Controversial thread : Sex after baby

[Arcadia]

No worries JM...I actually really like your points

[misty]

misty - you cannot sit there and tell me i have not been exhausted, you do not know what situations ive been in or how sick i was.

i didnt come into this thread to be attacked, mearly to share my opinions, i dont care if you didnt like my opinion, but everyone else is allowed to express theirs and i will too!

as for the other ladies, THANKYOU for your support!

out!

I am sorry if you are feeling attacked. That has never been my intention. And certainly I do not beleive that I have actually written anything that is 'attacking'. I completely disagree with you, and I have tried to address the issues directly that I do disagree with, but not once did I take anything personal, nor infer any personal attack upon anyone in this thread. In fact, I actually took pains to state that your opinion IS valid, even if I personally do happen to think it is based on a lack of personal experience. Nor do I blame you for your opinion or lack of experience - None of us have ever experience everything, and all of us are bias in our own ways; myself included.


PS - EVERYONE, I am truely getting fed up with being accused of attacking people simply because I happen to disagree with something. I may be vocal about my disagreement, but that does NOT mean that there is ANYTHING personal about anything I say, nor do I generally think any less of the person I am disagreeing with. I have yet to find ANYONE whom I agree with on EVERYTHING.

[briggsy's girl]

Hmmm, infidelity is so not about not getting sex after children are born!
When you describe the situation of declining sex as 'habit', then I KNOW you don't actually know what you're talking about.

given i was one of the people that mentioned "habit", i wanted to respond here - as has been mentioned, every relationship is different - and, in some cases, my own included, it can sometimes become habit to just do the same thing - and saying no can be one of those "habits". Sometimes, and as i said, i've been there, it can be easier just to do things the way you've been doing them for X amount of time - and, if sex isn't in that equation, then it IS part of a habit. I have seen it written before in more that one place, about making an effort to have sex every night for a week (as an example) can actually help improve your degree of WANT to the point that side of your relationship changes. i guess i would deem that to be a part of a different habit (and, from personal perspective, this is the case for us - the more we have the more we want). perhaps "habit" isn't a great word to use - but i am speaking from my own experiences, and i don't deem myself clueless! we've been through many different "phases" of our relationship, some far more stressful than most couples i know IRL - so i am speaking not in theory, but as a fact of what has happened for us - and yes, for us, NOT having sex DOES become habit and we have to make a conscious effort to break that "habit".

There was no reference to infidelity in my post because i don't believe infedility is related in the way some conclusions have been made. you can be having sex every night, but not getting your emotional needs met. there are so many "reasons" for people straying - to draw the conclusion that partners are straying en masse because they're not getting enough at home is over simplifying a very complex situation

[Cherished]

i know so many women that knock back their husbands and really, i wouldnt blame them if they strayed.. sex is so important to stay connected to your partner

I take huge offense to this. Are you suggesting that it would be MY fault if my husband had an affair and that I should put out regardless of what's going on? Before you answer that I think you'd better go back and read my post on my situtation.

misty - you cannot sit there and tell me i have not been exhausted, you do not know what situations ive been in or how sick i was.

