Ethics of artificial sex selection

[Keta]

I have an aunt who has three boys. Growing up we all new she dreamed of a girl. I was spoilt rotten because I was the daughter she never had. I find it sad that the image I was given was that having all boys is 'bad'. I feel even sadder for her sons. If she was given the opportunity to select the sex I believe she would have done so. I don't believe it would have made her happy though. Something else is missing if there is that much difficulty accepting you have three healthy and lovely boys.

As someone who has struggled to fall pregnant it is even harder to comprehend why the gender matters so much. However this I guess has more to do with my experience. For medical reasons I can see the a place for gender selection.

[MummyNaomi]

I too have a problem with gender selection - and it totally stems from our TTC journey. After going through the heartbreak that we may not even realise our dream of having a family, it made me very judgemental of people who have a family all the same gender who don't realise the gift they have - healthy children regardless of gender.

I think that issues with infertility, stillbirth, miscarriage etc put it all in perspective for us - suddenly the very importance of having a healthy baby/child is so much more important than what colour they are.

We have a DS, the baby we are currently cooking is our DD. Since telling people we are carrying a girl, I have at times been quite dumbfounded by the comments made of "Oh, a perfect family, one of each, how perfect etc etc etc" Don't get me wrong, I am delighted to be having a daughter, I have a great relationship with my own mum and hope to have the same with my own child, and experience her having children (hopefully) etc etc, but I can 100% say that I would be equally delighted with another son. At times I have been a little shocked at people putting such high value on having both genders in the family.

I am totally against gender selection from an IVF/ART perspective, creating healthy embryo's only to discard them based on gender is so totally totally wrong in my mind. I know some people don't agree with IVF as they think that it's over-riding nature's way of 'natural selection', however I totally disagree as these days infertility is just as much an environmental issue as a medical one (eg working in factories, being exposed to chemicals etc) are considered big impacts to fertility. We have created a lot of infertility issues, on top of those already 'naturally' occuring ITMS. Anyway, my point is I think its ok to rectify medical issues with treatments (Eg IVF), but the wrong gender is NOT a medical issue.

As for gender selection based on medical issues affecting a certain sex in the family, I'm not totally against it - for example if a certain gender was impacted by a life threatening disease I am open to it - but it would have to be massively severe/debilitating/reducing life expectancy/quality of life etc

[foreva*your*mummy]

I am obviously a person that has written alot about this lately and the need I feel to have a daughter, I have also read and re read this thread deciding weather to put my point of view on here. I see that you all are against what I have been talking about. I honestly cannot explain the reasons for the feelings. I feel like I am missing out on something if I never have a daughter I asume it is a different kind of mothering that I would love to experience. I dont know if I would ever do the gender selecting, the money is a huge issue, and I dont think I would put my family through doing it.
There are a few things that upset me Lenny mentioned that the unselected children would be damaged and feel like they have failed their parents, so does this not mean that you should be happy with 1 child? wouldnt the first child feel like they had failed the parents because they where not good enough, so you had to have more children?.

I understand that this site has many different people with alot of different reasons for being here so I get that we all have opinions but to hear that if its not what god, the universe, higher power wanted to select the right gender. Isnt it the same thing when someone cannot get pregnant? is that god saying you where not meant to have children?

This is just my view, I wanted to show the different side of the coin, the feelings of someone who would love to just experience what it was like to have a DD. We are trying for number 4 baby because this is what we feel will finish our family. We are swaying for a little girl if you can do such a thing to change the outcome. If its gods will we will have another DS and he will be just as loved as the 3 boys we already have.

[Sunny Love]

Thank you for sharing another side to the coin foreva*your*mummy, believe me, all opinions matter and are genuine.
Thanks for having the bravery to voice them.
xx

[foreva*your*mummy]

Thankyou sunny that really means alot you brought tears to my eyes saying that, I was really worried about putting it out there and upsetting people. It is a real feeling for alot of people but we all must travell on the path we are given and do what we thing is right for our families.

