happened accidentally in the past: we turned up bang on time for lunch at his mother's house, who then made us wait another hour for an over-cooked lunch (we were supposed to get there an hour early, don't know why). I have told DH other times that if he wants to go earlier, he can get DS dressed. If he doesn't, I won't rush DS. That''s his choice: TV or get DS ready. DS is not my sole responsibility.

I think this behaviour is OK. It is giving my husband a reasonable choice with clear consequences. To which I stick. PA behaviour would be not asking DH to help get DS dressed so I could eat breakfast, then saying when DH asked what took us so long that I have to do everything and he can't see what needs doing. Then when we got to where we were going, apologising for being late because "DH doesn't realise DS isn't too great at dressing himself yet, haha!" My problem for not asking DH to do something different (he leaves home before DS wakes up usually, so I generally do the dressing of DS even at weekends), then blaming him by making him look stupid.

[Lulu]

Liz, to clarify - I was using the example of driving off on xp as drawing boundaries, I don't think Astrid removing herself from a situation was being PA.

The 'late' behaviour again was a pattern, in fact every time I had to work at night xp found a way to make me late and every time I was a quivering mess because it was completely stuffing up my business.
I can't work out if he was being PA himself, there was no payoff, he didn't achieve anything (I refused to react) except ruining the relationship. I think it was just the way he was, and I had to draw a boundary.

Jellyfish brings perfect examples to the discussion.

Constant lateness may just be the way some people are - and that's a whole different story!

[Liz]

It is aggression that is disguised as something else; usually either ignorance/obliviousness (in the case of asserting dominance [third and fourth examples]) or doing you a favour (being a martyr [first and second examples]). This gives the person an easy out to claim innocence when confronted which I think is why it is such a frustrating thing to deal with.

Your examples are kind of obvious aggression tho. Backhanded comments that obviously have intent.

But saying that laziness or forgetfulness is PA is assuming intent. I wouldn't assume that DH's behaviour is PA as what a miserable life I would lead believing my husband was mean and manipulative! LOL. I wouldn't like to think people assume there is intent on our part because we're late when we go out.

I would think DH's socks on the floor are habitual.. enabled by me picking the darn things up all the time LOL. I really don't see malicious intent disguised by forgetfulness in it. Whereas me leaving them there and him running out of socks I see as manipulative on my part, cos it would be a "see how he likes running out of clean socks" kind of thing (even if I warned him), when it IS me who does the washing, i'd just like it all put in the hamper. And yet this is being disguised as 'teaching consequences'. I just need to try and break his habit of going into the office and removing shoes & socks. Catch him before he does it and remind him to take them off elsewhere so he can put them in the hamper.

I really think if everyday stuff is taken as PA you would think the world is out to get you and it would be a very miserable existence. I see laziness and even lateness as self serving.. not as mean & manipulative.. which is what I believe PA is. Just as in other threads about nobody can make you feel that way.. there must be an element of over-sensitivity if everyday stuff is deemed to be PA and believing people are being mean and manipulative all the time.

Dh could run late because he doesn't really want to go and subconsciously drags his feet... not cos he's out to get me or to make me look bad. I dunno... I just feel some things are over analysed and taken too personally.

To me, PA is fairly obvious, not disguised. Yes they throw on a disguise as an excuse if called on it, but the intent is blaringly obvious in that first instance.. body language and tone of voice are usually a give away (I'm sure I have a look in my eye when I'm being PA.. in fact I know I do.. and I don't like it). Which is why I don't believe DH's ongoing "I was going to pick them up" is PA.. as in DH's weird little ADD world he probably was going to.. just who knows when? LOL. He cleans up his part of the office now & then LOL.

ETA: yep Lulu - I agree that those things are really something else. Jellyfish's examples are what I see as PA too.. obvious underhanded comments.

[Lulu]

I would think DH's socks on the floor are habitual.. enabled by me picking the darn things up all the time LOL. I really don't see malicious intent disguised by forgetfulness in it. Whereas me leaving them there and him running out of socks I see as manipulative on my part, cos it would be a "see how he likes running out of clean socks" kind of thing (even if I warned him), when it IS me who does the washing, i'd just like it all put in the hamper. And yet this is being disguised as 'teaching consequences'. I just need to try and break his habit of going into the office and removing shoes & socks. Catch him before he does it and remind him to take them off elsewhere so he can put them in the hamper.