Noone can tell you how exhausted you've been in your life alish but I'd be surprised if it's anything like being a new mum? There is a reason that sleep deprivation is the best form of torture! Everyone has been sick and everyone has had a huge night or several nights in a row especially in their teen years and their early 20's. Yes we all know what it's like to be exhausted and then totally pass out when your head hits the pillow. That is 'nothing' like what being a new mum is like. There is the pregnancy and then the birth which knocks you for a 6 and then you are up every hour or so feeding the baby and if you're lucky bub will go back to sleep without crying for hours. For me 6 months down the track I am still up feeding my son 3-4 times a night. It's not just having a big week and being exhausted, being a new mum is an exhaustion and a fatigue which you can't catch up on or put your head down and sleep for 10 hours to recover from. The most sleep I've had in a row over the last 6 months is 4 hours and even then the nubmer of times I've had that could be counted on one hand And this is just a new mum scenario let alone having more kids to deal with. I know how patronising it can be to have people tell you that you don't know what you are talking about. But being ignorant to something is pretty common when you haven't actually experienced something. I hope you have a wonderful restful time as a new mum and have the energy to give it up for your hubby as much as you do now all while enjoying the privilege of being a new mum which so many of us have apparently forgoten.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Misty, I haven't discerned you to be attacking, if that helps any
JM, Arcadia, I'm nodding my head furiously at your points.
FWIW (and doesn't seem to be worth much, even though my situation seems to be the subject matter!), I don't talk about this anywhere else. It's not easy to talk about in a society where sex is valued on male terms, and women won't admit to withholding sex because it might make their men look bad.
TBH, I'm not adversely affected by the opinions of posters here who think I've just fallen into a habit, that I'm encouraging infidelity (puhlease!), that I'm selfish (I friggen beg to differ), that I'm playing mind games (my mind is already tired from the gymnastics it plays in this parenting caper) etc. I know you don't know me. There are women who ARE affected by the opinions here and probably won't feel as free to confide on BB about what's going on, for fear of being judged and told it's their own fault. That's why I've been adamant here. Not really for my own sake. My own situation has improved out of sight and the relationship is really doing well. And that's without this regular sex you think is so vital to a relationship. I don't expect you to understand, I don't care that you don't, it would just be nice for you guys to celebrate your relationships on their own merits, not at the expense of relationships you don't know the ins and outs of. Seriously, you're making unwarranted judgments that aren't helpful.
JM - your allusion to prostitution is really resonating and I'm sure it does with others who have evaluated the balance of roles, power and work distribution to be inequitable and unsatisfactory.
ETA: BG - sorry, just saw your post (and just clarified mine)! The infidelity points weren't related to your posts The 'habit' thing I still have a problem with, because I don't like the idea of having sex regularly being the other 'habit', ITMS. I don't want it to be habitual. I want something else for it. We're getting there. I get more out of sex when it's more than the habitual "the lights are out, roll over and feel sexy". If 'habitual' means caresses throughout our time together during the day, nice things said from time to time, then 'habitual' sex ensuing from that 'priming' would be acceptable! I am a lot more physical in that way that DP ever has been, so I do feel that deficiency and require it to feel valued as a person and valued sexually. If DP just figuratively knocks on my door at the end of a day of running this household I just feel like pretending I'm not home, because my reserves are low. I can tell you and DH have a very different dynamic going on, and I really love that. We're working on our own groove, and it's not going to be based on making intercourse a priority, but on all that goes before that. That's important to me and I won't be steamrolled by public opinion on that, let alone by what would be most convenient for DP!
Similar to what Steve Biddulph writes about, I don't like 'ejaculation-chasing' sex. It's not fun, and feels more chore-ish than anything. Sex is not my duty - it is my right to enjoy it, too.

[Taurean]

Just Me - you have said everything else I would have loved to have said but couldn't find the right words. Well done

[Yeddi]

I think everyone has had interesting and valid points. I've been wondering though, do you think there is a connection with the ability to or ease of orgasm and the weight of priority a woman places on sex?

The stats say (I don't know how accurate these are) that only 30% of woman can orgasm during sex, and that another 30% have never orgasmed at all. Logically (to me anyway) that women who fall into these categories would not see sex in the same light as a woman who does usually orgasm. Also, as most men rarely don't orgasm during sex is this why it's normally seen as more important by them? The energy required is worth the payoff, and so they find the energy. Sure, sex can be pleasurable without orgasm but it's a different kind of pleasure iykwim.

I know personally, that the reason why sex is most probably so important to me is because I rarely don't orgasm and I usually get to ride that train more than once (sorry, I know TMI), however, if that wasn't the case I'm fairly confident I would have a different view on the importance of sex in the relationship. If orgasm was hard work, or non-existant my ability to "get in the mood" would be directly affected in kind.

Thoughts?