[Sunny Love]

Your desire to have a daughter feels as natural to you as another womans desire to just be pregnant or bring home a live baby. All warranted, and all natural to that person.
xx

[Sunny Love]

FYM - I do understand why you'd want to have a daughter, don't get me wrong, but I think you seriously need to understand that there are NO guarantee's with IVF.

foreva*your*mummy touched on this point in her last sentence.

[onthefly]

I guess the difficulty is in understanding the leap between yearning for a child of a particular gender - and facing the grief of missing out on that - and actively discarding embryos of the other gender....

On the face of it, it does seem a little like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[Sunny Love]

I doubt that MOST poeple would consider such an action as lightly as throwing out bathwater. Sorry, but that was insensitive, and maybe judgemental.

[onthefly]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that literally, of course. My point was in the lack of comprehension - coming at it from completely different view points. To someone who cannot empathise with the position of the parents, it might seem this way.

[foreva*your*mummy]

I dont think if someone is going to go through gender selection that they would make that decision lightly at all, I would think if a family is willing to spend that amount of money, time and emotion on something it would be an extremely hard decision to make. You cant judge people on their choices, you can listen to all sides and make decisions that are right for you. I have 3 amazing beautiful little men who are healthy and happy. To me that is the most important thing in the world, I would never change my boys for even 1 girl, its not about that its the desire to experience all aspects of motherhood and to ME that is also being a mother to a little girl.

Mummynaomi, you took this out of context, I totally believe in IVF I think its an amazing thing, but when poeple talk about what god delt you then isnt it the same thing. i get 4 boys and some poeple dont have children. I wasnt the one who brought up god and a higher universe. I also completly understand there are no garentees in it, IF my family was to go down this path we would do it knowing all the facts. I understand the emotional rollercoaster with IVF I have had a couple of very close friends go through this

[Sopdet]

Much as I want a girl for religious reasons, there is no way I would go through AC and discard an embryo just because it was male.

I just want a baby to be earthside and healthy, I don't care about the sex of it.

The only time I'd consider sex selection is for medical reasons, if my OH and I were both carrying the recessive gene that would impact on one sex, then I would consider selection then.

[~ Mylitta ~]

personally, i do have an issue with IVF/PGD for gender selection based purely on a WANT basis. the technology is hard enough for the average person with a medical NEED to access at a reasonable price - if it's to become even MORE commercial than it is already, it's going to make it even more unaffordable for those with a NEED, and I have an issue with that. This isn't about me personally - although I know my experiences will color my view to a degree - it's about making access to medical technology fair and appropriate for those who have an actual need for it. It's about making sure there isn't abuse of available technology just because someone can pay for it.

I totally understand that concern, and I specifically asked my FS about that at my first appointment. I expressed to him my feeling of guilt that I might be taking up time and resources from a couple that were unable to conceive without the IVF system. He responded by asking me "How long did it take you to get an appointment with me?". It took me just under two weeks, and that was even with him only consulting at the clinic 2-3 days a week. He then explained to me that the IVF system is generally only stressed for time and resources in more remote areas where clinics only run periodically. He said that if IVF with PGD for gender selection became available for any couples it would actually increase the amount of money coming into the IVF system (especially considering medicare and PHI wouldn't cover anything) and that it would result in added resources in the long run, and therefore actually benefit infertile couples. I was rather surprised when he told me all that, but it certainly made me feel less guilty.

[Freya]

The viewpoint of going against nature could be used for alot of artificial technology these days, not just limited to gender determination in ART for whatever reason. People could reason that using IVF when its clear nature doesnt intend for you to have children is selfish or wrong. I dont personally believe that, but Im just trying to show how far thinking along those lines could be taken. Who's right is it to draw a line?

I have a gender yearning. I wouldnt call it disappointment because I am in no way disappointed that I have 3 beautiful boys. Would I use PGD to have a better chance of conceiving a girl were it available to me? I cant say no with conviction. Funnily enough I straddle the divide between 'selfish' yearning for a specific gender and facing the possibility of not having a baby due to recurrent miscarriage. At this point in time my yearning for a healthy baby outweighs my yearning for a daughter; but let me tell you its a heck of a position to be in!