Completely off topic -

How is it being disguised though? By saying "put your bloody socks in the hamper cos I'm sick of picking them up to wash them" then following through might make a difference. Right now you are just having to 'pounce on him' to 'break his habit' and that seems like a heap more work to me

[Astrid]

With my example of DH talking whilst I waited in the car, I forgot to add what the normal conversation afterwards.
Me: "Why were you talking, we had agreed to leave. You know I need to get some sleep, I work full-time and study part-time"
DH: "I was networking, help make us a part of the group"
Me: "I understand that, but we were there 4 hours already"
DH: "I am doing this for you (guilt trip), you are just not good at these things (insult), I just want to make sure we are welcomed in the group"

Now if he had just said "sorry, I was enjoying the chat" it would have just been one of those things, but he had to blame me and make me feel like I should be thankful for being made to wait in the car.

I did read something on people with chronic lateness, it is not that they don't wont to be on time, be with you etc, it is that they have trouble finishing what they are currently doing.

Lulu - I get you on the not being able to trust then when it comes to you going out and doing things.

[Liz]

Astrid - aaah... yep... I agree that that is PA Well.. the comments are.. .maybe not the chatting itself.. but the defensive mean reaction definitely is.

Lulu - I dunnoooooo!! LOL. Because I feel mean doing it.. I would be doing it out of frustration and spite. I've stormed around the house before and done a weeks worth of washing and left them behind saying I'm not washing them cos they're not in the hamper. He'll then gather them up and put them in the hamper.. but it's back to old ways very quickly. I still don't believe it's to spite me.. it's just his habit. If I stormed around the house each day.. it probably would turn into him throwing them on the floor thinking "I'm not gonna help that angry biartch" LOL. Maybe I need a thread on how to deal with forgetful/distracted ADD grown ups! LOL. He's always back and forth to his computer adding to his lists or looking something up so he doesn't forget, and he just doesn't finish things in one go. So that goes for his stripping off when he gets home too... mid-change he gets distracted.. then he finishes taking off socks or whatever, wherever he happens to be. Maybe it's not habit so much as his distraction! LOL. *sigh* I lead a frustrating life - not a miserable PA one LOL. He does too.. cos when I say "why can't you just put them in the hamper?" his answer is "I forgot" or "I was going to" and he gets frustrated with himself that he never gets around to stuff. So labelling those responses automatically as PA I think isn't right.. I see it as assuming intent as I said before.

hmmm... maybe if I email him or setup reminders on his calandar to pick up his clothes and put them in the hamper. That might work! LOL. Sorry.. have gone a bit off topic now! I will stop discussing my DH in here lol.

[Lulu]

last ot one then!

Why don't you get a small wicker basket for the office...right under his desk? lol

[fionas]

Liz, I have the same problem with my DP and he says he has a touch of ADD himself.

He finds it very difficult to complete a job. Dishes can be soaked for days (even if they've only been used to boil pasta) rather than washed in 30 seconds. Yesterday, he left a clump of congealed milk in the sink saying he would rather put it in the bin than rinse it down there - that was left there for 14 hours. Lucky we have two sinks. He also is very bad at putting stuff in the laundry hamper or putting anything away.

I used to feel mean too at not washing his stuff or throwing his stuff away (bits of papers left all over dining table, old magazines, birthday cards from years ago) but now I don't worry about it because it makes me too mad not to do anything and reminding him only works so much. I don't see why I should continually get frustrated when there's a quick solution. I'm a bit past caring what the label is or the deep psychological explanation for why it's happening, I just don't want dirty washing next to the laundry hamper and I don't want crap all over the dining table. End of.

I do agree with you that it would be a miserable world if we interpreted our DP's actions as PA. I prefer to see it as chronic hopelessness but that doesn't mean that I do nothing about it.