[briggsy's girl]

ETA: BG - sorry, just saw your post (and just clarified mine)! The infidelity points weren't related to your posts The 'habit' thing I still have a problem with, because I don't like the idea of having sex regularly being the other 'habit', ITMS. I don't want it to be habitual. I want something else for it. We're getting there. I get more out of sex when it's more than the habitual "the lights are out, roll over and feel sexy". If 'habitual' means caresses throughout our time together during the day, nice things said from time to time, then 'habitual' sex ensuing from that 'priming' would be acceptable! I am a lot more physical in that way that DP ever has been, so I do feel that deficiency and require it to feel valued as a person and valued sexually. If DP just figuratively knocks on my door at the end of a day of running this household I just feel like pretending I'm not home, because my reserves are low. I can tell you and DH have a very different dynamic going on, and I really love that. We're working on our own groove, and it's not going to be based on making intercourse a priority, but on all that goes before that. That's important to me and I won't be steamrolled by public opinion on that, let alone by what would be most convenient for DP!
Similar to what Steve Biddulph writes about, I don't like 'ejaculation-chasing' sex. It's not fun, and feels more chore-ish than anything. Sex is not my duty - it is my right to enjoy it, too.

i guess this is the thing that has happened for us - intimacy seems to breed intimacy - and not just DTD intimacy. I don't know if i have an unusual partner, but i know when we're meeting sexually, we're also meeting on a lot of other intimate levels. Things like being out in the shed talking about something, he will kiss me on the nose or stand behind me and hug me. if we're sitting outside watching DD play, he will hold my hand. And yes, he does this stuff to a lesser degree when we're not DTD as often, but it seems to be more pronounced - and maybe it's sex leading to intimacy leading to more sex kwim??

this is all said from my own experience though - so maybe i just have a partner that has a similar language of love to me


as to the exhaustion thing that has been mentioned - and the statement that being a parent is the most exhausting thing most have lived - i will agree it can be extremely tiring - but chronic fatigue syndrome makes this seem like a walk in the park for me! i have CFS recurrences (and glandular fever if i'm honest) semi-regularly. haven't really had one since becoming a mum, but i know how much worse i felt with that than i have ever felt, even at my tiredest, as a parent

[Arcadia]

do you think there is a connection with the ability to or ease of orgasm and the weight of priority a woman places on sex?

I think thats a really interesting point Yeddi and I would also like to hear people's experiences.

Ive never (ever) had trouble with orgasms and yet twice a week is enough sex for me. Anything less than once a week and I start looking for it, but I really do need to be coaxed into more than twice weekly. DH could go every day, and sometimes that has been hard. but then again, we've been together since we were 16, and I have definitely noticed our libidos are matching up the older we get (DH slowing, while mine is increasing)...

I would be interested to hear other's thoughts too.

[Roryrory]

And boy, do I remember eating humble pie about my assumptions, not just when the kids came along and changed my world view, but even during pregnancy I changed my mind on things! ....... The louder you bleat about things you're convinced about, in the arrogance of ignorance (as I say, I had this arrogance, too!), the harder it is to back up the truck

Ain't that the truth!

Glad this thread seems to be back "on topic" and hasn't degraded back into a women-attacking-other-women thread (which those of you who know me in here will know I HATE!)

But to get back to Freya's posts:

I guess what Im trying to do is make sure everyone who is involved in this discussion understand the 'other side' of the coin. It isnt always just a case of cant be bothereds or the Im tireds or just simply 'being selfish'. Its not a black and white issue.

Absolutely honey, and I am sorry you felt judged by this threat As I said in the OP there are many reasons women don't want sex - I just didn't want those who were in the "can't be bothereds" weren't missing out because of some perceived idea that a "good mother" only focuses on their baby and has no time for her partner.

[briggsy's girl]

I think everyone has had interesting and valid points. I've been wondering though, do you think there is a connection with the ability to or ease of orgasm and the weight of priority a woman places on sex?

The stats say (I don't know how accurate these are) that only 30% of woman can orgasm during sex, and that another 30% have never orgasmed at all. Logically (to me anyway) that women who fall into these categories would not see sex in the same light as a woman who does usually orgasm. Also, as most men rarely don't orgasm during sex is this why it's normally seen as more important by them? The energy required is worth the payoff, and so they find the energy. Sure, sex can be pleasurable without orgasm but it's a different kind of pleasure iykwim.

I know personally, that the reason why sex is most probably so important to me is because I rarely don't orgasm and I usually get to ride that train more than once (sorry, I know TMI), however, if that wasn't the case I'm fairly confident I would have a different view on the importance of sex in the relationship. If orgasm was hard work, or non-existant my ability to "get in the mood" would be directly affected in kind.