[~ Mylitta ~]

I personally don't have any problem with gender selection for any reason. I think the easiest way to explain my reasons for feeling this way is to state why I disagree with and comment on many of the arguments that are often used against it. I'm by no means saying that I'm right and others are wrong, because I think each individuals view on a topic like this is a product of their beliefs and experiences.


I'll take other people's comments only in order to comment on them as they are what many people think, not to be personal with that poster.

"To create life in the form of an embryo and reject it based solely on sex seems abhorrent to me."
I can certainly understand why people would feel this way. Of course it depends on when you believe a person is created. Some think it's at conception, others when the embryo becomes a fetus, others when the baby is born. Personally I believe a person is all they can be after conception takes place as they now have the total genetic makeup that could make them into a human being. Having said that you might think that I am against creating embryos that may be destroyed. But that would mean I would have to be against all forms of ART/IVF procedures that may result in extra embryos that never get used and ultimately are destroyed, and I'm not. I don't see much difference in destroying embryos for gender purposes versus destrying them because more fertilised than were needed. I guess I tend to ask the question of those against embryos being created that may not be used is, if you went through IVF to conceive and had extra embryos would you use every single one even if you felt your family was complete? Yes there is certainly a difference between couples undergoing IVF for fertility reasons and those for gender selection, but the end outcome of destroyed embryos can be the same in both.

"culture like China or India, where one sex is valued more than the other"
I've read many times that people are against gender selection because if it was allowed in countries with a gender preference the population would become saturated with one gender. This is possibly correct to some degree, but no culture would ever get to the point where they only have one gender left and are unable to procreate. It's almost a situation of supply and demand. If one gender became extremely short in supply, the demand for it would go up. Surely the gender in short supply would become "more desirable" than previously and the imbalance would level out at some point. Also, in a country like China where there is a severe over population problem I don't see how a lower population growth rate due to gender imbalance would necessarily be a bad thing.

"If the choice was supposed to be ours, it wouldn't be a biological process."
I guess this is largely a religious sort of dilemma. If God wanted the choice to be ours then he would have made it possible? Perhaps he did by giving us the mental capacity to be able to create the process to do what we can...

"I think the children who were genetically selected have an enomous amount of pressure on them to fulfill their parents dreams of them"
I believe we all have hopes and dreams for all of our children regardless of how they are brought into the world. Would a parent who was able to fall pregnant naturally once, then needed to use IVF for a subsequent child feel any differently toward each of their children? Would the IVF baby feel more pressure to succeed due to the finances that were spent on conceiving it? I personally don't think so based on my equal love, affection and dreams for my three kids. If you mean that a parent would be disappointed if a child they gender selected didn't fit the stereotype for that gender (like pink, fluffy, girly or blue, rugged, and rough), I also don't think this would be an issue. Like someone else said, each child is individual and some girls can be tomboys, whilst some boys can have very feminine qualities. I think the majority of people are aware it's the "luck of the draw" in the personality department.

"I couldn't help thinking that what if after all that, the pregnancy never progressed to full term..getting pregnant and staying pregnant is so emotional anyway, but to go through all that extra emotional and financial strain, just for a particular sex?"
I hate the term 'Gender dissapointment' because I feel it applies that someone doesn't love an existing child of a particular gender because it's not what they wanted. I don't believe this is true in most cases. The parent loves the child, but can't help but mourn the dream of a child they may never have. I mention this because the above sort of statement implies that the emotional stress of IVF and pregnancy and the finances involved would be greater than those that might possibly be experienced by having a child of the less desired gender and suffering gender dissapointment (which may include PND) and possibly require proffesional counselling.

"The cost..... it's not really fair on your existing children is it?"
What if finances are not an issue? Is it ok then?

"I think god, the universe, our higher power only deals us cards that we can deal with."
This is similar to one of the comments above. It makes me ask the question of whether people with this belief think that infertile couples shouldn't be able to use IVF either?

"why would anyone put themselves through that if they didn't have to"
"I just, as many others on here want, a healthy full term alive baby so I guess I don't understand why the gender would drive people to do this"
The fact that people are willing to go through the process to achieve their dream should show how passionate they are. The desire that many couples feel to simply have a live baby might be very similar to the desire someone feels for a baby of particular gender. Our emotions are so individual that there is no was to quantify desire and say that one person's desire is greater than another's.