Basically, I've spent way too much time in the past trying to analyse DP and work out gentle solutions, none of which seem to work. I really resent the amount of time and headspace this has taken up so now I go for the quick solution. Sure, he thinks I'm a meanie for two seconds but it's over and done with much more quickly and we move on.

[Lulu]

Does anyone want to start a ADD/Forgetful partner thread? We could continue the discussion there and keep working the PA stuff in here....

[Liz]

. I prefer to see it as chronic hopelessness

LOL yes! Trouble is I can't find long-lasting solutions. We can have nice calm(ish) discussions on how frustrating it is for me etc.. he'll help out more or whatever for a week or 2, but it never lasts. So me having a tanty and refusing to do it just doesn't work long term.. I just end up chucking more tanties. PA doesn't work on him, neither does outright aggression, neither does nice calm assertiveness. Maybe I'm just a chronic dreamer that I'll have a husband that'll pick up his clothes LOL.

Lulu - LOL.. yeah could do! Would be interesting to see if they made it into THAT basket!

[Astrid]

I think it is not that we spend all our waking moments analysing our partners, it is more that we finally have a light bulb moment about some of their behaviour. We can look back and go "oh, that is what was happening". It can help you move on a bit and not feel so bad about yourself.

[Jennifer13]

Most of my DP's behaviour is not PA, although he's been brought up in a completely PA way, so when we're arguing/disagreeing a LOT of PA comments are introduced. That's learned behaviour. So I have to change my reaction to stop these comments being effective.

His behaviour in general is not PA though. When I started going out with him I swear he kept most clothes (clean and dirty) on the floor. NOT to annoy me, but just out of habit. Like Inanna said, it's MY problem that it's annoying (and sometimes his when he couldn't find clothes, but then again, became my problem because we're both running around looking for something!). So you need a solution to an annoying habit, not a drawn-out conflict (laundry-gate!). Ours was easy, I'm fine to put away clean clothes. DP does the washing often enough to be helpful, so I'm happy to take care of hanging/folding/etc. If I ask him, he'll do some. I got a laundry hamper for the bedroom and every bathroom, as well as the laundry. You'd trip over a hamper trying to drop your clothes on the floor it's that obvious. It's only very occasionally that clothes are left elsewhere, but because it is, I'm happy to pick up the odd item, same as for DD.

I think it's the intent, like Liz said. DP never intended to annoy the heck out of me by carpeting the floors with clothing, it was just his way. I found a solution so I didn't get annoyed. I think it took me two years to come up with the solution, but it was an instant success! If he had been deliberately trying to find ways to annoy and upset me through his laundry habits, that would have been PA. Don't forget there has to be 'aggression' in 'passive aggression'. It's just the aggression is thinly veiled.

My MIL uses PA out of habit, I don't think she even knows she is doing it. We've asked she doesn't offer DD gifts, or bring things for her without checking with us first (looong story). So DP drops by yesterday so DD could say hello because we'll be away all Easter. About six times she tells DD in front of DP, "you can have this, but you need to check with Daddy, can she have this?" DP then says "no, thanks Granny, but that's okay" and has to play the bad guy. When it's time to go and he's given DD a five minute warning and then MIL insists that she has to show DD one more thing, then another thing, then another to delay him (he had to be at home to meet me), DP had to turn around and say, "we have to go, if you aren't going to cooperate here, then we won't visit again." And all this in less than half an hour! There's more, but I won't go on.

MIL would deny it, but her intent was to go against something we've asked her to respect. It's not evil, in the sense that no one's health/well being is at risk, but oh boy does it make it draining to deal with her. All you want to do is stay away from someone who makes even the smallest of things so intensely frustrating! And with the big things, well then they do become emotionally damaging IME.

[LionsandBears]

As I've mentioned on the partners with ADD thread, I have ADD (newly diagnosed last year). I agree that ADD behaviour can seem PA. I believe I inherited ADD off my Dad, the one who is PA and because of whom I often have an almost violent reaction against perceived PA behaviour. I do believe some of his behaviour can be ADD - not able to get ready in time, going off tangent when trying to get something done "I'll just go look it up on the computer" etc. Yes, it's inconsiderate and self-absorbed, but no, it's not malicious - he thinks he's being helpful and wonders why people get upset with him for it....