Thoughts?

Again - personally speaking - i usually O - DH tends to make sure of it. Even during a quickie, he won't "let go" himself unless I have O'd. But i don't see that as a priority - i enjoy making love to DH. i don't always O, but i enjoy the closeness that comes with it, so i tend to prioritise it as part of our relationship. It doesn't mean i judge anyone that doesn't prioritise it. Each to their own. It really does come down to people making their own decisions.

i guess for me, when i read the OP, and even going into it further, i have fixated on intimacy rather than intercourse. and perhaps my own relationship, and the dynamic within it, has clouded my view. i do, personally, know women that use sex as a bargaining tool or "weapon", and i don't agree that is healthy for any relationship, either before or after having a child - and that was probably where i was posting from. it's not about telling anyone to put out. it's not about telling anyone to take one for the team. more about suggesting that, if intimacy is lacking, to look at what the base cause is and work on it for the health of your own relationship.

[misty]

I think everyone has had interesting and valid points. I've been wondering though, do you think there is a connection with the ability to or ease of orgasm and the weight of priority a woman places on sex?

The stats say (I don't know how accurate these are) that only 30% of woman can orgasm during sex, and that another 30% have never orgasmed at all. Logically (to me anyway) that women who fall into these categories would not see sex in the same light as a woman who does usually orgasm. Also, as most men rarely don't orgasm during sex is this why it's normally seen as more important by them? The energy required is worth the payoff, and so they find the energy. Sure, sex can be pleasurable without orgasm but it's a different kind of pleasure iykwim.

I know personally, that the reason why sex is most probably so important to me is because I rarely don't orgasm and I usually get to ride that train more than once (sorry, I know TMI), however, if that wasn't the case I'm fairly confident I would have a different view on the importance of sex in the relationship. If orgasm was hard work, or non-existant my ability to "get in the mood" would be directly affected in kind.

Thoughts?

Not really sure, it's an interesting theory. BUT I can honestly say, I have never had an issue on that front, so it is definitely not the reason I go through periods of not wanting sex. My reasons are more likely to be phyisical pain, complete exhaustion, wanting my body to myself (big one when I have a small baby and am breastfeeding all the time) or I am angry at DH about something.

[Smoke Jaguar]

I really recommend fellas read "Manhood" by Steve Biddulph, and even us chicks to read it to get an idea of how our men got to be how they are (it's not 'natural' - it's conditioned). He states the case for us ladies for more INTIMACY, over sex (where intimacy does make sex better, when sex does ensue).
BG - I see where you're coming from. There have been some other posters who are more talking about spreading legs.
And, really, after 24 hours of nurturing, giving, touching, being on the ball with kids, putting the onus on MOTHERS to get creative with intimacy is just plain unfair. You can feel pretty understandably unsexy from all the other putting out, and the instigation really is more helpful when it comes from the other half, even just in recognition of the drain on personal resources for the emotional wellbeing of the family. Ya know, just at least!

[Taurean]

wanting my body to myself (big one when I have a small baby and am breastfeeding all the time)

Thats a big one for me too. Not that I say no much to sex (due to reasons I mentioned in my earlier post) but I honestly couldn't have cared less about sex until I stopped BF. My libido really returned in full force once I stopped BF. I guess my hormones had a lot to do with it but I know, even now, there are some days when I just want to have my body to myself.

[Astrid]

Mmmm, the orgasm theory does not work here. Pre kids I was horny as all hell, but did not orgasm easily, if at all. Still did not stop me having sex and now after kids, does not stop me wanting it. For me when I have not wanted sex it is due to other things going on.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Oh, no, Astrid - some here would have you believe that if you just had sex, the other problems would dissipate!

[Nai]

Personally I never used to have trouble O'ing but after DD2 it took about 12 months until I got my mojo back but even though now I still O pretty much every time it still doesn't make me want it more than twice a week (if that)

[Astrid]

Oh, no, Astrid - some here would have you believe that if you just had sex, the other problems would dissipate!

Oops sorry Maya - had a wrong word in my last post (joys of kids talking whilst I type) I was only referring to the orgasm theory. Otherwise in "general" I am pro saying yes, even if not fully in the mood.