"many of us might not be here if our parents got to choose our sex"
If you father ejaculated even a fraction of a second later a different sperm (or none!) might have made it to the egg instead and hence you might not be here... No further comment

"I just don't get how someone could love/want one sex more than another"
What about if a woman had been subjected to rape and molestation at the hands of a male and was desperately afraid of having a girl for fear it would also hapen to her? Or on the other hand, desperately afraid of having a boy that might DO the same? Surely in some instances it's completely understandable to see why some people may prefer one gender over another (not just in cases like this, but other situations as well). Of course I believe that those psychological issues may be overcome, but I also believe that it could be an easier path for some if they were able to gender select. It's similar to the case that Traveller mentioned.

"I realise that gender disappointment is real, but it's something I don't understand.."
I think that is a really crucial point when it comes to an issue like this. It's very hard to see the other side when you haven't walked another's path.

"it made me very judgemental of people who have a family all the same gender who don't realise the gift they have"
I don't think there are many parent's out there that don't realise the gift they have. It's more about grieving the gift you don't have. You can love your children to the moon and back and still feel that something is missing.

"but the wrong gender is NOT a medical issue"
Techinically it sort of can be. A study has shown that males who have more than one of a particular gender is more likely to conceive the same gender again. The results showed that a male with 4 of one gender already had at least an 80% chance of conceiving the same gender again. The 50:50 ratio isn't medically true and many factors can make it more likely for a father to produce more (or healthier) X or Y sperm. So it raises the question of whether it's ok to use science to correct this medical issue that may or may not be caused by nature in the male.

"The IVF journey to conceive a baby is hard enough, let alone trying to get one of a particular sex"
The journey simply to conceive is difficult too, as I know you know. But it took me 9 months (and a heart breaking miscarriage) to naturally conceive my baby boy, and only 3 months (2 cycles) of IVF to get my first daughter. For me personally the 9 months and the loss of my first precious baby was harder than my IVF journey. At least after having PGD I knew my embryo was chromosomally healthy and had a better chance of survival and not resulting in miscarriage than a baby not PGD tested (which as a 3 day old embryo has about at 50% chance of chromosome abnormalities which make it "incompatible with life" according to my IVF geneticist).

"she has categorically decided with her doctors to terminate if its male"
I believe that access to gender selection would reduce infanticide and abortion rates. A plus in my books.

" Because somewhere along the line, someone is deciding which embryo to implant: the specialists can look at development, health and chromosomes and ultimately someone is making that call...why not the parents?"
I agree. If there are two suitable embryos for transfer and they happen to be of differing genders, what does it matter if the parents decide which they would prefer?

"Would you be comfortable with sperm sorting (sorting x sperm from Y sperm) and then only using the selected sex sperm to fertilise the egg?"
A very good question! Many clinics in America use sperm sorting techniques to gender select, therefore there are no extra embryos to potentially be discarded. The success rate is no where near as accurate as PGD though where the sex chromosomes are looked at and the only error can be human error. I'm sure if you told a clinic that you only wanted one egg per cycle fertilised with a sperm that had been sorted, they would probably do it. But your chances of fertilisation, correct growth, implantation and successful pregnancy would be greatly affected. But, would that be ethically ok because there are no extra embryos?

"What next? Want only blue eyes, only tall children?"
I don't think most people realise what a massive leap it is from gender selection to so-called "designer babies". With gender selection you are talking about having a particular chomosome looked at to determine the sex. At the same time they usually look at a number of other chromosomes to make sure the embryo is chromosomally normal. We only have 23 pairs of chromosomes (so 46 chromosomes). Each of the chromosomes are made up of hundreds to thousands of genes to make up a total of over 25,000 genes in our genome. Specific traits are not defined by a single gene on a single chromosome. Even something like eye colour is defined by a number of genes. In order to make a baby with a particular eye colour you wouldn't simply be talking about looking at a single gene and selecting an embryo with that gene, you are talking about science advancing to the point where we are able to splice every single gene involved in a particular trait, create the genes we want, and replace them in the genome. Not to mention that many genes affect more than one trait as well. We are so far away from that technology that gender selection and designer babies are so different that they are not even distant cousins.