However, there is also PA behaviour - having been asked to do or not do something for a valid reason, to deliberatley do the opposite with a smirk on his face - that's PA. It can be a small thing (not doing the dishes), or it can be a large thing (going guarantor for a loan after it had already been agreed not to, for various important reasons - the final straw in my parent's marriage). It's the pattern over years that causes the damage.

Astrid - from that conversation, yes I would agree that's PA. It's dismissive, patronising and disrespectful towards you whilst trying to seem "helpful".

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

This is a great thread - teaching me a LOT!

I really only have one person who suffers from chronic PA in my life, and after suggestion in this thread, as well as an overwhelming desire to make her understand just how much trouble she is causing, I have decided to send her a letter. This isn't out of the blue, it's to do with the party plan that I recently quit, and ongoing issues in regards to that. Just this morning I found out some more info from HO, and it has been the final straw, I'm tired of just putting it under the rug and forgetting about it.

So below is the final part of the letter I want to send - The first part is just reviewing the recent issues we have had, and clarifying AGAIN my own position, which was completely neutral the whole time - I am actually collateral damage from a bustup between her and my manager.

Let me know what you think, I wanna make sure I'm not being nasty or not understanding...

You always encouraged us, as consultants, to treat our parties and customers as a business. I feel that your conduct in this matter has been highly unprofessional, and you have let your personal issues and perceived personal slights get in the way of running your business. If you have been upset by anything you feel I have done to you, I would encourage you to contact me personally, either by email or phone call, rather than playing these passive aggressive games.

I am unsure of what your reaction to this email will be. I understand that sometimes situations can get away from us, and before we know it, we have done something that we later regret; I have been in this situation myself. Given that we are both adults, I am hoping that a reasonable agreement can be reached, and we can each continue on with life. But please understand, I am now out almost $100, which is not money I can afford to just give up, so I will be pursuing this further with Head Office if I cannot resolve it with you.

[Rouge]

I would change the bit about passive aggressive games. I would change it to something like "because at the moment I feel as though the way you are coming across as quite passive aggressive."

[Inanna]

Liz as I said earlier there are many many personality disorders/behaviours PA is just one. It is often not conscious so therefore is a "usual" reaction to situations for that particular person...
However, leaving clothes on the floor as you say can just be what he does. Frustrating for someone like myself who likes everything put away! But not necessarily PA.

I personally would challenge that any manipulative behaviour to secure the outcome you want could be PA... Aggression is forcefully getting your own way. To do so passively one does it cloaked... Or like others have said the sigh "I just won't bother trying to help next time you obviously don't appreciate it"... It's having a verbal tanty. Leaving clothes on the floor can just be a habit. Not done to manipulate. My ex husband would do things that I had clearly communicated bugged me just to get a reaction. So, for me it bugs me to not make the bed. That's my problem so I was always the one to make it. But he would make comments to other people that "miss hospital corners has to have the bed made"... It's a dig about an idiosyncracy that I fully accept is wierd to some - but for me it's me and I am happy to take care of the bed making...

So the above example is PA... If I was to react with a sulk or slam the door and walk out when he said it... Or reply with: "shall we talk of some of your wierd habits"? To me I would be retaliating with a PA response. Thus, I believe feeding it.

If I was to reply with: "yes, it is important to me to make the bed & that's why I am happy to do it"... It is stating it as it is - not using emotions or words or intonation to manipulate.

That's just my take.

Berenice: It sounds like you've had a difficult situation to deal with. Personally I would explore what you want to acheive from writing the letter/email? What is your goal?

Often the need to write to someone is a need to be heard, be right or to seek an acknowledgement. This is very rarely gained from someone who is using manipulative techniques to get what they want.

I think that what you've written is important for you (I totally get what you are saying & where you're coming from - most of us have had similar experiences through life) - and maybe it's a letter you write and offer up to the ether/God/Goddess/Universe... Or maybe you will decide to send it. However, I would if it were me be careful to analyse anothers perceived faults... I think it is likely to be taken in a less than favourable light. It's a fairly thick skinned person that can hear such a straight forward analysis of what their faults are...

Just my 5c!