I think I should stop my essay now. Once again I want to mention that none of my comments are directed personally at anyone, and I respect each person's thoughts and beliefs. Like I mentioned, it's an extremely personal topic for everyone and is based on individual beliefs and experiences that all have merit. There is certainly no right or wrong with a topic like this. But it certainly makes for an awesome discussion!!!

[meow]

I have NO issue whatsoever with gender selection for family balancing. That is, once a family has had one child through natural gender selection then I think they can go for their lives and have IVF to select the gender of their child if that's what rocks their boat. I seriously just don't see the problem with people doing that if they want

For me personally, I have two sons and I have suffered gender yearning for a girl. It doesn't seem to be as strong now but I am still intrigued by using IVF for gender selection and given that it's legal where I am currently living I am going to actively research it just to know what it costs and what is involved so that I fully understand my choices.

I am well aware that IVF is difficult physically and emotionally and I am very blessed not to need it. I do not take the idea lightly and I think it would be this point that would be the biggest factor in stopping me from doing it as I really don't want to go through IVF.

Then there's the cost. Yes, the idea of limiting my family's lifestyle for gender selection does also concern me. If it cost $5K then maybe? My homebirth cost $5K and I didn't HAVE to it but I saw it as a time in our family where my baby & I were worth the money so we spent it. I'm pondering at what cost my longing for a daughter, and bringing her into existence, is worth it. But whether or not we can even have another baby is an important consideration for our family. My eldest son needs a great deal of my time and having a baby would deprive him of that time so he would lose out and as such we wont be having baby any time soon, if at all. Creating babies is always a consideration for the whole family, so I think just saying the cost is not fair on the rest of the family is a moot point.

As for discarding embryos- if there were any more embryos than the one it took for me to get pregnant then I wouldn't want to use them, regardless of gender. I have no qualms with embryo donation so I would donate them. If I only had boy embryos then I would still happily donate them and either try another IVF cycle or decide it's time to TTC naturally and get whatever we got. Which still excites me, because I love my little boys SO very much and another one would never, ever be a hardship.

As to why I feel gender yearnings for a girl. No, it is not so I can dress her in pink or go girly shopping. I don't do those things myself and I don't want a girl so she can fit the stereotype of being a girl. Men and women ARE different. When I picture having a girl I envisage having a woman. Having a child who I have that life long parent/child relationship with who is a woman and relates to me from that perspective. If she has children, then discussing my labours & breastfeeding journies with her, and having her relate because I'm her mother and it holds a personal meaning to her. I wouldn't care at all if she was a tomboy. If she turned out to be transgender then yes, I probably would have a quiet chuckle to myself about why on earth we went through IVF to have her (not that we had her at all, just that we used IVF to do it) and I wouldn't bother if I knew that in advance, but naturally I'd still love her, now him, because he would be my child and that would be the main thing.

[LionsandBears]

Mylitta- thank you for your essay. It's certainly helped me see the other side better. I dont know that I'm
convinced, but I dont feel as judgemental as I originally did.

[MummyNaomi]

Isnt it the same thing when someone cannot get pregnant? is that god saying you where not meant to have children?

No its not the same - A medical issue preventing successful conception is exactly that - a medical issue that has a treatment.
Not conceiving the gender you wanted isn't a medical issue - it's taking a punt on the 50/50 odds of which sperm get to the egg first and not winning the bet.
I must admit I get frustrated by this mentality. Should Cancer patients just accept their lot in life and accept that's just natures way of getting rid of the weak? No way!! Medical Science should be used appropriately and ethically to treat medical issues.

FYM - I do understand why you'd want to have a daughter, don't get me wrong, but I think you seriously need to understand that there are NO guarantee's with IVF, conceiving in one cycle is very rare, the emotional rollercoaster is very very difficult, the medical journey is tough on your body, and the expense throws even a higher income family into a spin. I would never put DH and I through an IVF cycle if we could conceive naturally. It impacts EVERY part of your life and relationships and is totally consuming.